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In a few recent threads I've noticed an emphasis on running armies of MSU, especially when it comes to BA. Not that this is the only way to play BA, but a seemingly effective way at least. Lately I've been having moderate success with 10x JP DC and a JP Libby with Gallian's Staff as my main killing unit, and have since gone on to piece together 10x SG with a JP Priest and Dante if needed. I imagine a lot of the small units are drop pod melta/flamer units like ASM or Sternguard, but I do see a lot of army lists that go for multiple 5 man Tac squads as well.

Could anyone explain how to effectively use a MSU BA army, or any marine army for that matter? I think playing regularly against Orks almost exclusively over the summer has biased my tactics.

Look for Martelus's BA posts. He is about the most diehard BA player on here.

barnowl wrote:
Look for Martelus's BA posts. He is about the most diehard BA player on here.

Oh, I'm definitely aware of this user. I've learned a lot from reading through their responses in threads.

I did search for MSU BA and MSU tactics in general, and didn't get anything that thoroughly explained things or was out dated. For marines in general I'm curious to find out how MSU armies work.

The biggest thing to think of in a BA army is how effective small units of Death Company are. 5 dudes with jump packs and a fist comes out to 140 points. It's highly mobile, and packs a mean right hook for such a small unit. 3 or 4 of those as the core of a BA list is a really good place to start. So let's do an exorcise in BA list building using a single Baal Strike Force detachment, shall we?

So our 4 elites slots are filled with 20 death co, so now onto the troops. I personally prefer tri flamer tac squads in las/plas razors, which are expensive at 185 but very potent. So let's start with 2 of those. Note, however, that 5 man squads of close combat scouts with cloaks and a melta bomb are also very effective.

In fast attack, we can easily fit 3 meltacide squads in drop pods. Though these aren't necessarily fantastic vs light armor, they are FANTASTIC vs knights and other super heavy vehicles. That's another 345 points.

For heavy support, normally I prefer the flexibility of Baal Predators, but this list has enough anti infantry so far, therefor fast tri las preds are the order of the day. Again, we'll take 3.

But after all this we'll need an HQ. You were spot on about librarians going well with death co. So a lvl2 dude with a jump pack and relic staff fills our HQ slot nicely. Let's put it all together, shall we?

1850 MSU Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Librarian
Lvl 2
Gallien's Staff
Jump pack

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-5x Assault Marines
2x Melta guns
Combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Assault Marines
2x melta guns
Combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Assault Marines
2x melta guns
Combi melta
Drop pod

Heavy Support
-Predator
Lascannons
Overcharged Engines
-Predator
Lascannons
Overcharged Engines
-Predator
Lascannons
Overcharged Engines

So 9 units on the table, with 2 more dropping in turn 1. For anti tank/monster duty the list puts down 11 lascannon shots and 6 melta shots during the first game turn, with 20 raging dudes with feel no pain rocking in to clean up the mess. As far as MSU BA goes, this list might not be a bad place to start from.

 th3maninblak wrote:
The biggest thing to think of in a BA army is how effective small units of Death Company are. 5 dudes with jump packs and a fist comes out to 140 points. It's highly mobile, and packs a mean right hook for such a small unit. 3 or 4 of those as the core of a BA list is a really good place to start. So let's do an exorcise in BA list building using a single Baal Strike Force detachment, shall we?

So our 4 elites slots are filled with 20 death co, so now onto the troops. I personally prefer tri flamer tac squads in las/plas razors, which are expensive at 185 but very potent. So let's start with 2 of those. Note, however, that 5 man squads of close combat scouts with cloaks and a melta bomb are also very effective.

In fast attack, we can easily fit 3 meltacide squads in drop pods. Though these aren't necessarily fantastic vs light armor, they are FANTASTIC vs knights and other super heavy vehicles. That's another 345 points.

For heavy support, normally I prefer the flexibility of Baal Predators, but this list has enough anti infantry so far, therefor fast tri las preds are the order of the day. Again, we'll take 3.

