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Vaktathi wrote: Yes, I do believe you've repeated that platitude, but it doesn't actually address any of my above arguments on how the game doesn't function well for pickup play if all players aren't able and willing to accept the metagame problems as you do, if you don't have all day for play, if there isn't a huge number of players to just hop over to if someone can't agree to "reasonable" terms, and if players aren't bringing gigantic collections of models to swap out as necessary. These are all very real issues that many gamers routinely face, and simply hand-waving it away as "well you're just being a stick in the mud" is a rather weak argument for trying to prove the game is otherwise great.
You're missing the point. Don't go into your hobbies blind.
I've been playing this hobby for a great many number of years and many editions, this isn't something I hopped into "blindly". It wasn't the issue before that it is today. 40k has never been perfect by any means, but it's an entirely different can of worms now than it was even just a couple of years ago.
If players are unwilling to help create an environment to pursue their hobbies in a productive manner, they will not get much out of it. If players are unable or unwilling to take the necessary steps to ensure a fun, fairly balanced game for both parties, they will not have fun. This came be said for any game. Name the most balanced miniature war game out there... there are good and bad lists for it, there will be unbalanced games for it. Its apart of the game, its something one must accept if they wish to enjoy their time in the hobby. This is life, you gotta put forth effort. Nothing is handed to us for free. This hobby is not for everyone, if they can't mean the necessary requirements to have fun and enjoy the game, be it communication, money for more miniatures, or a understanding of the state of the codexes, they need to find a new hobby.
Again, the sort of effort you're talking about here, where people are going to have to change their entire army or the points levels involved based on their opponent wasn't something that was ever really a thing in previous editions outside of "don't bring a tournament WAAC army to a casual game" as opposed to having to tailor your army not to curbstomp opponents based on what they're playing *all* the time. It's not required in any other tabletop game I can think of like Dropzone Commander or Heavy Gear or Firestorm Armada or Infinity or X-Wing, etc, especially not to the degree that it's required for in 40k to have a good game.
Speak to local players, communicate, swap numbers, and you will find that the majority of your games will be fun. If one is unable, or unwilling to do this, they will not enjoy any game. This is the same for all games, be it video games, board games, or 40k.
Yes, I'm not saying I don't speak with local players and communicate and whatnot, in fact I get most of my games now by pre-arrangement, but I didn't have to do that in the past, and it has meant that in general I get fewer games than I used to (and I know I'm not alone in that), against a smaller variety of armies, and pickup play fundamentally is just not functional in the way it once was.
Well, at this point we're just going in circles. Its a different game than it was before. Things were added, things were taken away. At the end of the day one can still enjoy a game of 40k, just as they did in previous editions. It might take more work, but it also offers more variety. If you don't like the changes, that's fine. Just because it might require more effort does not mean its a bad game.
If by hobby, you mean specifically 40k, then yes, you generally need to plan a game out ahead of time or bring a large collection of models if you want a good game. Especially if you play a faction on either end of the extreme.
If you play an upper tier army, you can't bring a competitive list against a lower tier army. Against another upper tier army, sure, you can, so long as they do. Given the size of 40k armies, this does seem to lend credence to the idea that you must bring an absurd collection or plan ahead, so no pick up games.
If by hobby you mean table top wargaming, then no, no other game works like that. Most other war games have a much smaller model count (not counting historicals), so bringing other models isn't as big a deal, but I don't bring anything more than the one list I'm trying out that week in WMH. I play fine into everything. 40k is very unique in this regard, and it is a recent development. In 5th I was able to bring my CSM against any list and still play a game. The odds might be against me (70:30-60:40 at worst) but not like it is now.
Popularity of a faction shouldn't factor into release schedule. I spent money on my faction, quite a bit, the release schedule should be somewhat even between factions. If you don't release as many new models, fine, but the rules should be updated well. As someone who owns nids, the dex has been gak for a while now. Same with CSM, and it's mind boggling.
I don't know why GW doesn't allow the Dark Elf treatment anymore, but they should.
I love it! The only models I felt any need for in the past 6 months have been some more Daemons, just in case I want to summon some Bloodletters instead of Daemonettes for example.
There's no gaming club for pick-up games in my area anyways, it's all pre-arranged through FB and private arrangements, so regardless of game system you have to arrange some stuff before you play.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I would love 40k to get the AoS treatment, with fewer, more characterful Special Rules, everything on one page. Then fill the rest of the books on background, stories and artwork. Win!
