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 Bottle wrote:
The manager is experienced from a number of previous stores, and seems like an alright guy. Maybe just stuck inbetween the rock and a hard place GW have created with crazy targets and no FW delivers in store.

Not naming and shaming my local one-man-store either, but the manager there had pulled something like a 20 or 25% sales increase on the previous guy in well under a year, and was still let go due to not hitting sales targets. Everyone was astounded. Considering we got a new manager every rotation, I can only speculate that those targets are not vastly adjusted to accommodate such things.

If this is true, then the pressures must be very hard on them.

I've always fancied working for GW, but I wouldn't view it as a long term career move due to how high the goalposts seemingly are.

It may not just be a case of hitting those targets, but also hitting those targets by selling very specific items, mainly their starters above all else alongside those new weekly releases.

New product sales aren't measured. Core games, hobby starter sets and intro activity are all measured. If a store is smashing targets but not selling starter sets, they are heading towards a quiet period. If sales are good and intro activity is high, the store will grow.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
This really isn't something anyone deserves to lose their job over, especially as single-man-store GW managers are up against it to keep theirs to begin with. Let's not get too pitchforks and torches here.

And yes, jonolikespie hit what I'm getting at, there.

Although I would argue it's less about the personal ego of who made the sale, and more that like eating a banana in a florist, if a customer asks what's going on, it's difficult to steer that into a sale.
Arguably something you bought in store two weeks ago is no longer making him or her an active profit, but it can be redirected into one.

Yes, this really is something that he deserves to lose his job over.

Because he is hurting the bottom line.

My own reaction would be to not buy from the store, and let everyone that I know not to buy there either.

And unlike the OP I would put the location of the offending store right in the thread.

For every person turned away, it is reasonable to expect that there will be an equal number walking away.

Each one of whom might have spent money.

The Auld Grump

Depends how you go about it. Saying no to FW isn't the same as banning the player. They would still be welcome to play 40k or AoS. If they only play 30k, it won't affect their bottom line beyond the occasional paint pot. And I'm sorry to say grump, you moaning to friends about how you feel wronged by a legitimate decision wouldn't influence their spending as much as you would hope, if at all.

Put your pitchfork away, Bottle has already said there'll be no naming and shaming of an otherwise amenable person.

This is not a transgression against someone actually purchasing from the store, and if it's hurting GW's bottom line, it'll come up in his performance review.

Wishing someone to lose their job in a recession over an online interpretation of a situation that we do not know both sides of is mildly ridiculous at best, and unpleasant at worst.

Buttery Commissar wrote:Put your pitchfork away, Bottle has already said there'll be no naming and shaming of an otherwise amenable person.

Oh, but what is the fun without the outrage!

Really, the only reason that the manager should be warned is if he's breaking GW's rules that say that FW games are permitted. If such rules don't exist (and I think JamesY is in a pretty good position to know ), they've broken no rules, so why would they lose their job?

Now, on the other hand, I don't think there's anything wrong politely suggesting to GW HQ that it would be to the company's benefit if Forge World games (30k) could be played in Games Workshop stores. It DOES help the company's bottom line.

JamesY wrote:Depends how you go about it. Saying no to FW isn't the same as banning the player. They would still be welcome to play 40k or AoS. If they only play 30k, it won't affect their bottom line beyond the occasional paint pot. And I'm sorry to say grump, you moaning to friends about how you feel wronged by a legitimate decision wouldn't influence their spending as much as you would hope, if at all.

There are other games, too! For instance, last year, there was a Space Hulk set all ready to go on a table in our neck of the woods (in the GW store). Models -- some painted -- tiles and everything. No obligation. I mean, what else could you ask for? I'm sure they'd be cool with Execution Force, any of the WD magazine games, etc.

Kind of beside the point... but is this really even a "thing"? Half of the 30k collection is a PITA to transport, and the models are expensive as all hell. You'd think that two people with their thousands-of-dollars armies with any number of ginormous, fragile resin models would rather game somewhere else like a semi-private gaming club or each others' homes. Among other things, most stores max out at 6x4 tables, and if you have big armies/big models, 8 and 12 foot tables is kinda where you want to be, right? Not to mention, being able to leave your models there afterwards if you have to is a huge advantage.

Disallowing forgeworld would feth over every;

30k Player
Red Scorpions Player
CSM Player
Space Sharks Player
Salamanders (to an extent) Player
Player who likes cooler tanks
People who like huge greater daemons

Profit still goes to HQ and gets reallocated anyhow so IDK why they're complainong.

