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Have armor against shooting attacks maintain some effectiveness against high AP so SV 2+ standard, then 3+ against AP2, 4+ against AP1. Reroll failed armor saves against AP5, 6, -- weapons.

Storm bolter can be used as a CC weapon with the power first for an extra attack in cc and terminators attack at initiative in cc with power fists.

One squad can take a unique war gear item that allows it assault the turn it deepstrikes. Item can only accommodate 6 bodies.

Give them a Teleport shunt like the Dreadknights have. BAM, done. The price cut was a step in the right direction, but they still need to get up close. That'd solve the problem of BOTH variants.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Have armor against shooting attacks maintain some effectiveness against high AP so SV 2+ standard, then 3+ against AP2, 4+ against AP1. Reroll failed armor saves against AP5, 6, -- weapons.

Storm bolter can be used as a CC weapon with the power first for an extra attack in cc and terminators attack at initiative in cc with power fists.

One squad can take a unique war gear item that allows it assault the turn it deepstrikes. Item can only accommodate 6 bodies.

calm down, chief. Plasma is a notorious termie melter so your plan doesnt work for toughness and theres a reason we have assault Termies. if the powerfist termies strike at the same time as Lightning claw termies but with the durability of Hammer/Shields then we have missed the point

Forgot about lightning claws so the other idea I had but didn't post might make more sense. That is to allow them to use the storm bolter in cc at their regular initiative step for 2 S4 AP5 attacks, then the fist as normal.

I'm no big terminator fan or space marine fan for that matter and place the Eldar, Tyranids, Orks and IG above Marines add far as factions I like or find interesting, but they are a joke on the table and have become increasingly more so over the years. I think they should be dramatically boosted since the game clearly won't head in the direction of scaling everything back. Terminators should be a nasty unit not something the fluff dude takes and gets smashed every time with more or less no effort.

I don't care that plasma has been the notorious termie killer forever. GW seems content to abandon long term ideas so might as well join the party. Plasma will still be effective, much more so than many other options with that proposal, but terminators gonna soak up some fire.

And the proposal for boosting the armor is only against shooting attacks to not encroach on shield guts in cc too much.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Forgot about lightning claws so the other idea I had but didn't post might make more sense. That is to allow them to use the storm bolter in cc at their regular initiative step for 2 S4 AP5 attacks, then the fist as normal.

I'm no big terminator fan or space marine fan for that matter and place the Eldar, Tyranids, Orks and IG above Marines add far as factions I like or find interesting, but they are a joke on the table and have become increasingly more so over the years. I think they should be dramatically boosted since the game clearly won't head in the direction of scaling everything back. Terminators should be a nasty unit not something the fluff dude takes and gets smashed every time with more or less no effort.

I don't care that plasma has been the notorious termie killer forever. GW seems content to abandon long term ideas so might as well join the party. Plasma will still be effective, much more so than many other options with that proposal, but terminators gonna soak up some fire.

And the proposal for boosting the armor is only against shooting attacks to not encroach on shield guts in cc too much.

Storm shields should be a 2++ save from a fluff stand point. Ive only read 2 stories where a Hammer/Shield Terminator died and that was because he lost his shield. If termies had a 4++ against AP2-1 but had a 2+ armour with FnP 5+ would make them fairly tough to tackle

Just give them an extra wound. It's simple, effective and makes them a nice stepping stone between artificer armor and centurions.

Make it so that duel wielding two specialist weapons grants +1 initiative.
Then allow termies to ignore unwieldy and allow them to reroll all failed saves.

Now they are so good, they are almost TOO good.

Letting them dual wield 2 Heavy Bolters for free. That would make them ultra killy vs hordes.

raverrn wrote:
Just give them an extra wound. It's simple, effective and makes them a nice stepping stone between artificer armor and centurions.

My problem with the extra wound is then having the problem of keeping track of all those wounds on squads of multi-wound models. I think the re-rollable 2+ armor save is a much easier fix.

That's a bit awkward, but as a Tau player, I already deal with that on Crisis suits, and it's not terrible. Granted, Terminators come in larger numbers, but it shouldn't be too awkward.

Also, the 2+ rerollable doesn't really fix their vulnerability to the kind of massed AP2 or quasi-rending that both Tau and Eldar can pretty easily throw around, which is the whole reason why folks like hammernators, but not claw termies.

As an aside: the major distinction of Grey Knight Paladins is their added durability (+1W) - if all terminators got that, what would Paladins have? I think 3W is a little much... Maybe T5/T6?

jade_angel wrote:
That's a bit awkward, but as a Tau player, I already deal with that on Crisis suits, and it's not terrible. Granted, Terminators come in larger numbers, but it shouldn't be too awkward.

Also, the 2+ rerollable doesn't really fix their vulnerability to the kind of massed AP2 or quasi-rending that both Tau and Eldar can pretty easily throw around, which is the whole reason why folks like hammernators, but not claw termies.

As an aside: the major distinction of Grey Knight Paladins is their added durability (+1W) - if all terminators got that, what would Paladins have? I think 3W is a little much... Maybe T5/T6?