This would be a win-win situation for GW.
But according to the rumors, GW seems to plan its games at three stages: AoS with free rules, 40k as it is, and HH as premium game at a higher price segment.
OK, I get the financials, but I would appreciate a cleanup of the 40k rules - it really doesn't need to be so complicated when nobody plays 40k for the rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Well, if it takes more effort to play the same game as five years ago, I would say it is now worse than it was.
Exactly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 14:16:27
"Nothing wrong with BA either. Hell, thats the only army I have yet to be able to beat in the past 5 months with my Necrons"
Are you remembering to put your models out? Because that's about the only way BA can beat Necrons. BA are god awful and very possibly the worst list in the game. So yea, there IS something wrong with BA.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 14:18:56
Martel732 wrote: "Nothing wrong with BA either. Hell, thats the only army I have yet to be able to beat in the past 5 months with my Necrons"
Are you remembering to put your models out? Because that's about the only way BA can beat Necrons. BA are god awful and very possibly the worst list in the game. So yea, there IS something wrong with BA.
CSM and IG would like to have a word with you about being "the worst list in the game".
Martel732 wrote: "Nothing wrong with BA either. Hell, thats the only army I have yet to be able to beat in the past 5 months with my Necrons"
Are you remembering to put your models out? Because that's about the only way BA can beat Necrons. BA are god awful and very possibly the worst list in the game. So yea, there IS something wrong with BA.
Most Necrons are beaten easily in melee, BA player I play against goes melee heavy. Not easy to win when he is about to get most of his army in melee by turn 2 and then sweeps the crons' in CC.
Martel732 wrote: "Nothing wrong with BA either. Hell, thats the only army I have yet to be able to beat in the past 5 months with my Necrons"
Are you remembering to put your models out? Because that's about the only way BA can beat Necrons. BA are god awful and very possibly the worst list in the game. So yea, there IS something wrong with BA.
Most Necrons are beaten easily in melee, BA player I play against goes melee heavy. Not easy to win when he is about to get most of his army in melee by turn 2 and then sweeps the crons' in CC.
Wraiths are one of the best melee units in the game...Necron warriors in decurion are better than tacticals, point for point.
Necrons are not bad in melee, and its hard to generate enough casualties to make them break since they have high command.
I have to ask, what necron lists do you run that you think they are bad in melee? They aren't top tier in melee, but they are probably at the bottom of the top or top of the next highest (lack of an overpowered melee deathstar knocks them out of the top IMO).
Martel732 wrote: "Nothing wrong with BA either. Hell, thats the only army I have yet to be able to beat in the past 5 months with my Necrons"
Are you remembering to put your models out? Because that's about the only way BA can beat Necrons. BA are god awful and very possibly the worst list in the game. So yea, there IS something wrong with BA.
Most Necrons are beaten easily in melee, BA player I play against goes melee heavy. Not easy to win when he is about to get most of his army in melee by turn 2 and then sweeps the crons' in CC.
Wraiths are one of the best melee units in the game...Necron warriors in decurion are better than tacticals, point for point.
Necrons are not bad in melee, and its hard to generate enough casualties to make them break since they have high command.
I have to ask, what necron lists do you run that you think they are bad in melee? They aren't top tier in melee, but they are probably at the bottom of the top or top of the next highest (lack of an overpowered melee deathstar knocks them out of the top IMO).
I don't use Decurion in 90% of my games. Warriors, immortals, tomb blades, death marks... all suck in melee when they go last and have 1/2-1/3 the attacks on first turn on combat. If they lose combat, they have a chance to run, if they run, odds are they're sweeped. Yes, wraiths are good, but my why list is not full of wraiths, I only use wraiths in about half of my games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 15:40:51
Even without the decurion, a RP roll makes them tougher than a marine for similar points. Striking last is rough, but a BA squad charging should do what,
2/3, 2/3, 1/2, 2/3 =8/54 wounds per attack off the charge? (Are they ws 5? Can't recall, assumed they were). That's not a ton of kills (2?). After charging the numbers get a lot worse, most likely inflicting one wound between loss of attacks and lower strength, unless they go bp and cc. In which case you can rapid fire at least once before engangemen.
Striking back is
1/2, 1/2, 1,3 = 1/12, so your most likely losing combat by 2. You're not going to run, odds are, and a BA squad shouldn't reach you unmolested.
Wraiths and tomb blades aren't terrible in melee. I'd put wraiths against any unit in the BA and expect them to win combat.