And? Look at this 'un.

You are clearly missing the point.
You tried to make a joke about hobby supplies not paying the bills, when clearly there is money in it.

This is what I'm talking about, what BC is talking about. This is what people don't get. This is not Sam trying to coax Norm back to the bar because they're buddies. You're only a valued customer as long as you keep putting money in the till. Their till. The manager's till. The definition of a customer.

I really don't think you understand business.
You are applying GW's own short sighted business mentality to this.

Just because a customer doesn't want to buy or play non-FW today, doesn't mean that he won't in the future. He is still a potential customer.
You talk about these hypothetical new guys coming in and spending money, but it is existing customers that make a business both reliable and profitable.
Short term vs long term planning, you got to keep the customer base happy.

Pushing potential customers away from a store, because they bought one of your products at another branch, is bad business. Plain and simple.
If you let people come and play in the store, they are more likely to buy things than if they didn't.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:

Space Sharks Player

Does FW really sell space sharks parts? O.O Does anyone actually PLAY space sharks? Has anyone actually EVER played space sharks?

Man, I haven't heard about them for like, decades, and remember laughing so hard when I saw them somewhere way back.

Edit: apologies in advance if I have offended any Space Sharks players All in jest and fun.

Forge World doesn't use the Space Shark name, instead calling them Carcharodons.

I realy dislike how some people insist "30k" is a separate game from "40k" that can't cross over. That's like saying Warmachine and Hoards should never be played together.


As for the space sharks. They never realy made anything for them beside this fellow.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Tyberos-The-Red-Wake

But supplement rules for codex:SM to represent them are available from forgeworld.

 JamesY wrote:
Depends how you go about it. Saying no to FW isn't the same as banning the player. They would still be welcome to play 40k or AoS. If they only play 30k, it won't affect their bottom line beyond the occasional paint pot. And I'm sorry to say grump, you moaning to friends about how you feel wronged by a legitimate decision wouldn't influence their spending as much as you would hope, if at all.

Kinda off topic, but I don't think you're in a position to tell him what his friends would do. You don't know him. You don't know his friends. If I tell my friends that something is bad and they should stay away from it, they would do so because they trust me and we have more or less the same values we uphold. And I would do the same if the case was reversed.

Now I'm not saying I'll tell my friends to boycott a store. But if I stop playing at a store my friends would stop going there as well, because you know, we enjoy each other's company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

And? Look at this 'un.

You are clearly missing the point.
You tried to make a joke about hobby supplies not paying the bills, when clearly there is money in it.

This is what I'm talking about, what BC is talking about. This is what people don't get. This is not Sam trying to coax Norm back to the bar because they're buddies. You're only a valued customer as long as you keep putting money in the till. Their till. The manager's till. The definition of a customer.

I really don't think you understand business.
You are applying GW's own short sighted business mentality to this.

Just because a customer doesn't want to buy or play non-FW today, doesn't mean that he won't in the future. He is still a potential customer.
You talk about these hypothetical new guys coming in and spending money, but it is existing customers that make a business both reliable and profitable.
Short term vs long term planning, you got to keep the customer base happy.

Pushing potential customers away from a store, because they bought one of your products at another branch, is bad business. Plain and simple.
If you let people come and play in the store, they are more likely to buy things than if they didn't.

Pretty much. Surely, having a customer who buys the occasional pot of paint AND potentially will buy 40k models in the future is a whole lot of gak better than having no fething customers.

To get new blood, you need a community to pull people. Where are these hypothetical new customers who will only buy 40k come from? Out of thin air?

We are speaking as though Bottle's gaming group could somehow wipe out the economy of a store by leaving.

Say you have an active gaming group or two at a GW store, you're talking low thirties to maybe fifty people max, unless it's in a major UK city. My old local peaked at mid twenties for AoS evening events this summer.
Even if every single one of those people literally take their toys home and leaves, I cannot believe that it is going to kill a store. In the long term, that many people will likely drop out of the hobby locally across the year anyway. And to damage the store noticeably you'd have to assume that they were solely bankrolling it to begin with.

Where are these hypothetical new customers who will only buy 40k come from? Out of thin air?

Off the top of my head, Christmas, birthdays, parents, mothers and fathers in law, school leaving presents, folk like me who put online orders in using the store till to pay them a little homage... Folks who're working but like to drop in and pick items up. I'm sure that JamesY could tell us a little about the average demographic if he has time or inclination to revisit that thought-space.

