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Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why on earth are you assigning more credibility to the rules writers?

Because math is a universal language. And the fluff has changed to many times for this genre that I can't take it seriously at all. Mighty mighty terminator armor with a 16% failure rate. Real mighty there. Also, the fluff doesn't help me on Saturdays. In any way. I can cry about what happened in such and such novel, but it's still a 2+ save on an expensive model that will just die to Xeno guns. That's what should be happening in the fluff, btw. The fluff should obey the mathematical modeling in the game, because when it doesn't, it loses all credibility.

Why are you even in the background forum, then? Other than to stand on your box and preach that we all are sinners and should repent from our fluffy ways.

My main way of interacting with 40k is with the RPGs, which line up rather well with most of the game's lore, so your complaints about Terminator Armour's alleged failure rate bothers me none - in the RPG, if a Guardsman with a knife stabs a Terminator, he will never do anything at all. So it certainly does help me on saturdays. And if you feel it does not line up well enough with your game, well, then you're just SOL.

Ever considered the RPGs? I am sure you could use your BA there, though I suspect it is a bit too complicated for your average 1850 pt army.

The lasgun can overloaded, wont hurt terminator, but it can punch through both PA and the Marine toughness.

And once again, pc's throws that out of the window, my Scion character can kill a SM in 3 shots with his hellgun, meanwhile the guy with the multilaser with kill a Termin in a single volley, as well.

GG, marines.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The lasgun can overloaded, wont hurt terminator, but it can punch through both PA and the Marine toughness.

I assume those are OW rules? We only do Deathwatch, Black Crusade and Rogue Trader.

It wouldn't surprise me if they buffed Guardsmen highly in OW. I mean, in Black Crusade they nerfed Astartes to the ground to make it less of a nobrainer choice between Astartes and mortal, but luckily that was fixable (as we are not powergamers anyway so we don't need that).

And once again, pc's throws that out of the window, my Scion character can kill a SM in 3 shots with his hellgun, meanwhile the guy with the multilaser with kill a Termin in a single volley, as well.

GG, marines.

Well, PCs basically are novel protagonists with plot armour, so I am assuming no fate points or the like.

I can assure you that your Scion character would struggle quite significantly against my Raven Guard sniper with 80 BS and agility, +20 to concealment, shadowing and silent move, and shooting buffs stacking to make his stalker bolter hit (and pen) like a multi-melta.

It'd be down to who sees who first, actually, since we've got about the same builds (and BS, for that matter).

And besides, the Marines in Deathwatch are horribly OP anyway

Especially the bolter, incidentally.

The difference is that my guy can tank a fair few hotshots. I doubt your character can tank many multimelta equivalents (especially since I can dodge them with that tasty AG80). And I suspect I will win initiative.

We have made many little fixes here and there, of course, such as nerfing dodge and parry by making it necessary to get more degrees of success on it than the foe got on their attack roll to succeed....

...Anyway, this is kind of offtopic, mm?

Mhmm, I have a talent that negate a good part of your agility for dodge rolls, meaning I'd get the advantage as far as dodging go.


But yes, your character would have the advantage overall (it makes sense, SM vs human) but it would not be a completely one sided crushing victory, bar bad rolls.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And besides, the Marines in Deathwatch are horribly OP anyway

Especially the bolter, incidentally.

The NPC CSM get those too so at least it's fair!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
But yes, your character would have the advantage overall (it makes sense, SM vs human) but it would not be a completely one sided crushing victory, bar bad rolls.

PM me your character sheets. I'd like to do the mathhammer.

Don't have them on me, we switched to Pathfinder some time ago, unfortunately, I was told the campaign was just on pause.

Martel732 wrote:Just dropping in to remind people of the mathematical reality and not just what some BL author came up with. Also, the divide between how the almighty fluff claims things work and how it actually works is quite embittering, to be honest. The fluff forgot to mention that the Eldar are not to be engaged. Ever. Because they're just better.

Actually, the fluff is very clear in several places that messing with Eldar is a fool's game. :p

Kor Phaeron has some Augmentation and he wears Cataprachii pattern terminator armour
He is a Guardsman wearing terminator (Fluff,rule and model wise)

One shouldn't forget that there's a significant difference between a Space Marine and an Inquisitor (no, not the wearer) when it comes to PA/TDA/Artificer armors.

The SM armors are usually "standardized" Mark something armors made to keep working for weeks on end with only rudimentary service as in whatever the marine himself and the company TechMarine can provide. It must be as rugged as possible, using only the most reliable and proven parts.