Not taking wraiths is handicapping yourself, and you can't ignore one of the best cc units in the game and say necrons have bad melee.
Akiasura wrote: Even without the decurion, a RP roll makes them tougher than a marine for similar points. Striking last is rough, but a BA squad charging should do what,
2/3, 2/3, 1/2, 2/3 =8/54 wounds per attack off the charge? (Are they ws 5? Can't recall, assumed they were). That's not a ton of kills (2?). After charging the numbers get a lot worse, most likely inflicting one wound between loss of attacks and lower strength, unless they go bp and cc. In which case you can rapid fire at least once before engangemen.
Striking back is
1/2, 1/2, 1,3 = 1/12, so your most likely losing combat by 2. You're not going to run, odds are, and a BA squad shouldn't reach you unmolested.
Wraiths and tomb blades aren't terrible in melee. I'd put wraiths against any unit in the BA and expect them to win combat.
Not taking wraiths is handicapping yourself, and you can't ignore one of the best cc units in the game and say necrons have bad melee.
BA can bring more than just Tac squads. A 5+ FNP is not a great lifesaver when hits bypass armor saves. 3-2+ armor saves on most SM units can be hard to crack in melee without lychguard, praetorians, overlord, or wraiths. And I do handicap myself in certain games. Creates better games. Also, dice averages don't work so well when most dice are not true 16.666%.
Akiasura wrote: Even without the decurion, a RP roll makes them tougher than a marine for similar points. Striking last is rough, but a BA squad charging should do what,
2/3, 2/3, 1/2, 2/3 =8/54 wounds per attack off the charge? (Are they ws 5? Can't recall, assumed they were). That's not a ton of kills (2?). After charging the numbers get a lot worse, most likely inflicting one wound between loss of attacks and lower strength, unless they go bp and cc. In which case you can rapid fire at least once before engangemen.
Striking back is
1/2, 1/2, 1,3 = 1/12, so your most likely losing combat by 2. You're not going to run, odds are, and a BA squad shouldn't reach you unmolested.
Wraiths and tomb blades aren't terrible in melee. I'd put wraiths against any unit in the BA and expect them to win combat.
Not taking wraiths is handicapping yourself, and you can't ignore one of the best cc units in the game and say necrons have bad melee.
BA can bring more than just Tac squads. A 5+ FNP is not a great lifesaver when hits bypass armor saves. 3-2+ armor saves on most SM units can be hard to crack in melee without lychguard, praetorians, overlord, or wraiths. And I do handicap myself in certain games. Creates better games. Also, dice averages don't work so well when most dice are not true 16.666%.
Right, you need melee units to do damage in melee. I'm not arguing that. You can still shoot all their melee units quite easily, since they are slow, not that tough per points, or just lose to your melee units.
I'm not familiar with BA, what units do they have besides termies (which are bad) and DC that hit harder than a tactical squad, point for point?
The problem with handicapping yourself is it throws your arguments that BA can stand up to necrons right out the window. It suggests that people who say pick up games are dead and deciding lists with your opponent is now mandatory, instead of something unheard of or considered cheating are correct. You can't make claims about the power level of relevant dexes if you're going to pretend certain units don't exist.
Otherwise eldar are quite reasonable because only guardians exist, and tyranids are strictly bottom tier because flyrants arent a factor.
Akiasura wrote: Even without the decurion, a RP roll makes them tougher than a marine for similar points. Striking last is rough, but a BA squad charging should do what,
2/3, 2/3, 1/2, 2/3 =8/54 wounds per attack off the charge? (Are they ws 5? Can't recall, assumed they were). That's not a ton of kills (2?). After charging the numbers get a lot worse, most likely inflicting one wound between loss of attacks and lower strength, unless they go bp and cc. In which case you can rapid fire at least once before engangemen.
Striking back is
1/2, 1/2, 1,3 = 1/12, so your most likely losing combat by 2. You're not going to run, odds are, and a BA squad shouldn't reach you unmolested.
Wraiths and tomb blades aren't terrible in melee. I'd put wraiths against any unit in the BA and expect them to win combat.
Not taking wraiths is handicapping yourself, and you can't ignore one of the best cc units in the game and say necrons have bad melee.
BA can bring more than just Tac squads. A 5+ FNP is not a great lifesaver when hits bypass armor saves. 3-2+ armor saves on most SM units can be hard to crack in melee without lychguard, praetorians, overlord, or wraiths. And I do handicap myself in certain games. Creates better games. Also, dice averages don't work so well when most dice are not true 16.666%.