Another threat to GW is damage to their image and reputation if people complain and it's misconstrued as that manager not holding up their ideals of treating customers fairly or warmly in store.
I have once put in a legitimate written complaint about staff (repeated damage to items entrusted to a manager), and it was taken very seriously. I would hesitate to invoke that upon anyone without good reason.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
We are speaking as though Bottle's gaming group could somehow wipe out the economy of a store by leaving.

Say you have an active gaming group or two at a GW store, you're talking low thirties to maybe fifty people max, unless it's in a major UK city. My old local peaked at mid twenties for AoS evening events this summer.
Even if every single one of those people literally take their toys home and leaves, I cannot believe that it is going to kill a store. In the long term, that many people will likely drop out of the hobby locally across the year anyway. And to damage the store noticeably you'd have to assume that they were solely bankrolling it to begin with.

Warning: anecdotal evidence ahead. Local FLGS we used to frequent shut down. This was back when I was playing MtG competitively, and our group goes there daily. The manager changed, and were kinda pugnacious. We left as a group and started playing in a different store. The other regulars soon followed because it's fun playing with more people. Last time I saw the store the tables are empty during a Friday night (which should be full because of Friday Night Magic). It closed a month after.

Now I don't know how much impact of us leaving as a group caused on the stores finances, but I'm pretty certain it's a huge chunk since we're also the ones bringing new blood to the group.

Another threat to GW is damage to their image and reputation if people complain and it's misconstrued as that manager not holding up their ideals of treating customers fairly or warmly in store.

Whether we believe that banning 30k from the store is a fair decision or not (for the record, I'm pretty neutral about it), it's pretty obvious that it will affect the 30k players negatively and it would affect the image and reputation of the store if they start talking about it. Why make enemies with potential customers (who actually obught GW products, no less) if the image and reputation of the store is that important? In my opinion, the manager has the right to ban what he/she wants and there is nothing morally wrong about it. I just don't think it's a good decision from a business standpoint.

@ heartsrenagade. I am in such a position. 16 yrs of retail, and 10 in management, I have seen countless customers making the same claim when an issue hasn't been resolved the way they want. Never makes a difference. If it's a legit decision, and not the staff being rude or breaking trade law, then why would a friend not buy something that they need/want just because you didn't like that decision?

 heartserenade wrote:
Whether we believe that banning 30k from the store is a fair decision or not (for the record, I'm pretty neutral about it), it's pretty obvious that it will affect the 30k players negatively and it would affect the image and reputation of the store if they start talking about it. Why make enemies with potential customers (who actually obught GW products, no less) if the image and reputation of the store is that important? In my opinion, the manager has the right to ban what he/she wants and there is nothing morally wrong about it. I just don't think it's a good decision from a business standpoint.

As a counter example...

The manager lets people play anything on his tables. Because he has terrain and a good meeting point, lots of his former 40k customers start playing Warmachine. They still buy them occasional 40k set once in a blue moon, and they buy dice and glue and paints.
If he stopped them playing Warmachine there, would he be justified? The Warmachine group would suffer, the players might be angry at the store, and he might lose a few sales. But no-one would claim they have a right to play WMH there, or that its necessarily a good business decision to let people play there.

From the manager's point of view, people playing 30k in the store, or playing with oop models or forgeworld models, may as well be playing Warmachine or X-Wing. From his point of view, the gaming space in the store exists to encourage in-person sales to him at the store, to help his sales numbers and his job.

If you want to blame anyone, its the head office GW people, not the store manager. They're the ones setting sales targets for each store and ensuring that each store should be profitable.

Personally, I think the purpose and aim of the GW stores should be to promote the GW hobby in general rather than to individually generate profit. Its entirely possible that a GW store that individually makes 50k loss per year, could be the nexus of 100k sales through the Webstore and independents. The GW store should function more as advertising or value-add than a profit-maker in its own right. Then it would make sense to allow 30k and Forgeworld as it exposes people to the wider world of GW products. But while the store managers have a mandate to hit sales targets, their personal goals are at odds with (what I think should be) GW's goals.

I feel like you might be overestimating the demand for GW products... People certainly don't need them.

 JamesY wrote:
@ heartsrenagade. I am in such a position. 16 yrs of retail, and 10 in management, I have seen countless customers making the same claim when an issue hasn't been resolved the way they want. Never makes a difference. If it's a legit decision, and not the staff being rude or breaking trade law, then why would a friend not buy something that they need/want just because you didn't like that decision?

