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 TheAuldGrump wrote:
No - it is reasonable for the FLGS to do so - but the GW store is owned by the same folks that own Forge World!

This is a major distinction.

The GW store is not a separate corporate entity - it is part and parcel with Forge World.

But, yes, the OP should call corporate and complain - and in the meantime take his business elsewhere.

The Auld Grump

No, its not really a major distinction. A store still has to be profitable in order to be viable. No profit=no store, regardless of how much money the people using the store buy from the company online. The assumption is if they're buying online, they will continue to buy online regardless of whether they have a physical store or not.

To the OP, have you thought about asking the store manager why he decided to ban Forge World product from the store?

Not as part of a chain, it is perfectly normal to run a store at a loss if it brings other advantages.

And what are those advantages? What kind of advantages can a non-profitable store provide?

 Talys wrote:
Regardless of whether it's a FLGS or a GW retail location, neither store manager has an incentive to allow FW, other than being nice to customers.

Didn't that chap who went to the investors' meeting mention that they all but said that if someone isn't spending money with them at that time, they aren't a customer? So, technically if you're just there for a game and don't buy anything, they don't care about them. Other than to be nice.

 Ghaz wrote:
And what are those advantages? What kind of advantages can a non-profitable store provide?

Brand exposure is a big one.

I worked for a retailer that maintained a really expensive store in a high-traffic tourist area. The store routinely missed its sales targets and was expensive to maintain (for example a flaming sign advertising the store which cost thousands of dollars a month to operate), but the company considered the loss reasonable because the high-profile location exposed the company to a wide range of domestic and foreign tourists. Tourists who would go home, seek out a local version of the store or hit the company's website to shop.

 Ghaz wrote:
And what are those advantages? What kind of advantages can a non-profitable store provide?

Mainly denying territory to your opposition, or sometimes maintaining a presence simply because your opposition is already there. Alternatively it can also be for PR/Advertising purposes, in a high profile location where it supports the image you're trying to create for your brand but where the actual business done isn't sufficient to cover the high overheads those sorts of location inevitably attract.

You take a holistic view when running a chain, and while if a specific location isn't making money you will definitely look hard at it and determine if other benefits make maintaining it worthwhile, individual stores making a loss isn't a concern if the entirety is making a profit.

IIRC GW Retail is actually barely breaking even last I checked, but that's a whole other discussion.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what are those advantages? What kind of advantages can a non-profitable store provide?

Mainly denying territory to your opposition, or sometimes maintaining a presence simply because your opposition is already there. Alternatively it can also be for PR/Advertising purposes, in a high profile location where it supports the image you're trying to create for your brand but where the actual business done isn't sufficient to cover the high overheads those sorts of location inevitably attract.

You take a holistic view when running a chain, and while if a specific location isn't making money you will definitely look hard at it and determine if other benefits make maintaining it worthwhile, individual stores making a loss isn't a concern if the entirety is making a profit.

IIRC GW Retail is actually barely breaking even last I checked, but that's a whole other discussion.

And what 'opposition' are you talking about with GW? Are they denying territory to a Battlefront store or a Privateer Press store? So with no 'opposition' to 'deny territory', what reason does GW have to keep a store that's not making a profit?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what are those advantages? What kind of advantages can a non-profitable store provide?

Mainly denying territory to your opposition, or sometimes maintaining a presence simply because your opposition is already there. Alternatively it can also be for PR/Advertising purposes, in a high profile location where it supports the image you're trying to create for your brand but where the actual business done isn't sufficient to cover the high overheads those sorts of location inevitably attract.

You take a holistic view when running a chain, and while if a specific location isn't making money you will definitely look hard at it and determine if other benefits make maintaining it worthwhile, individual stores making a loss isn't a concern if the entirety is making a profit.

IIRC GW Retail is actually barely breaking even last I checked, but that's a whole other discussion.