Right, you need melee units to do damage in melee. I'm not arguing that. You can still shoot all their melee units quite easily, since they are slow, not that tough per points, or just lose to your melee units.
I'm not familiar with BA, what units do they have besides termies (which are bad) and DC that hit harder than a tactical squad, point for point?
The problem with handicapping yourself is it throws your arguments that BA can stand up to necrons right out the window. It suggests that people who say pick up games are dead and deciding lists with your opponent is now mandatory, instead of something unheard of or considered cheating are correct. You can't make claims about the power level of relevant dexes if you're going to pretend certain units don't exist.
Otherwise eldar are quite reasonable because only guardians exist, and tyranids are strictly bottom tier because flyrants arent a factor.
If you have read any of my other posts then you will know that I don't go blindly into matches. I play pre-arranged matches. I don't spam my best units. If I'm going to spend hours on a hobby, I want to make sure that its going to be a fun game, and not a drawn conclusion. Not every 40k player is a TFG who plays WAAC lists who cares more about winning than both players having fun and enjoying the game. With a little communication and brain power, all codexes can have balanced games with other codexs, be it by toning down the list of the more powerful codex or playing maelstrom missions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 16:16:34
I think the whole "just talk it out with your opponent before hand" argument is a bit flawed for a few reasons.
1 - I dont have the cell phone number of anyone who might show up at my FLGS on any given day. So I have to show up to talk.
2 - I have 1850 points of X army. Thats it. I don't have 3000 points of X army with which to trim down to 1850. I have what I have, and in no way shape or form does it have the power to take down 5 knights. Hell, 3 knights plus other stuff would be a significant challenge. Let alone multiple wraith knights in an eldar army.
So because of problems 1 and 2 I'm stuck playing whatever is in the shop and it up to the other guy to have to fit with me. Which isn't to say that it may or may not be possible because maybe they are in the same boat as I am.
and lastly 3 - I dont have half a day to devote to playing just one game. Finding an opponent, agreeing on a power level for the game, rewriting their list, going through all the random rolls, then actually playing the other game.
In the olden days, you could get in two pick-up games in a afternoon. (three if one game turned particularly one sided). Now, its just really hard to get in one pick-up game that both players can enjoy equally.
That is the worst part of the hobby. You can't just go and play a game anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 16:15:50
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:
Jayden63 wrote: I think the whole "just talk it out with your opponent before hand" argument is a bit flawed for a few reasons.
1 - I dont have the cell phone number of anyone who might show up at my FLGS on any given day. So I have to show up to talk.
2 - I have 1850 points of X army. Thats it. I don't have 3000 points of X army with which to trim down to 1850. I have what I have, and in no way shape or form does it have the power to take down 5 knights. Hell, 3 knights plus other stuff would be a significant challenge. Let alone multiple wraith knights in an eldar army.
So because of problems 1 and 2 I'm stuck playing whatever is in the shop and it up to the other guy to have to fit with me. Which isn't to say that it may or may not be possible because maybe they are in the same boat as I am.
and lastly 3 - I dont have half a day to devote to playing just one game. Finding an opponent, agreeing on a power level for the game, rewriting their list, going through all the random rolls, then actually playing the other game.
In the olden days, you could get in two pick-up games in a afternoon. (three if one game turned particularly one sided). Now, its just really hard to get in one pick-up game that both players can enjoy equally.
That is the worst part of the hobby. You can't just go and play a game anymore.
1. Pre-arranging games is quite easy in today's world. Most stores has some sort of social media page where players communicate and set up games. If the person who you're playing didn't, swap contact numbers and set up future games.
2. Can't help you here besides telling you to play a smaller game where both sides would be even with the given miniatures, or buy more miniatures. This is not a cheap hobby, never has been, never will be. If cost is a big issue, might wanna look into a different system.
3. Within 5-10 mins one should be able to agree on a type of game, and power level used in the game. If it takes longer, then I would argue that someones social skills are lacking.
I agree. For me the biggest problem is that here no one buys the bad builds or bad armies. So even if guardians are weaker then scater bikes and a prime sucks compering to a dakka tyrant, I won't ever face the first ones, because no body bought those models in the first place. I could technicly play people with old armies from editions past, but those either quit the game very fast or sell the models. And if I try, and I realy did try it both in WFB and w40k, to pre set a game it takes hours to set up all the rules, and offten opponents don't even want to agree to any balancing, because their good army works without it and they don't need it to have fun.