I say let them reroll ALL their saves. It'd make 'em stupid durable and I doubt anyone would ever ask for them to be buffed again so we can stop having these threads.

 bomtek80 wrote:

raverrn wrote:
Just give them an extra wound. It's simple, effective and makes them a nice stepping stone between artificer armor and centurions.

My problem with the extra wound is then having the problem of keeping track of all those wounds on squads of multi-wound models. I think the re-rollable 2+ armor save is a much easier fix.

2+ rerollable is insanely broken compared to 2+ flat save. Math Hammering some Str 4, WS 4 melee attacks (charging Ork boyz, Space Marines, Necron Warriors, etc) it takes on average 24 attacks to kill a terminator with its default 2+ armor save. With 2+ rerollable it turns from 24 attacks to 144 attacks. The last thing this game needs is more mechanics that require hard counters to defeat while everything else is completely ineffective. A single Warboss in Mega Armor with a Lucky Stikk is a nightmare to kill with anything short of AP2 and yet that setup is roughly 150 points and Orks can only take 1 in the entire army and that Warboss doesn't even have any Invuln save to help vs AP2. Maybe if the ITC style rule for 2+ rerollable being 2+/4+ then it would be better but as it currently stands 2+ rerollable is a horrible mechanic.

Hence why I suggest the Teleport Shunt. It helps with mobility issues and helps both variants, as well as giving more incentive to take Terminator HQ's.

jade_angel wrote:
That's a bit awkward, but as a Tau player, I already deal with that on Crisis suits, and it's not terrible. Granted, Terminators come in larger numbers, but it shouldn't be too awkward.

Also, the 2+ rerollable doesn't really fix their vulnerability to the kind of massed AP2 or quasi-rending that both Tau and Eldar can pretty easily throw around, which is the whole reason why folks like hammernators, but not claw termies.

As an aside: the major distinction of Grey Knight Paladins is their added durability (+1W) - if all terminators got that, what would Paladins have? I think 3W is a little much... Maybe T5/T6?

For me it was never the ap2 and ap1 weapons that I would groan about, they suck to be shot with sure, but my problem was always more of the "Let me shoot you with my blog of IG or whatever, or scatbikes, or dakka fexes." Yes I would get armor saves against those damn weapons but when I have to make like 30 armor saves for a 5 man squad then 2+ armor doesn't mean jack all.

 bomtek80 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
That's a bit awkward, but as a Tau player, I already deal with that on Crisis suits, and it's not terrible. Granted, Terminators come in larger numbers, but it shouldn't be too awkward.

Also, the 2+ rerollable doesn't really fix their vulnerability to the kind of massed AP2 or quasi-rending that both Tau and Eldar can pretty easily throw around, which is the whole reason why folks like hammernators, but not claw termies.

As an aside: the major distinction of Grey Knight Paladins is their added durability (+1W) - if all terminators got that, what would Paladins have? I think 3W is a little much... Maybe T5/T6?

For me it was never the ap2 and ap1 weapons that I would groan about, they suck to be shot with sure, but my problem was always more of the "Let me shoot you with my blog of IG or whatever, or scatbikes, or dakka fexes." Yes I would get armor saves against those damn weapons but when I have to make like 30 armor saves for a 5 man squad then 2+ armor doesn't mean jack all.

What if they halved the number of AP4/5/6/- saves they have to make?

I would modify how Armour Saves work, making it a 0-10 characteristic and a few other things, then give Terminators the equivalent save of a light vehicle.

Shooty terminators need more shooty, NOT more durability. They are ignorable now, they'll just be even more ignorable with more saves.

2++ is very overkill. It would make certain characters in Termie armor nigh on unkillable. FNP is also kind of... odd imo to use; why not just say a rerollable 5+ invul save? honestly rerolls are probably the easiest way to balance them, after all they mostly die to high rate of fire shooting. Just give them the reroll against AP4+ and call it a day.

They also need more utility, right now they are one-and-done. Deep strike should be more reliable, throw out the Mishap table for them perhaps? Or Obj. Secured for all Termies (don't know how much more secure an objective could be with Termies on it)?

Also Endlesswaltz... why do you want to kick Grey Knight termies teeth in?

Shooty termi should be able to carry more heavy weapons like plasma cannon and lascannons and with single hand as the other hand carry a fist or shield.

Here's what I propose:
1. Storm Bolters are S5. This universal change makes PA Grey Knights a little better of a choice, though that's a different topic.
2. TH/SS is only a 5 point upgrade from a new proposed price point. Assuming my changes work, I'm fine with 35 points being the base.
3. All Terminator variants get a Teleport Shunt like Dreadknights.
4. Tactical Terminators get access to two Heavy Weapons in the minimum squad.

I don't know what other fix would be made to assault Terminators.

 Quickjager wrote:
2++ is very overkill. It would make certain characters in Termie armor nigh on unkillable. FNP is also kind of... odd imo to use; why not just say a rerollable 5+ invul save? honestly rerolls are probably the easiest way to balance them, after all they mostly die to high rate of fire shooting. Just give them the reroll against AP4+ and call it a day.