And what 'opposition' are you talking about with GW? Are they denying territory to a Battlefront store or a Privateer Press store? So with no 'opposition' to 'deny territory', what reason does GW have to keep a store that's not making a profit?

Any game store that moves into the area, and decides that they do not need to stock only GW.

And sell Battlefront.

And sell Privateer Press.

And sell Mantic.

And sell Wyrd.

And sell XWing.

And may even *gasp!* tell GW to go pound sand.


So, in answer to your question - All of the above.
The Auld Grump

Plausible scenario:

Joe and Jim are playing 30k with supremely awesome models on the table at a GW store that really showcase the Rule of Cool of a proper HH army.

Travis comes in, originally planning to buy DV or AoS and goes, OMG wow. MUST HAVE! Store manager says, well, you have to buy it from Forge World, because we don't sell that here. But we have these shiny objects! Take a look at these. They cost a lot less, and here are all the advantages of these plastic kits that have everything you need.

Travis goes, are you kidding? Those contemptors look so much cooler than the ven dreds. Your Imperial Knights look like roadkill beside the Reavers. I'm not going to buy crappy scouts when I can get legion recon! That storm raven looks like stocking coal beside the fire raptor. Gonna get me some FORGE WORLD!

Travis goes home, hits the FW website, sees that the army that Joe had was $8,000, and quietly decides to go buy Halo 5 instead.

Or maybe Travis is rich and buys $8,000 of FW models. Who knows? The manager certainly doesn't. He just knows he's out an AoS or DV sale.

 Talys wrote:
Plausible scenario:

Joe and Jim are playing 30k with supremely awesome models on the table at a GW store that really showcase the Rule of Cool of a proper HH army.

Travis comes in, originally planning to buy DV or AoS and goes, OMG wow. MUST HAVE! Store manager says, well, you have to buy it from Forge World, because we don't sell that here. But we have these shiny objects! Take a look at these. They cost a lot less, and here are all the advantages of these plastic kits that have everything you need.

Travis goes, are you kidding? Those contemptors look so much cooler than the ven dreds. Your Imperial Knights look like roadkill beside the Reavers. I'm not going to buy crappy scouts when I can get legion recon! That storm raven looks like stocking coal beside the fire raptor. Gonna get me some FORGE WORLD!

Travis goes home, hits the FW website, sees that the army that Joe had was $8,000, and quietly decides to go buy Halo 5 instead.

Or maybe Travis is rich and buys $8,000 of FW models. Who knows? The manager certainly doesn't. He just knows he's out an AoS or DV sale.

Totally plausible.

But, in Alternate World where GW didn't cannibalize their own customer base, said manager could lead Travis over to a computer terminal and assist him with his $8k FW order, and GW would give credit to the store where the order originated from.

Because in Alternate World GW would understand that the manager was adding to their bottom line even though he didn't sell anything in his store. That manager would also likely have Travis' support, and Travis may well play his new $8k army in the store and entice another future Travis into dropping cash on an army.

Best of all in Alternate World a thread like this wouldn't exist, because it would be too stupid to fathom that a company would dissuade its existing customers from playing in their stores for the crime of buying said company's high-end specialty items.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what are those advantages? What kind of advantages can a non-profitable store provide?

Mainly denying territory to your opposition, or sometimes maintaining a presence simply because your opposition is already there. Alternatively it can also be for PR/Advertising purposes, in a high profile location where it supports the image you're trying to create for your brand but where the actual business done isn't sufficient to cover the high overheads those sorts of location inevitably attract.

You take a holistic view when running a chain, and while if a specific location isn't making money you will definitely look hard at it and determine if other benefits make maintaining it worthwhile, individual stores making a loss isn't a concern if the entirety is making a profit.

IIRC GW Retail is actually barely breaking even last I checked, but that's a whole other discussion.

And what 'opposition' are you talking about with GW? Are they denying territory to a Battlefront store or a Privateer Press store? So with no 'opposition' to 'deny territory', what reason does GW have to keep a store that's not making a profit?