In 5th and even 6th I could just ask someone if he wants to play and play. No it is no longer possible.
Jayden63 wrote: I think the whole "just talk it out with your opponent before hand" argument is a bit flawed for a few reasons.
1 - I dont have the cell phone number of anyone who might show up at my FLGS on any given day. So I have to show up to talk.
2 - I have 1850 points of X army. Thats it. I don't have 3000 points of X army with which to trim down to 1850. I have what I have, and in no way shape or form does it have the power to take down 5 knights. Hell, 3 knights plus other stuff would be a significant challenge. Let alone multiple wraith knights in an eldar army.
So because of problems 1 and 2 I'm stuck playing whatever is in the shop and it up to the other guy to have to fit with me. Which isn't to say that it may or may not be possible because maybe they are in the same boat as I am.
and lastly 3 - I dont have half a day to devote to playing just one game. Finding an opponent, agreeing on a power level for the game, rewriting their list, going through all the random rolls, then actually playing the other game.
In the olden days, you could get in two pick-up games in a afternoon. (three if one game turned particularly one sided). Now, its just really hard to get in one pick-up game that both players can enjoy equally.
That is the worst part of the hobby. You can't just go and play a game anymore.
I hear you on these problems. I've gotten so used to pre-organizing my games, that I can't really remember the last time I had a game that wasn't (outside a tournament)! It just works so well towards having a good time that the idea of just bringing an army with me to play whoever shows up doesn't even enter into my mind. Whenever I meet a new player, I direct them to the forum where our community gathers to pre-organize games, I give them my email address, and I make a sincere effort to showing them that I look forward to our game.
The suggestion to play smaller games is a good one! You don't need to play 1850. In fact, I'm loving the 500 point Combat Patrols right now for their speed and ferocity! 1000 point games are also really cool.
Worst case scenario, just say no! If they want to play with their 5-Knight armies, just say that isn't the game you're looking to play. This game's about your enjoyment too. If you honestly can't get a game in without there being multiple super-heavies on the table, then I don't know what to say aside from find a different FLGS or find the group of players that limit themselves!
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
We play BA vs Necron or Eldar all the time. You just give the BA player some extra stuff, recognizing that it's a pre-2015 codex, and that it's weaker. Same with Guard. Not really that hard to do, man.
If the BA player wants to just use pods for a taxi service, well that's different.
It just boils down to 1850, 2000, 2500 points... if you look at the table (because terrain matters, a lot), look at the 2 armies on side tables undeployed, two experienced players can easily tell within seconds, "Nah, this isn't going to work". So you just tweak it a little. And if you get slaughtered, laugh it off, say, "holy crap that was bad", tweak it more, play again.
That only works with relatively small and well knit gaming groups playing casual games that all realize, and acknowledge, the score.
For pickup play, or something like a store league (even if it's not really competitive), that's just not typically a feasible option.
Admittedly a long time ago (like 3e) I did play quite a few pickup games at a gaming club, and this was always what we did if someone had an obviously inferior army. I think, looking at today's armies, if someone looks at an average Tyranid or Blood Angels or Guard army and looks at an average Decurion or Warhost or Maniple, and can't acknowledge that the two armies aren't equivalent, it hardly matters; I would rather pass than play with them, regardless of what I have
I've had Eldar since Rogue Trader, and have always taken out some stuff if my opponent is playing some army that is obviously weaker when playing them; Grey Knights too (never had this problem with BA, hand rarely with DE). It's usually something along the lines of, "You think we'll be cool if I take out this?" and move some of my units to the side. On the odd occasion, I could be wrong, too. An opponent might decline, and just win the game, maybe because they're very clever, or I misjudged their army, or misunderstood some little trick
Jayden63 wrote: 2 - I have 1850 points of X army. Thats it. I don't have 3000 points of X army with which to trim down to 1850.
In the olden days, you could get in two pick-up games in a afternoon. (three if one game turned particularly one sided). Now, its just really hard to get in one pick-up game that both players can enjoy equally.
Maybe you should play "casual" 1500 pt games instead of fixed 1850 pt games.
Jayden63 wrote: I think the whole "just talk it out with your opponent before hand" argument is a bit flawed for a few reasons.
1 - I dont have the cell phone number of anyone who might show up at my FLGS on any given day. So I have to show up to talk.