But after all this we'll need an HQ. You were spot on about librarians going well with death co. So a lvl2 dude with a jump pack and relic staff fills our HQ slot nicely. Let's put it all together, shall we?

Spoiler:

1850 MSU Baal Strike Force
HQ
-Librarian
Lvl 2
Gallien's Staff
Jump pack

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump Packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-5x Assault Marines
2x Melta guns
Combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Assault Marines
2x melta guns
Combi melta
Drop pod
-5x Assault Marines
2x melta guns
Combi melta
Drop pod

Heavy Support
-Predator
Lascannons
Overcharged Engines
-Predator
Lascannons
Overcharged Engines
-Predator
Lascannons
Overcharged Engines

So 9 units on the table, with 2 more dropping in turn 1. For anti tank/monster duty the list puts down 11 lascannon shots and 6 melta shots during the first game turn, with 20 raging dudes with feel no pain rocking in to clean up the mess. As far as MSU BA goes, this list might not be a bad place to start from.

Wow, that's quite a lot of wonderful info. Thank you for the time and effort you've put into that. I wouldn't need to buy that much more in order to get something like that up and running. There's a few things I'd like to change down to personal preference, such as including a Vindicator and a Furioso in a drop pod as I play a lot of Orks and the template weapons are really useful. Orks are another reason for me to run some SG as well, due to needing AP4 for a few blobs of Boyz.

I was also thinking about a FW Demios Vindicator Laser Destroyer too, as I'm not finding the Predator isn't as effective as I'd like it to be.

That list is pretty good, and similar to lists I use often. I almost always drop fragnoughts as part of my package. As long as you put together combinations of the okay units, it's hard to say one BA list is heads and shoulders above another.

Martel732 wrote:
That list is pretty good, and similar to lists I use often. I almost always drop fragnoughts as part of my package.

I wanted to fit a fragnought in there, but I would rather have a 4th squad of death co. That way you can always double up to 10 in different areas if need be.

I feel like the list has a ton of game vs imperial knights, wraithknights (even multiples of either), and battle companies. Bike lists, particularly ravenwing, would give it fits though. Against death star armies like superfriends you just deep strike what you can and have the rest move 24in a turn to keep away. Having fast tanks definitely comes in handy there.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That list is pretty good, and similar to lists I use often. I almost always drop fragnoughts as part of my package.

I wanted to fit a fragnought in there, but I would rather have a 4th squad of death co. That way you can always double up to 10 in different areas if need be.

I feel like the list has a ton of game vs imperial knights, wraithknights (even multiples of either), and battle companies. Bike lists, particularly ravenwing, would give it fits though. Against death star armies like superfriends you just deep strike what you can and have the rest move 24in a turn to keep away. Having fast tanks definitely comes in handy there.

Get this: I've been playing against so many bikes lately, I've been using double flamestorm Baals with heavy bolters so they aren't useless at long range. You laugh at first, but flamestorm Baals murder Black Knights and Scatterbikes if you have to terrain to work with. Oh yeah, and TL heavy flamer razorbacks with melta dudes in them, too.

IG players should totally drag out the hell hounds, as they are even better.

Really? I mean it makes sense, especially since black knights are so problematic for us. Bs2 overwatch with twin linked plasma? Ugh.

I guess it's the same reason I have for running asscan baal preds. I keep running into battle and demi companies, and lions blade strike forces. I need something that can reliably crack an av11 transport. I hear 10 shots at str5 and 6 are good for that.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Really? I mean it makes sense, especially since black knights are so problematic for us. Bs2 overwatch with twin linked plasma? Ugh.

I guess it's the same reason I have for running asscan baal preds. I keep running into battle and demi companies, and lions blade strike forces. I need something that can reliably crack an av11 transport. I hear 10 shots at str5 and 6 are good for that.