Any game store that moves into the area, and decides that they do not need to stock only GW.

And sell Battlefront.

And sell Privateer Press.

And sell Mantic.

And sell Wyrd.

And sell XWing.

And may even *gasp!* tell GW to go pound sand.


So, in answer to your question - All of the above.
The Auld Grump

GW by their own admission does absolutely no market research, yet you believe that they'll go into an area and find out what stores are in the area, what those stores are selling and what the people in those stores are buying and playing in those stores and somehow get the people not playing GW games to switch? You make it sound like they're running a C.I.A. operation and are giving them way too much credit. Its more likely they see a metropolitan area or an area where they know they have a number of business accounts and put in a store to get a bigger share of the pie. Then its all a matter of who blinks first, and if GW doesn't drive the other stores out before their own store becomes unprofitable it most likely never will.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
And what are those advantages? What kind of advantages can a non-profitable store provide?

Mainly denying territory to your opposition, or sometimes maintaining a presence simply because your opposition is already there. Alternatively it can also be for PR/Advertising purposes, in a high profile location where it supports the image you're trying to create for your brand but where the actual business done isn't sufficient to cover the high overheads those sorts of location inevitably attract.

You take a holistic view when running a chain, and while if a specific location isn't making money you will definitely look hard at it and determine if other benefits make maintaining it worthwhile, individual stores making a loss isn't a concern if the entirety is making a profit.

IIRC GW Retail is actually barely breaking even last I checked, but that's a whole other discussion.

And what 'opposition' are you talking about with GW? Are they denying territory to a Battlefront store or a Privateer Press store? So with no 'opposition' to 'deny territory', what reason does GW have to keep a store that's not making a profit?

You asked in general terms, I answered in kind.

If you want to make it about GW? Well, Grump already did that.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Totally plausible.

But, in Alternate World where GW didn't cannibalize their own customer base, said manager could lead Travis over to a computer terminal and assist him with his $8k FW order, and GW would give credit to the store where the order originated from.

Because in Alternate World GW would understand that the manager was adding to their bottom line even though he didn't sell anything in his store. That manager would also likely have Travis' support, and Travis may well play his new $8k army in the store and entice another future Travis into dropping cash on an army.

Best of all in Alternate World a thread like this wouldn't exist, because it would be too stupid to fathom that a company would dissuade its existing customers from playing in their stores for the crime of buying said company's high-end specialty items.

I don't think anyone is arguing that their practice in this regard isn't stupid and/ or short sighted. The issue here is that this problem does exist, along with heavy burdens on a GW shop's manager in terms of sales and potential sales growth.

I think the purpose of this thread has shifted more towards "how common is this?" rather than "can they do this?!" because obviously yes they can and do.

Last time I checked my username is heartserenade, not heartserenata.

Ghaz wrote:GW by their own admission does absolutely no market research, yet you believe that they'll go into an area and find out what stores are in the area, what those stores are selling and what the people in those stores are buying and playing in those stores and somehow get the people not playing GW games to switch?

Thus why they don't think running a store at a loss is good for business: because they don't think about the holistic picture.

 heartserenade wrote:
Thus why they don't think running a store at a loss is good for business: because they don't think about the holistic picture.

Holistic picture? Dude, you and I are just wallets with legs to them* if we aren't buying anything then we don't matter one iota.

*The upper management, I mean. I have a pretty good rapport with my local GW shop manager. He knows what I play, more or less what I have and has given me advice without the assumption that it would lead to a sale. He's a good guy and I like supporting him. His bosses, on the other hand...

Exactly.

So, I went to my FLGS today (picked up the Tau WD, posted lots of cool pics into N&R if anyone's interested), and asked them if it would be cool to play 30k with FW models there, just out of curiosity. Obviously, they don't sell FW there.