2 - I have 1850 points of X army. Thats it. I don't have 3000 points of X army with which to trim down to 1850. I have what I have, and in no way shape or form does it have the power to take down 5 knights. Hell, 3 knights plus other stuff would be a significant challenge. Let alone multiple wraith knights in an eldar army.
So because of problems 1 and 2 I'm stuck playing whatever is in the shop and it up to the other guy to have to fit with me. Which isn't to say that it may or may not be possible because maybe they are in the same boat as I am.
and lastly 3 - I dont have half a day to devote to playing just one game. Finding an opponent, agreeing on a power level for the game, rewriting their list, going through all the random rolls, then actually playing the other game.
In the olden days, you could get in two pick-up games in a afternoon. (three if one game turned particularly one sided). Now, its just really hard to get in one pick-up game that both players can enjoy equally.
That is the worst part of the hobby. You can't just go and play a game anymore.
I hear you on these problems. I've gotten so used to pre-organizing my games, that I can't really remember the last time I had a game that wasn't (outside a tournament)! It just works so well towards having a good time that the idea of just bringing an army with me to play whoever shows up doesn't even enter into my mind. Whenever I meet a new player, I direct them to the forum where our community gathers to pre-organize games, I give them my email address, and I make a sincere effort to showing them that I look forward to our game.
The suggestion to play smaller games is a good one! You don't need to play 1850. In fact, I'm loving the 500 point Combat Patrols right now for their speed and ferocity! 1000 point games are also really cool.
Worst case scenario, just say no! If they want to play with their 5-Knight armies, just say that isn't the game you're looking to play. This game's about your enjoyment too. If you honestly can't get a game in without there being multiple super-heavies on the table, then I don't know what to say aside from find a different FLGS or find the group of players that limit themselves!
Yeah, one must remember that 1850 is actually a *large* army, and a relatively long game. At any point level, it CAN be frustratingly hard to win long-term if you ONLY have X points of models, and your opponent owns 2X points of models, or X points of models that happens to be a lopsided matchup. Invariably, if you are in a fairly competitive meta, you'll end up with a guy who sees you, swaps something in, and you're screwed, if they know what you're going to field.
Frankly, the person who wants to play 1850 points of Space Wolves models that he likes and struggled to cobble together exactly that army and the person who wants to play 5 imperial knights with a case of other stuff... these two people want to play different games. They're better off at different tables.
But the hobby hasn't really changed. It has been like this since the 90s Hell people used to complain about the folks who had too many rhinos, lol.
AtraUnam wrote: I'm selling my entire army. Armies are balanced around narrative rather than gameplay.
In other words they aren't balanced at all where it matters.
Key is finding a group that approaches things the same way. I've been playing since Rogue Trader and the only reason I still enjoy playing today is because my group is all on the same page on approach to the game and power level for things. If I had to rely on playing in local stores in pickup games regularly I'd probably be thinning out my own collection as well. I save in store gaming for things like Bloodbowl and Flames of War which are much better balanced and controlled games than 40k has become.
CSM 6k points CSM 4k points
CSM 4.5k points CSM 3.5k points
and Daemons 4k points each
Renegades 4k points
SM 4k points
SM 2.5k Points
3K 2.3k
EW, MW and LW British in Flames of War
The 1850 number was just something I picked out. The point I was trying to make was some people just have what they have. A 1500 point of X army may not be able to compete against 3 Kinghts. A 1000 point army may have no way of competing against a single Wraithknight.
The point is that there are models that break the game at any point level if the other guy doesn't tailor. And some players just don't have the models to do said tailoring.
With the bringing in of Appoc level models into what we used to call standard games has changed the state of 40K. And not for the better IMO. Which is what the OP is originally asking.
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:
Akiasura wrote: Even without the decurion, a RP roll makes them tougher than a marine for similar points. Striking last is rough, but a BA squad charging should do what,
2/3, 2/3, 1/2, 2/3 =8/54 wounds per attack off the charge? (Are they ws 5? Can't recall, assumed they were). That's not a ton of kills (2?). After charging the numbers get a lot worse, most likely inflicting one wound between loss of attacks and lower strength, unless they go bp and cc. In which case you can rapid fire at least once before engangemen.
Striking back is
1/2, 1/2, 1,3 = 1/12, so your most likely losing combat by 2. You're not going to run, odds are, and a BA squad shouldn't reach you unmolested.
Wraiths and tomb blades aren't terrible in melee. I'd put wraiths against any unit in the BA and expect them to win combat.
Not taking wraiths is handicapping yourself, and you can't ignore one of the best cc units in the game and say necrons have bad melee.
