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 insaniak wrote:
I don't think he's saying it's a failure. Simply that he expected it to be bigger.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I suppose I'll have to choose my words super-ultra-carefully next time?

 Vermonter wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
Then there's the fact that most of what they're offering, people already purchased in DZ2. had they done this campaign before DZ2, I think there would have been significantly more interest and it would be doing wat better.

I think this aspect is really hurting them. I know they'd like to run this like KOW 2 with army deals alone and are resistant to adding value to the base pledges a la Deadzone, but I think slowing interest is going to back them into a corner. Hard sells like limiting ship bundles to 3 of the same kind, or refusing to do any pledges based on new stuff alone, may make the KS pledges easier to pack and ship, but there is zero benefit to the customer, and right now customers are voting with their money. If it's supposed to encourage skirmish players uninterested in Warpath to spend more and pick it up anyway to get better deals, how is that strategy working out?

I don't disagree with your assessment but I think it's also important to note that the Warpath rules are a long way from being anywhere near finalized and the Firefight rules are even farther away from being a finished product. I think some of the minis are nice and the deals are good but I don't want to buy armies for a game that doesn't exist yet and that I don't know if I'll even want to play. I think the desire to buy an army to proxy in a different game would be minimal and without much of a finished game with which to entice people. I think that is leaving a lot of people on the sidelines taking a wait and see approach rather than jumping in and committing to building and painting one or more armies for a game that they may end up not being interested in once the rules are done.

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I suppose I'll have to choose my words super-ultra-carefully next time?

Hey! Plastic army-mens is serious business, bud so be careful not to defame the most holy of holies ( insert whatever company someone's invested too much emotion into).

I agree that the lag has to do with a combination of factors; biggest for me is lack of rules direction; they don't appear to know where their rules are going to wind up. Spin the roulette wheel and see if the ball lands on hubs, multi-basing or some bastard child in between, then spin the wheel the next day for a different result.

I don't think anybody expects a polished product but it would have been nice if they had gone into this thing with at least an concrete idea/concept.

What's killing it for me is that I have all the models I need from DZ since they just threw tons of free crap at me so all I would be interested in would be vehicles but what they're showing so far does not inspire me. I suppose everyone else who's sitting on the sidelines has their own reason but these are mine.

Why it isn't a contender in my eyes.
It doesn't feel like the factions are being developed as existing in a universe so much as little plastic dudesment for sale.
40k (as derivative as it is, has tons and tons of fluff and character).

Additionally, these rules and Mantics existing philosophy has felt very fly by the seat of your pants.. even when they swear up and down that they're developing something thoroughly.

We're getting beard tanks, face jets, earbots, rules about cheese (was that for real??), you can hub if you want to, and a rules system for mass combat that the creator seems to wish had been in 10mm instead of 28mm. (if you missed that bit, there was discussion from the creators about 10mm WP).

Add to that a KS full of models that.. again.. a lot of us already have.. there's no way this was primed for big numbers.

The Kickstarter has zero wow-factor. The rules ... they don't even exist but are contentious in their current incarnation.

I want this game to be awesome. As someone who played Magic The Gathering in the 90s, I saw a lot of "coulda been" CCGs come along and people were wearing those shirts for games whose names I can't even remember. Over the years you really only have a very very slim market of other games that survived and the two that I can think of have cartoons and child-predator tactics to keep them afloat. Unless Mantic has a candy-van somewhere they better figure something out fast or they're going to end up like Hyborian Gates (I remembered the name of one!!)

I think the expectation was that, if the stars had aligned properly and it was done at the right time in the right way, this could have been a $1.5 million kickstarter. However, it's probably going to end up at around 500k or so I think. Which is still good, of course and worth doing, but I think there was always the potential for more if some things in the past were different.

In saying that, I don't think Mantic are daft, they're probably more aware of the general environment than we are and most certainly didn't go into this kickstarter expecting to laugh the way to the bank.

Given Mantic mentioned earlier in the year that this KS was delayed for a more suited time I honestly think they were expecting better , or they just had to jump the gun to grab some cash.

Most of the negative points others have said are bang on with what I thought myself.

The value, for a title I'm being asked to prepay at least a year from release, based on renders and some sketchy rules, is not there. $30 vehicles ? Based on what we are being shown $30 should be the retail value, not the KS value.

This still feels like a version of Warpath that will be shelved in a year and half time ready for another KS attempt. Sure, if some people like it then great, I just don't personally see enough incentive to back this given other hobby gaming money choice available to me.

 Alex C wrote:
Yeah it's been pretty stagnant.

Tomorrow's add-on wednesday is supposed to be terrain heavy, maybe that will help.

Terrain would help, but just as folks already got plastic Enforcers and dwarves and rats, a lot of folks already bought a gak ton of terrain. Unless there is something new, it likely won't be a huge draw.

Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

 CptJake wrote:
Terrain would help, but just as folks already got plastic Enforcers and dwarves and rats, a lot of folks already bought a gak ton of terrain. Unless there is something new, it likely won't be a huge draw.