Answer was interesting

Essentially, if at least one of the players in a 2 player game is a regular customer, they're good with whatever you want to play there. He said that essentially, if you're a regular, feel free to pop a laptop and play video games -- they'll supply the wifi -- or set up and show off a train set if you want. If you're not a customer, it doesn't matter what game you bring... go and play where you want to spend money at.

They view their gaming space as a service for their patrons, independent of the games. Not that this directly relates to GW stores or is reflective of other stores. Just thought it was interesting enough to share

Well at least Talys has finally move onto that conversation he was having with nobody and is actually involved in the conversation that's been going on since page one.

Top marks there.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Totally plausible.

But, in Alternate World where GW didn't cannibalize their own customer base, said manager could lead Travis over to a computer terminal and assist him with his $8k FW order, and GW would give credit to the store where the order originated from.

Because in Alternate World GW would understand that the manager was adding to their bottom line even though he didn't sell anything in his store. That manager would also likely have Travis' support, and Travis may well play his new $8k army in the store and entice another future Travis into dropping cash on an army.

Best of all in Alternate World a thread like this wouldn't exist, because it would be too stupid to fathom that a company would dissuade its existing customers from playing in their stores for the crime of buying said company's high-end specialty items.

I don't think anyone is arguing that their practice in this regard isn't stupid and/ or short sighted. The issue here is that this problem does exist, along with heavy burdens on a GW shop's manager in terms of sales and potential sales growth.

I think the purpose of this thread has shifted more towards "how common is this?" rather than "can they do this?!" because obviously yes they can and do.

Really? I didn't get any of that latter bit from Talys' post. Instead I took his hypothetical to illustrate a defense of GW's business practices by showing the "need" for GW alienating its customers in the form of the manager losing sales.

Since people responded to with me on the topic, I'd hardly say I was speaking to myself.

But on the note of staying on-topic, HBMC, why not share with us what the GW store in your area has as a policy, if you know; or whether the independent you have has a liberal policy on FW models or FW games?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Plausible scenario:

Joe and Jim are playing 30k with supremely awesome models on the table at a GW store that really showcase the Rule of Cool of a proper HH army.

Travis comes in, originally planning to buy DV or AoS and goes, OMG wow. MUST HAVE! Store manager says, well, you have to buy it from Forge World, because we don't sell that here. But we have these shiny objects! Take a look at these. They cost a lot less, and here are all the advantages of these plastic kits that have everything you need.

Travis goes, are you kidding? Those contemptors look so much cooler than the ven dreds. Your Imperial Knights look like roadkill beside the Reavers. I'm not going to buy crappy scouts when I can get legion recon! That storm raven looks like stocking coal beside the fire raptor. Gonna get me some FORGE WORLD!

Travis goes home, hits the FW website, sees that the army that Joe had was $8,000, and quietly decides to go buy Halo 5 instead.

Or maybe Travis is rich and buys $8,000 of FW models. Who knows? The manager certainly doesn't. He just knows he's out an AoS or DV sale.

Totally plausible.

But, in Alternate World where GW didn't cannibalize their own customer base, said manager could lead Travis over to a computer terminal and assist him with his $8k FW order, and GW would give credit to the store where the order originated from.

Because in Alternate World GW would understand that the manager was adding to their bottom line even though he didn't sell anything in his store. That manager would also likely have Travis' support, and Travis may well play his new $8k army in the store and entice another future Travis into dropping cash on an army.

Best of all in Alternate World a thread like this wouldn't exist, because it would be too stupid to fathom that a company would dissuade its existing customers from playing in their stores for the crime of buying said company's high-end specialty items.

Hey, man, no argument here: I think FW products should be orderable from a GW store (and the GW store should get some credit for that). JamesY said earlier that the company line apparently is that GW couldn't keep up with demand if that were the case, so who knows. I'm certainly not defending that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

I don't think anyone is arguing that their practice in this regard isn't stupid and/ or short sighted. The issue here is that this problem does exist, along with heavy burdens on a GW shop's manager in terms of sales and potential sales growth.