BA can bring more than just Tac squads. A 5+ FNP is not a great lifesaver when hits bypass armor saves. 3-2+ armor saves on most SM units can be hard to crack in melee without lychguard, praetorians, overlord, or wraiths. And I do handicap myself in certain games. Creates better games. Also, dice averages don't work so well when most dice are not true 16.666%.
Right, you need melee units to do damage in melee. I'm not arguing that. You can still shoot all their melee units quite easily, since they are slow, not that tough per points, or just lose to your melee units.
I'm not familiar with BA, what units do they have besides termies (which are bad) and DC that hit harder than a tactical squad, point for point?
The problem with handicapping yourself is it throws your arguments that BA can stand up to necrons right out the window. It suggests that people who say pick up games are dead and deciding lists with your opponent is now mandatory, instead of something unheard of or considered cheating are correct. You can't make claims about the power level of relevant dexes if you're going to pretend certain units don't exist.
Otherwise eldar are quite reasonable because only guardians exist, and tyranids are strictly bottom tier because flyrants arent a factor.
If you have read any of my other posts then you will know that I don't go blindly into matches. I play pre-arranged matches.
I have read your posts. The original conversation we were having is that pick up games are dead because the power variance between factions (not lists, factions now) is too high to allow people to just show up and play. Obviously if you sit down and allow a BA player to take an optimized list, and you refuse to take any good units, then you can get a 50/50 game.
The problem is when you make sweeping statements like "Beating necrons with CSM/BA is easy, I do it/can't beat them!", and it turns out you're playing in an extremely casual meta. We even run some numbers to show how bad BA are, and you throw them out the window without refuting them. You claim Necron CC is bad, but don't want to include any of the necron units that are actually...good at melee.
You're arguing from a completely different viewpoint from most posters involved in this conversation, and trying to assume otherwise.
I don't spam my best units. If I'm going to spend hours on a hobby, I want to make sure that its going to be a fun game, and not a drawn conclusion.
I play a few other table top hobbies. For 3rd-5th edition, I didn't need to pre-arrange or list tailor anything to have a fun game. In other games, where I spend hours as well, I don't need to do so to have a fun game. This is unique to 40k about halfway through 6th and its gotten worse now.
Not every 40k player is a TFG who plays WAAC lists who cares more about winning than both players having fun and enjoying the game.
No one is claiming that everyone is like that, or that anyone is like that at all.
Believe it or not, people are perfectly able to disagree about the power differences between units/factions and not be TFG. I don't think you are TFG because you think BA and CSM are fine as is, when most people would argue otherwise.
Unless you are implying that anyone who disagrees with you about units/factions is TFG, I don't see your point here.
With a little communication and brain power, all codexes can have balanced games with other codexs, be it by toning down the list of the more powerful codex or playing maelstrom missions.
It's not about a little communication or brain power, so lets not make passive aggressive comments because people disagree with you on the internet.
Take, for example, any of the many riptide threads. They often reached several pages, roughly over 6, and no consensus was reached.
Is the riptide overpowered? Is it just the upgrade that is overpowered? If so, by how much? How do we fix it? Is it worth taking without the upgrade, or should we just up the points? Can I play it against some armies and not others? What if I want to play 2 games that day?
It's a huge model that is pretty expensive, if I had one I'd want to field it. But it would obliterate my CSM without even trying. It does fine against other lists (guard, for example). So if you have two games set up with a CSM and Guard player, do you take it or not? Do you adjust the point cost? How much and on what?
Maelstorm missions require heavy house rules to be fair. Drawing a bad card or something else that's random can ruin it for you. Faster armies, which are generally the stronger armies anyway (outside of DE) benefit a lot more than the slower armies, so if anything those missions make the system run worse.
Currently, I play with 6 other people at a friends house. We don't bother at the FLGS anymore since it became too difficult. We play once a month, at most, and generally don't care too much about what we throw down. Mostly, we play because we have such large collections and want to use them so our wives don't throw them out.
We have a lot more fun playing Necromunda, Mordenheim, or WMH which just involves bringing our stuff to a store. Necromunda can be a pain with terrain but its still a fun game and can be played without list building or a debate on power levels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/01 17:25:28
Martel732 wrote: "Nothing wrong with BA either. Hell, thats the only army I have yet to be able to beat in the past 5 months with my Necrons"
Are you remembering to put your models out? Because that's about the only way BA can beat Necrons. BA are god awful and very possibly the worst list in the game. So yea, there IS something wrong with BA.