It would take something really new for me, as I'm really not a fan of Mantic's 'My God, It's full of cubes!' approach to terrain.

Reckon I'll be backing out of this pretty soon. Not really sure why I backed it in the first place as I'm not a sci-fi fan in general, but I guess I just like following KS as it fills my boring days at work. Nothing truly exciting to paint has emerged, so I don't see much reason to stay.

7 sins might get ridiculous and force me back in, then there is the Super Dungeon KS apparently soon which I might be all over if it's done right, so I can't justify wasting money on fairly generic sci-fi, even if it is very reasonably priced.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

I find their own explanation far more likely, that they needed to do it now so they have some sort of product hitting retail 2nd half of next year.

Everything they have in the works up to and including Deadzone will be at retail by the first half of 2016, and their secret licensed product got held up, so they needed Warpath to fill the gap.

What has surprised me most is how few $1 backers there are

18% of the total at the moment compared to 25% for deadzone infestation,

so there's not even such a strong interest in getting into the PM at a point where what's on offer in terms o rules/minis/etc might be clearer

Badly enough to forgo any decent marketing and go to KS with what, two painted 3D prints, 5 new renders and 2 new sketches? The rules were the same as the preview months ago with one lunch break's worth of revisions.

They could have done the KS a month later with properly prepared material and support and still released the models at the same time in 2016.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

They almost completely sold out of KoW a month ago, why do you keep saying they're desperate for cash? It's a narrative only you think is true

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Badly enough to forgo any decent marketing and go to KS with what, two painted 3D prints, 5 new renders and 2 new sketches? The rules were the same as the preview months ago with one lunch break's worth of revisions.

They could have done the KS a month later with properly prepared material and support and still released the models at the same time in 2016.

How did they fund multiple non-KS sculpts, molds and production for current/upcoming KoW items if they're so short of cash?

I'd say it's far more likely they're finally content with where their toolmaker's capability to produce vehicles is, they're in the lull between KoW and DZ:I waves, and they have some third party IP KS lined up for after the first of the year, so this was their slot to do it in the next six months and get product out for Christmas 2016.

And they could have done a much more successful Kickstarter a few weeks later and still released the models at the exact same time in 2016. It's not like rushing the KS will let them release earlier. Cause, ya know, they don't even have renders yet for half the stuff, and they don't even know what they're going to do about rules. A KS a month later wouldn't impact production time at all, because they certainly need that extra month. It would just let them hype it up more and have more product to show. The only difference an earlier KS makes is getting the cash earlier.

You're the only one believing the fanciful shortage of cash idea

 agnosto wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I suppose I'll have to choose my words super-ultra-carefully next time?

Hey! Plastic army-mens is serious business, bud so be careful not to defame the most holy of holies ( insert whatever company someone's invested too much emotion into).

It's not about emotional investment, but about scale.

I like the new battle-tech kickstarter. I hope it does well. But if somebody said they'd hope it would be a "serious contender" to a 180 Million dollar Juggernaught like .. Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto, I'd question their sense of scale.

I like Battletech. I never played GTA or Call of Duty. I still see the differences in scale. Same with Mantic and GW.

It is far more likely they favor smaller more consistent influxes of work and cash. A huge kickstarter will overwhelm areas of their supply chain (I'm thinking distribution as the obvious one), tool making and CAD->milling probably being the other.

It also makes sense that they would want to run a new KS before the last delivered since the resources at the start of the production sequence (sculpting, art etc) will have finished the last wodge of work while manufacture and distribution are still not finished.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty much it.

I suppose I'll have to choose my words super-ultra-carefully next time?

Hey! Plastic army-mens is serious business, bud so be careful not to defame the most holy of holies ( insert whatever company someone's invested too much emotion into).

It's not about emotional investment, but about scale.

^This.

Like I said in the other topic, Mantic know that this won't be the case now or even in the near future. Like KoW it's about developing a game that will be able to stand on it's own, which KoW can now do, which is why there is and will be non-KS'd models released for KoW. It's taken, what, 6 years (?) for KoW to get to that stage and 4 public rule releases. WP is on it's second one right now and FF will be on it's second one when that comes out*, so there's a long, long way to go.

*Counting and dividing each by whether it was an "individual" or "squad" based ruleset.

The reason it was launched now is due to production and development schedules. There was meant to be a licensed product launch now but for whatever reason it isn't ready so here we are instead.

Also, the total is not that important to Mantic, the objective is to get the books published. If that means people delay sales until it hits retail, that's not a bad thing as Mantic is trying to adjust their approach so it works better for retailers.

There are retailers that carry Mantic?

If I include the word "Mantic" in any sentence at my FLGS, the manager cuts me off with "I don't give a gak"

I just had my first flick through of the Warpath product base since it first launched, and my initial impression was a resounding....'meh'. Nothing seemed to grab me, all the sculpts seemed chunkier than a Space Marine in Tetris armour (even when they were skinny, which was quite an achievement), and for some reason, everything looks a bit like a cheap plastic kid's toy(and not in a good way).