I think the purpose of this thread has shifted more towards "how common is this?" rather than "can they do this?!" because obviously yes they can and do.

Really? I didn't get any of that latter bit from Talys' post. Instead I took his hypothetical to illustrate a defense of GW's business practices by showing the "need" for GW alienating its customers in the form of the manager losing sales.

No, I totally think GW should sell FW products from the GW counter and solve all of everyone's problems, including the store manager's. Well, maybe not the production problem. In which case, I say, MAKE MOAR!

It's not a defense of GW HQ. It's a defense of the GW store, and store manager in the current scenario where there could be situations where it all falls apart, and the store gets no sale because he "generously" allowed someone to play 30k there. Afterwards, potential customer MIGHT buy into FW, or maybe not, but you don't know and have no way of ever gauging it -- and at a store level, it doesn't make any sense at all for the manager.

Bird in the hand, 2 in the bush, all that.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Really? I didn't get any of that latter bit from Talys' post. Instead I took his hypothetical to illustrate a defense of GW's business practices by showing the "need" for GW alienating its customers in the form of the manager losing sales.

Well, for the manager it may in fact be drilled into them that it's necessary. As mere speculation, if GW is telling their potential investors that a customer who doesn't buy anything is no customer at all then they're likely cultivating such a mentality in their staff as well. Combined with the frequent turnover for managers, this can easily turn a good guy to bad habits.

So again, GW is gonna do what GW is gonna do and Talys is gonna back them no matter what. Nothing is really out of place in this scenario.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
So again, GW is gonna do what GW is gonna do and Talys is gonna back them no matter what. Nothing is really out of place in this scenario.

I don't know how you get that, from the many times in this thread I've said that GW should sell FW products in the GW stores, or the horror story of paying 36% sales tax + $20 fees that I personally experienced (in this very thread), plus:

It's not a defense of GW HQ. It's a defense of the GW store, and store manager in the current scenario where there could be situations where it all falls apart, and the store gets no sale because he "generously" allowed someone to play 30k there. Afterwards, potential customer MIGHT buy into FW, or maybe not, but you don't know and have no way of ever gauging it -- and at a store level, it doesn't make any sense at all for the manager.

:(

 Talys wrote:

 Lord Corellia wrote:
So again, GW is gonna do what GW is gonna do and Talys is gonna back them no matter what. Nothing is really out of place in this scenario.

I don't know how you get that, from the many times in this thread I've said that GW should sell FW products in the GW stores, plus:

It's not a defense of GW HQ. It's a defense of the GW store, and store manager in the current scenario where there could be situations where it all falls apart, and the store gets no sale because he "generously" allowed someone to play 30k there. Afterwards, potential customer MIGHT buy into FW, or maybe not, but you don't know and have no way of ever gauging it -- and at a store level, it doesn't make any sense at all for the manager.

:(

You just seem very much pro-GW in a lot of your posts. Maybe you just have some more disposable income than many, but even in the face of price rises and the like you seem happy and chipper, willing to pay whatever they charge.

Having said that, I do think you seem like a genuinely decent guy and I like you. I just disagree with you on some things.

I don't think we're even necessarily on different sides of this debate; my stance is that the individual store managers are between a rock and a hard place with their jobs on the line due to silly GW policies. Both the "a customer isn't a customer unless his wallet is out and he's making it rain. If he isn't doing that, ignore him" and the "Yes, FW is us but no it's not us and no we won't sell it through our retail locations because yes no it isn't not we the same company," combined with a head-in-the-clouds sales goal and a zero-tolerance for failure make it tough for a GW manager to keep his job. He must be constantly getting it from both sides. It isn't his fault, but how he conducts himself is up to him.

@Lord Cornelia - I think we're much on the same page on the FW/GW store issue.