CSM and IG would like to have a word with you about being "the worst list in the game".
IG aren't great... but they're not 'that' bad.
They lack their own formations and don't have any exceptionally great units (though they do have some 'good' ones), but they're still fairly usable. Admittedly I do struggle with mine but I still get roughly a 50-50 win-loss rate. Would be nice to see a new 'dex for them but they haven't really had any real new units (bar those that used to be forgeworld) in about 3 editions now?
Jayden63 wrote: I think the whole "just talk it out with your opponent before hand" argument is a bit flawed for a few reasons.
1 - I dont have the cell phone number of anyone who might show up at my FLGS on any given day. So I have to show up to talk.
2 - I have 1850 points of X army. Thats it. I don't have 3000 points of X army with which to trim down to 1850. I have what I have, and in no way shape or form does it have the power to take down 5 knights. Hell, 3 knights plus other stuff would be a significant challenge. Let alone multiple wraith knights in an eldar army.
So because of problems 1 and 2 I'm stuck playing whatever is in the shop and it up to the other guy to have to fit with me. Which isn't to say that it may or may not be possible because maybe they are in the same boat as I am.
and lastly 3 - I dont have half a day to devote to playing just one game. Finding an opponent, agreeing on a power level for the game, rewriting their list, going through all the random rolls, then actually playing the other game.
In the olden days, you could get in two pick-up games in a afternoon. (three if one game turned particularly one sided). Now, its just really hard to get in one pick-up game that both players can enjoy equally.
That is the worst part of the hobby. You can't just go and play a game anymore.
1. Pre-arranging games is quite easy in today's world. Most stores has some sort of social media page where players communicate and set up games. If the person who you're playing didn't, swap contact numbers and set up future games.
2. Can't help you here besides telling you to play a smaller game where both sides would be even with the given miniatures, or buy more miniatures. This is not a cheap hobby, never has been, never will be. If cost is a big issue, might wanna look into a different system.
3. Within 5-10 mins one should be able to agree on a type of game, and power level used in the game. If it takes longer, then I would argue that someones social skills are lacking.
I'm trying not to just sound flippant here, but i don't think you've thought through how things end up working.
yes, it's easy to casually arrange a game, but i find it's an eldar/necron player who's most up for a game without requiring pre-stipulations for the game/forces. Mainly because of thier codecies.
Realisticly there is no way of having 'even' sides - this was GW's only job with the rulebooks and they deliberately f***ed it up to promote sales. Prices were actally quite reasonable back in the early ninteys - my pocket money was a fiver a week and i could buy a new addition to my army each week - sometimes i'd save up and get a mail order troll to send me some bits!
I agree - It should only take 5-10 mins (takes less when im fighting Tau Tse Tung - he's a good bloke) but have you ever tried to reason to an eldar or necron player that they should tone thier force down for you? It aint going to happen in 10 mins!
Lastly - To answer your post waaay back (i've been really busy!) i also like an apocalypse game (5000+) but there is no point in me bringing a warhound and 4 imperial knights to a table which has a revenant, a scorpion grav-tank and two wraithknights - if the wraithknights weren't bad enough the damn revenant is just as hardcore but also ignores 2/3 of all firing directed at it including MY ranged D, cause, y'know, reasons..
I actually want to give that lot a go because of the fluff of imperial vs eldar knight households, but like it has been shown in threads on dakka in recent months, there is no point in trying to match that kind of points and rules imbalance.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-px27tzAtVwZpZ4ljopV2w "ashtrays and teacups do not count as cover"
"jack of all trades, master of none; certainly better than a master of one"
The Ordo Reductor - the guy's who make wonderful things like the Landraider Achillies, but can't use them in battle..
The Psychic Phase was a negative development, IMO. It's like stopping a game of 40k for a game of Yahtzee, and it no longer feels like a Sorcerer of Tzeentch is casting powers, but rather the dude in the Cheetos-stained AC/DC shirt across the table.
There are too many special rules. There are just too many. I hardly ever play a game that doesn't require significant time looking up rules.
Lords of War can be a bit much, and some things like Imperial Knights, which should be Lords of War, are not appropriately classified, IMO.
Other than that, I'm still enjoying the game, and none of the above ruins the experience for me. It's helpful to have opponents who are more into models and fluff than power-gaming.
-- $k 
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~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
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CSM 3.5k points
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SM 4k points
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2.3k
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