16 years of retail and you know his friends and their dynamic, somehow? Like that specific group, you know them and how they behave and how they listen to each other? That's like saying you know all about a specific relationship because you're a divorce lawyer. That's plain arrogance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trasvi wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
Whether we believe that banning 30k from the store is a fair decision or not (for the record, I'm pretty neutral about it), it's pretty obvious that it will affect the 30k players negatively and it would affect the image and reputation of the store if they start talking about it. Why make enemies with potential customers (who actually obught GW products, no less) if the image and reputation of the store is that important? In my opinion, the manager has the right to ban what he/she wants and there is nothing morally wrong about it. I just don't think it's a good decision from a business standpoint.

As a counter example...

The manager lets people play anything on his tables. Because he has terrain and a good meeting point, lots of his former 40k customers start playing Warmachine. They still buy them occasional 40k set once in a blue moon, and they buy dice and glue and paints.
If he stopped them playing Warmachine there, would he be justified? The Warmachine group would suffer, the players might be angry at the store, and he might lose a few sales. But no-one would claim they have a right to play WMH there, or that its necessarily a good business decision to let people play there.

The problem with this example is that it is considered rude in general to bring a competitor's products inside another store. You don't buy Mcdonald's and eat it inside Starbucks without ordering anything. So playing Warmahordes inside a GW store is understandly banned. No one will be upset. Banning playing GW products inside a GW store, however, will irritate people.

And from the POV of the bottom line of the store (ie, the manager trying to keep his job), Forgeworld products may as well be a competitor's products. You can't buy them in the store. The store doesn't get any money from pointing you towards them.
It might irritate people who've gotten used to doing things the old way... but they shouldn't have expected to be able to do things that way in the first place.

 heartserenade wrote:

The problem with this example is that it is considered rude in general to bring a competitor's products inside another store. You don't buy Mcdonald's and eat it inside Starbucks without ordering anything. So playing Warmahordes inside a GW store is understandly banned. No one will be upset. Banning playing GW products inside a GW store, however, will irritate people.

Alright, sorry. I couldn't resist. We all know that Burger King bought Tim Hortons, right? About eleven and a half big ones, it cost them (billion dollars).

So this would be like taking a triple whopper, fries, and XL coke into a Tim Hortons and chowing down because Timmies is a cooler place to hang out, has better tables and nice plugins for your laptop. Afterwards, maybe you'll even buy a donut for dessert. Either way, it's going to BK's bottom line, so the Tim Hortons manager should be all cool with it, right?

Essentially, the problem is that the GW manager doesn't see FW product as GW product. He (she) sees FW product as a competing product made by another company with common ownership, separate management, and separate distribution.

 Talys wrote:
Essentially, the problem is that the GW manager doesn't see FW product as GW product.

The problem is that the customer doesn't see it that way. That was my point.

If the customer does see eye to eye with the manager, he/she wouldn't dare playing FW in a GW shop in the first place, the same as people instinctively knowing it's rude to play WMH inside a GW store. Thus the customer is more likely to act more negatively, compared to a customer who wants to play WMH in a GW store. THIS IS WHY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT, because there's no discussion to be had if it's okay playing WMH in a GW store.

Honestly, people. Reading comprehension.

heartserenade wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
We are speaking as though Bottle's gaming group could somehow wipe out the economy of a store by leaving.

Say you have an active gaming group or two at a GW store, you're talking low thirties to maybe fifty people max, unless it's in a major UK city. My old local peaked at mid twenties for AoS evening events this summer.
Even if every single one of those people literally take their toys home and leaves, I cannot believe that it is going to kill a store. In the long term, that many people will likely drop out of the hobby locally across the year anyway. And to damage the store noticeably you'd have to assume that they were solely bankrolling it to begin with.

Warning: anecdotal evidence ahead. Local FLGS we used to frequent shut down. This was back when I was playing MtG competitively, and our group goes there daily. The manager changed, and were kinda pugnacious. We left as a group and started playing in a different store. The other regulars soon followed because it's fun playing with more people. Last time I saw the store the tables are empty during a Friday night (which should be full because of Friday Night Magic). It closed a month after.

Now I don't know how much impact of us leaving as a group caused on the stores finances, but I'm pretty certain it's a huge chunk since we're also the ones bringing new blood to the group.

I think you answered why that store failed. Totally different really as the manager is said to be a nice good guy.

Noir wrote:


I think you answered why that store failed. Totally different really as the manager is said to be a nice good guy.

Fair enough. The point I was trying to make is that gamers leaving in droves out of the store could shut a store down, but you were right that it might be irrelevant since their manager seems to at least not be an ass.

I think the biggest issue from my point of view in this thread is the misconception of what store gaming space is actually for.