I like to pop AV 11 with autolas more since I can strand them on the other side of the table potentially. My Baals are magnetized however, for interconversion. Giving all the RW hit and run was unnecessary I think because it doesn't help them against the top lists, they just use it to stomp the weak lists harder.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Really? I mean it makes sense, especially since black knights are so problematic for us. Bs2 overwatch with twin linked plasma? Ugh.

I guess it's the same reason I have for running asscan baal preds. I keep running into battle and demi companies, and lions blade strike forces. I need something that can reliably crack an av11 transport. I hear 10 shots at str5 and 6 are good for that.

I like to pop AV 11 with autolas more since I can strand them on the other side of the table potentially. My Baals are magnetized however, for interconversion. Giving all the RW hit and run was unnecessary I think because it doesn't help them against the top lists, they just use it to stomp the weak lists harder.

This is one of the reasons I value Sanguinary Guard in situations like this. Normally you don't want an assault unit to be so powerful that they wipe their target in a single turn, but with both Ravenwing and White scars having hit and run, and both having access to super powerful command squads, you almost need something that will straight up END THEM before they have a chance to dart away.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That list is pretty good, and similar to lists I use often. I almost always drop fragnoughts as part of my package.

I wanted to fit a fragnought in there, but I would rather have a 4th squad of death co. That way you can always double up to 10 in different areas if need be.

I feel like the list has a ton of game vs imperial knights, wraithknights (even multiples of either), and battle companies. Bike lists, particularly ravenwing, would give it fits though. Against death star armies like superfriends you just deep strike what you can and have the rest move 24in a turn to keep away. Having fast tanks definitely comes in handy there.

Get this: I've been playing against so many bikes lately, I've been using double flamestorm Baals with heavy bolters so they aren't useless at long range. You laugh at first, but flamestorm Baals murder Black Knights and Scatterbikes if you have to terrain to work with. Oh yeah, and TL heavy flamer razorbacks with melta dudes in them, too.

IG players should totally drag out the hell hounds, as they are even better.

Sounds neat. Do you find that due to the short range if you don't obliterate your target, you get krak missiles up the exhaust pipe?

D

Sometimes, but I try to assault the same unit. If a Baal flames but three Black Knights, it's an even trade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Really? I mean it makes sense, especially since black knights are so problematic for us. Bs2 overwatch with twin linked plasma? Ugh.

I guess it's the same reason I have for running asscan baal preds. I keep running into battle and demi companies, and lions blade strike forces. I need something that can reliably crack an av11 transport. I hear 10 shots at str5 and 6 are good for that.

I like to pop AV 11 with autolas more since I can strand them on the other side of the table potentially. My Baals are magnetized however, for interconversion. Giving all the RW hit and run was unnecessary I think because it doesn't help them against the top lists, they just use it to stomp the weak lists harder.

This is one of the reasons I value Sanguinary Guard in situations like this. Normally you don't want an assault unit to be so powerful that they wipe their target in a single turn, but with both Ravenwing and White scars having hit and run, and both having access to super powerful command squads, you almost need something that will straight up END THEM before they have a chance to dart away.

Sanguinary guard are a liability against the TL plasma BS 2 overwatch.

True, unless you have another unit that can eat overwatch, like a small group of assault marines, tac marines, scouts, or even a few death co. That trick also works vs wraithguard.

It's easier just to shoot the offending units. But that's always the answer in 7th isn't it?

Martel732 wrote:
It's easier just to shoot the offending units. But that's always the answer in 7th isn't it?

Most of the time, yes. But there are certain units that are easier to bring down via combat than shooting, mainly because close combat inherently denies cover saves. White scars and Ravenwing bikes, with 3+ or 4+ rerollable jink saves respectively, are easier to assault than they are to shoot without access to ignores cover. Oddly enough, nurgle Daemon Princes fall into this category as well, since they can jink all day for a natural 2++ even when on the ground. Granted, Black Mace princes are good enough in combat that charging them with Death Company isnt a good idea either.

It's not easy to assault DA jerks with BS 2 overwatch with TL plasma guns. That's a 55% hit chance for those playing at home. It's actually easier to shoot them.