Yes, I'm pretty pro-GW in the sense that I'm genuinely happy with their models, rules, customer service, and creative team (I don't really care about corporate, one way or the other). But that doesn't mean I like *everything* they do... I mean, just not everything is black and white. I call out stuff I don't like when I see it.

Not to hijack the thread and go on and on about pricing... of course I would like cheaper models, but what can I say, most of the models I like, GW or otherwise are sorta in the pricing strata of GW models. I really don't buy much Forge World stuff, and I don't play 30k, so I really have no skin in the game, so to speak. I think that getting FW books, models internationally is just too inconvenient, price notwithstanding. I'm a "look a the stuff before I buy it" sorta guy, generally speaking.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
You just seem very much pro-GW in a lot of your posts. Maybe you just have some more disposable income than many, but even in the face of price rises and the like you seem happy and chipper, willing to pay whatever they charge.

That's what makes him so endlessly frustrating. He seems incapable of even acknowledging that something might be rotten in the state of Nottingham, and his "Don't care, got mine" attitude towards prices, what people can buy, and his "If it's good enough for me then it's good enough for everyone" point of view can be rather insulting.

I would tell you this. Even at our store if all the sudden 40k players stopped using GW models and went all FW we probably would not allow it either. Table space, terrain, and boards are essentially a stores "thank you" for supporting us kinda deal. We support our community with competitions, leagues, ect. But that is because they support us by purchasing our GW products.

Yes it sound dickish. But store is a store even 3rd party ones, and we still have to make some sort of sales.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Offering tables is a service, that service is something that a local store can do to increase the value of their product that they can't sell as cheaply as an online store. Nowhere is it explicitly stated that you can only use models you bought in store on store tables, tables are not a reward. If it were explicitly stated I'd probably dust my hands of a store and walk away on principal as they are no longer offering them as a service and there is no longer anything to make their product more appealing than the ones you can buy online at a greater discount.


I suppose I am the same with charging for tables too, once a store starts that then the tables are removed from the equation for me and I'll just buy from whoever is cheapest then pay to play on a table and not feel bad about never buying actual models from the store. I used the table, and I paid for it, I have fulfilled my obligations to the store for using their space.

/rant

I have always thought that table fees were an elegant solution for this sort of problem. I have gone off and on to a flgs that does something similar - the table fees paid become store credit. In a sense it is a better solution - it ensures that the people using the table are going to contribute to the store in some quantifiable way; I am not aware that 'table fees' are a line item on a GW manager's profit sheet, but I am certain that just about everything else would be.

 e.earnshaw wrote:
The way fw works in my gw is you buy gw vouchers in store the pop over to nottingaham and buy fw. Its great beacuse you help the store and anoy the feth out of the guys in notting ham when you pay for your titan in a hunderd vouchers.

I wasn't aware that this was a possibility. Is it still honored? if so, then there is no problem as the vouchers would be something that the manager could show that he\she was contributing to the corporation's bottom line.

 carldooley wrote:

 e.earnshaw wrote:
The way fw works in my gw is you buy gw vouchers in store the pop over to nottingaham and buy fw. Its great beacuse you help the store and anoy the feth out of the guys in notting ham when you pay for your titan in a hunderd vouchers.

I wasn't aware that this was a possibility. Is it still honored? if so, then there is no problem as the vouchers would be something that the manager could show that he\she was contributing to the corporation's bottom line.

Doesn't it only work if you go to GW nottingham and buy it in person? I don't think you can use store bought vouchers online.

So it only works if you happen to live close enough to nottingham to bother going there AND have a store closer that you want to support more than you want to support nottingham directly.

Banning forgeworld models to be present in the store is just plain wrong, you're just gonna alienate people doing this. You can't act like a tyrant and expect people to respect your store.

There are ways to limit them and encourage people to buy GW stuff...like banning forgeworld from tournament play, that's what my FLGS do, but people can use their FW models in friendly games....

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't think you can use store bought vouchers online.

why not? Heck, the only reason for doing so is to give the manager credit for the sale.