Not for me, I don't think.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

I can tell you straight away that this is completely bogus. Mantic are not in the least bit desperate for cash and right now have the healthiest books they've ever had.

I've my own theory for why this KS was brought forward and have to stress this is complete conjecture on my part and nothing to do with any kind of insider knowledge. I suspect that Ronnie has some inside information about upcoming 40k changes (Age of Heresy perhaps?) similar to how he knew AoS was coming. By the time the major 40k change hits (if there is one coming - again this is pure conjecture) he wants to have a solid product ready to offer disenfranchised 40k players. In order to get timing as good as they did with KoW then they need to start proper development now. If they leave it any later then they risk the 40k exodus missing them completely, same as if KoW hadn't been ready for another year or so and missed the WHFB exodus.

 Daedleh wrote:
I suspect that Ronnie has some inside information about upcoming 40k changes (Age of Heresy perhaps?) similar to how he knew AoS was coming. By the time the major 40k change hits (if there is one coming - again this is pure conjecture) he wants to have a solid product ready to offer disenfranchised 40k players. .

Indeed... Given that we already know the Horus Heresy stuff is coming, it's entirely possible that they just wanted to have this kickstarter up and running before everyone went and spent all of their cash on tht instead.

 insaniak wrote:

 Daedleh wrote:
I suspect that Ronnie has some inside information about upcoming 40k changes (Age of Heresy perhaps?) similar to how he knew AoS was coming. By the time the major 40k change hits (if there is one coming - again this is pure conjecture) he wants to have a solid product ready to offer disenfranchised 40k players. .

Indeed... Given that we already know the Horus Heresy stuff is coming, it's entirely possible that they just wanted to have this kickstarter up and running before everyone went and spent all of their cash on tht instead.

If Horus heresy: Age of the Emperor is as much of a complete shower of gak as Age of Sigmar turned out to be - and given the ominous statement from Rountree in the last report, it's almost certainly heading that way - then I don't think very many people are going to be spending their money on it anyway; more about Mantic (and Warlord for that matter) positioning themselves to have a quality 28mm product, shiny and well populated with SKUs, on the shelves for when the bomb drops, because people aren't going to wait around very long when it does.

It's an... interesting thought. I don't think 40k players will jump ship all that readily, though. 40k is already much closer to AoS than WHFB was, down to barely having any meaningful points structure and army composition rules left as is. Anyone who can still play it now (I can't) will probably be able to play the new thing.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
It's an... interesting thought. I don't think 40k players will jump ship all that readily, though. 40k is already much closer to AoS than WHFB was, down to barely having any meaningful points structure and army composition rules left as is. Anyone who can still play it now (I can't) will probably be able to play the new thing.

If you play and collect nothing but Marines or Chaos (or Chaos Marines!), sure. Think you might find a few other armies consigned to the silly rules section and bereft of new releases forever, though.

Even if HH is "AoS Sci-fi", I think any seismic damage to 40k would have to also be predicated upon GW withdrawing 40k from sale like 8th Ed - I just don't see that part happening.

Yeah but then again, how many people (who didn't have inside info) actually saw them ending WHFB as a game and withdrawing all 8th related material from sale? It took rumours and photos of 8th material being stuffed in return to sender boxes, a fortnight before AoS hit retail, before even the pessimists first figured out what was happening

GW are a sequential terrible decision machine, it makes sense for Mantic, Warlord and anyone else wanting to get into the market segment to position their product ready to benefit from the next terrible decision cluster.

The thing is, while Mantic is a lot smaller, before Warpath there effectively wasn't ANY viable contender or alternative choice to 40K. So if you didn't like 40K's Gothic fantasy counter-reformation aesthetic, and you wanted to play a game with multiple hard plastic army options, you were just out of luck. Granted, Mantic's armies aren't entirely hard plastic either, but even so, after this KS an alternative will be out there. That's new, at least on this scale.

Maybe not new for very long, with Maelstrom's Edge (although that's skirmish) coming and Gates of Antares starting to show an interest in producing plastic minis. In fact, I hope a number of other companies break the hard plastic sci-fi barrier in the coming years, because I love modding and I love variety.

The other thing about Heresy-era minis coming and Mantic's Warpath line is that it provides the perfect confluence to stage some of future Warhammer's most interesting battles - the pre-Grimdark era of the wars of compliance. I'm pretty much out of 40K now except for getting bits to do mods with, and still enjoying the odd book here and there. But staging compliance war battles vs. Mantic's sci-fi armies might even get me back into buying some GW product. Particularly since I'd do it with an open future in mind, where the triumph of Chaos isn't assured and the Horus Heresy's outcome isn't engraved on a holy stone tablet. I really liked the hope vibe in Horus Rising, before everything fell apart.

It's a shame that GW themselves can't launch an alternative sci-fi line with a completely different flavor. They have the money and resources to do so easily, but they're powerless to try it because of their brand (and business-wise, it wouldn't make any sense), so only companies with much less wherewithal can attempt it.