They also need more utility, right now they are one-and-done. Deep strike should be more reliable, throw out the Mishap table for them perhaps? Or Obj. Secured for all Termies (don't know how much more secure an objective could be with Termies on it)?

Also Endlesswaltz... why do you want to kick Grey Knight termies teeth in?

I don't really, I just want to avoid the stupid situation that would arise when boosting both grey knights and normal chapter marines that everyone would just ally in or proxy grey knight terminators, as the boosts would make grey knight termies (and paladins in particular) super good to the point that normal termies would just be stupidly inferior in comparison.

GK's need a boost too, but not the sort I was suggesting.

I still think auto invisibility on the first turn they arrive via deep strike is a great idea mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Here's what I propose:
1. Storm Bolters are S5. This universal change makes PA Grey Knights a little better of a choice, though that's a different topic.
2. TH/SS is only a 5 point upgrade from a new proposed price point. Assuming my changes work, I'm fine with 35 points being the base.
3. All Terminator variants get a Teleport Shunt like Dreadknights.
4. Tactical Terminators get access to two Heavy Weapons in the minimum squad.

I don't know what other fix would be made to assault Terminators.

Make assault termies able to assault after shunting? (particular special rule just for them) Teleport shunting only works once per game right?

Make tactical termies able to double tap storm bolters with rending/shred/fleshbane once per game also. I'd say triple tap with no shooting the following turn but I think people would lose their minds.

 Quickjager wrote:
2++ is very overkill. It would make certain characters in Termie armor nigh on unkillable. FNP is also kind of... odd imo to use; why not just say a rerollable 5+ invul save? honestly rerolls are probably the easiest way to balance them, after all they mostly die to high rate of fire shooting. Just give them the reroll against AP4+ and call it a day.

They also need more utility, right now they are one-and-done. Deep strike should be more reliable, throw out the Mishap table for them perhaps? Or Obj. Secured for all Termies (don't know how much more secure an objective could be with Termies on it)?

Also Endlesswaltz... why do you want to kick Grey Knight termies teeth in?

I suspect because its fun to kick in the teeth of the GK. Many of us still remember 5th, and they still have the most Mary Sue fluff ever.

"I still think auto invisibility on the first turn they arrive via deep strike is a great idea mind."

The game needs less invis, not more.

I love how quickly these threads go from "how to make x more playable" into "how to make x a god." 2+ rerollable, 2++, FNP standard just makes them necrons, charging right out of deepstrike is really an absurd mechanic as it would make vehicles utterly useless, swinging powerfists at initiative defeats the purpose of the weapon.

+1 Toughness without a point increase would solve the problem without making them utterly insane. Lasguns would need 6's to wound, bolters a 5. Spamming low str shots would be A LOT less effective. Trying to make them resilient to scat bikes, universally accepted as one of the most powerful units in the game, would just then make terminators the most powerful unit in the game. If melta, plasma, and grav are ruining the terminators' day, well, that is what they are designed for.

 Grumblewartz wrote:
I love how quickly these threads go from "how to make x more playable" into "how to make x a god." 2+ rerollable, 2++, FNP standard just makes them necrons, charging right out of deepstrike is really an absurd mechanic as it would make vehicles utterly useless, swinging powerfists at initiative defeats the purpose of the weapon.

+1 Toughness without a point increase would solve the problem without making them utterly insane. Lasguns would need 6's to wound, bolters a 5. Spamming low str shots would be A LOT less effective. Trying to make them resilient to scat bikes, universally accepted as one of the most powerful units in the game, would just then make terminators the most powerful unit in the game. If melta, plasma, and grav are ruining the terminators' day, well, that is what they are designed for.

Or if you give them assault cannons, you can make the bikes jink. And hurt WK. And have some actual utility.

do as 30k does: give access to grenade harnesses (single or multi use assault grenades), open up everyone to using power weapons OR fists, objective secured, and a slight price drop. Nothing broken, makes them more versatile without giving them too many buffs.

realistically they aren't terrible, people just like to hate things that are not super optimized.

No, theyre terrible. Please quit trying to handwave away their terrible math. There is nothing optimized in e ba codex and they are still the worst thing in the book.

T5 and heavy bolters, maybe?

Evidently, GW has addressed them by making them 35 pts and still worthless.

My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots with that fire mode, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.

Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.

Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...

Because they don't really participate in the shooting phase, they are expensive, they have few wounds to give, are slow, and there are many, many weapons that make a mockery of their armor. And their dedicated transport options suck. And unassisted deep striking sucks. And not being able to assault after deep striking makes their power fists useless. And they can't even sweep a unit. Shall I go on?

If you think that aren't that bad, tell me what you think they are good at. The answer is not a) soaking damage b) dealing damage or c) getting into melee.

"stormbolters fire as heavy 3"

Still useless, as marines have a ton of crappy S4 fire already.