In a GW store the gaming space is fundamentally advertising space. It's the only real advertising GW do even if they say they don't do any.

The gaming tables are there to promote both new and core product and generate sales by showing potential new customers how GW games work.

GW stores are not games clubs and in fact GW would very much like you to all play at home which is why it produces games tables and scenery. I know that isn't practical for most people, I live in London so certainly can't have a games table at home however GW doesn't see it that way and rather you gamed at a club if you can't game at home.

The point is there seems to be a perception that GW stores are a place to hang out and play games - they are not.

The games tables are primarily for promotional purposes, to run intro games or to promote products sold in store.

The fact that most GW managers will let you use their tables for anything else is a privalege, not a right.

I don't mean to sound harsh but I worked as a GW store manager for 9 years and worked as a retail manager for another 16 years for other companies and it frustrates me with the whole "customer is always right" argument.

GW stores are a business just like any other and the store manager needs to run a tight ship and more importantly make high volume sales of core product.

FW items are not (yet) core products and do nothing to promote the manager's sales so he is well within his rights to say people can't use them.

I think a blanket ban is a bit much, having FW upgrades on GW models couldn't hurt his sales targets but I suspect the blanket ban in this case is due to the prevalence of 30K gaming in his store.

I know what I have said above has already been said and many may disagree but the point is the manager has the right to disallow any sort of gaming in his store if he feels it isn't promoting sales. That's what the gaming tables are there for.

StraightSilver wrote:
The point is there seems to be a perception that GW stores are a place to hang out and play games - they are not.

And I think this is a misconception. I don't care that they aren't. They were. By not allowing it now they earn ill will from their customers.
Regardless of if that comes form the local manager or HQ, they offered a service once and are not now so customers may well refuse to spend money there because of that.

Playing in store is not a privilege, but neither should a store feel entitled to someone's money over an online store if they are not offering some sort of service online stores don't.

 heartserenade wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Essentially, the problem is that the GW manager doesn't see FW product as GW product.

The problem is that the customer doesn't see it that way. That was my point.

If the customer does see eye to eye with the manager, he/she wouldn't dare playing FW in a GW shop in the first place, the same as people instinctively knowing it's rude to play WMH inside a GW store. Thus the customer is more likely to act more negatively, compared to a customer who wants to play WMH in a GW store. THIS IS WHY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT, because there's no discussion to be had if it's okay playing WMH in a GW store.

Honestly, people. Reading comprehension.

People who buy Forge World products know what they're getting into. They're not first time gamers or hobbyists, they're usually not first time GW customers, and they know the difference between Forge World and Games Workshop. The distinction is pretty clear if you've dumped enough money to actually play a real game of 30k. Well, anyways, it's clear enough to everyone whom I have ever known who buys any amount of FW models. And you know, they can't play in most FLGS either.

But again, it's no different than the Burger King manager being cool with you having a Tim Horton's donut in his store, but not cool with you having your whole mean purchased from a competitor. He's not getting any credit, he's gotta clean up after you, and you're taking up space from someone who he could be making money off of. It doesn't matter if the manager understands that BK bought out Tim Hortons because everyone saw it on the news.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Regardless of if that comes form the local manager or HQ, they offered a service once and are not now so customers may well refuse to spend money there because of that.

Playing in store is not a privilege, but neither should a store feel entitled to someone's money over an online store if they are not offering some sort of service online stores don't.

But you know, sometimes things change?

You are absolutely right, though, that the store isn't entitled to anyone's money. They have to earn it, by providing some combination of a desirable product, customer service, and environment. If a customer doesn't feel there's any value to the store, of course, they should go elsewhere.

So far as 30k goes, you don't have much of a choice: if you want it, and live anywhere other than driving distance to Nottingham, you have to buy it online

 Talys wrote:
People who buy Forge World products know what they're getting into.

That they'll be told they can't use the products made by GW in GW stores because the manager is a dick?

No Talys. There's no "getting into" something when you buy FW. It's not a risk vs reward proposition, and any stigma placed upon FW models is asinine.

HBMC pretty much said what I want to say. Again, this wouldn't be an issue if it's clear cut that you can use FW in a GW store. BECAUSE OTHER GW STORES ALLOW FORGE WORLD. It's not something FW buyers "know they're into", whatever that means.

Well, I will certainly not blame the manager. He's trying to handle the insanity from higher ups, mainly.

This just shows how much pressure the managers get in first line - for wages not that high when compared to the level of responsabilities. That's the real sadness, here.