An Inquisitor's suit can incorporate any number of more experimental systems and improvements, and such an individual will have a full support staff just for his suit. It doesn't impact his work in any significant way if the suit is in the workshop every time he sleeps. He can afford to have even more technical bling-bling than any marine.

One is a Jeep (a real go-into-the-woods vehicle), the other a shiny and comfortable luxury SUV.

Spetulhu wrote:
One shouldn't forget that there's a significant difference between a Space Marine and an Inquisitor (no, not the wearer) when it comes to PA/TDA/Artificer armors.

The SM armors are usually "standardized" Mark something armors made to keep working for weeks on end with only rudimentary service as in whatever the marine himself and the company TechMarine can provide. It must be as rugged as possible, using only the most reliable and proven parts.

An Inquisitor's suit can incorporate any number of more experimental systems and improvements, and such an individual will have a full support staff just for his suit. It doesn't impact his work in any significant way if the suit is in the workshop every time he sleeps. He can afford to have even more technical bling-bling than any marine.

One is a Jeep (a real go-into-the-woods vehicle), the other a shiny and comfortable luxury SUV.

Good point well made

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Just dropping in to remind people of the mathematical reality and not just what some BL author came up with. Also, the divide between how the almighty fluff claims things work and how it actually works is quite embittering, to be honest. The fluff forgot to mention that the Eldar are not to be engaged. Ever. Because they're just better.

Actually, the fluff is very clear in several places that messing with Eldar is a fool's game. :p

And if you read the BA fluff, they actually do things. Which they really can't, because GW says so. Fluff = meaningless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why on earth are you assigning more credibility to the rules writers?

Because math is a universal language. And the fluff has changed to many times for this genre that I can't take it seriously at all. Mighty mighty terminator armor with a 16% failure rate. Real mighty there. Also, the fluff doesn't help me on Saturdays. In any way. I can cry about what happened in such and such novel, but it's still a 2+ save on an expensive model that will just die to Xeno guns. That's what should be happening in the fluff, btw. The fluff should obey the mathematical modeling in the game, because when it doesn't, it loses all credibility.

Why are you even in the background forum, then? Other than to stand on your box and preach that we all are sinners and should repent from our fluffy ways.

My main way of interacting with 40k is with the RPGs, which line up rather well with most of the game's lore, so your complaints about Terminator Armour's alleged failure rate bothers me none - in the RPG, if a Guardsman with a knife stabs a Terminator, he will never do anything at all. So it certainly does help me on saturdays. And if you feel it does not line up well enough with your game, well, then you're just SOL.

Ever considered the RPGs? I am sure you could use your BA there, though I suspect it is a bit too complicated for your average 1850 pt army.

Spoiler:

Knife deals 1d5 damage. The guardsman has a strength value between 2 and 5 depending on if he's just an average man or a truly rare Catachan brute, which is added to the knife damage for a total of between 2 and 10 damage possible for a knife attack with all factors counted in.

TDA offers 14 armour, and the attack damage must be higher to do anything. IOW, nothing happens no matter how you turn that fancy knife of yours. The same goes for a lasgun, obviously, which deals 1d10+3 damage (so between 4 and 13) which is still never going to do anything to the TDA.

Of course, the Space Marine inside will have his own Toughness bonus of 10-12 or so, which means that the knife attack would need to do between 24 and 26+ damage to actually do anything to the guy inside even if it manages to get through the armour.

Good luck, Guardsman.

I'm not here much, I just think that it's hilarious what the fluff SAYS about terminators and then what the REALITY is. Terminator armor is a joke.

This is a fictional setting. Your "reality" has no place in it.

 Psienesis wrote:
This is a fictional setting. Your "reality" has no place in it.

The reality as GW has defined it in the collective gaming experience, then. Terminator armor fails 16% of the time, and no author can make that not true.

They can, because the table-top game has, in its underlying philosophy, the idea that it is supposed to be "fair" and, also, makes use of the d6 (most common die) rather than the more-granular d10 or d20, available to gamers everywhere.

Sucks to be terminators I guess, then.

I'm guessing you have the same excuse for the BA, then. In fluff, they actually win sometimes. Or a lot if you read their codex. In the game, they can't find their own butt with both hands. That's what they are to me.

I can't stand the discrepancy, and to me, the wargame has precedence, as it is what I spend way more time doing.

It doesn't help that BL authors suck. They have minimal writing skills to say the least. The fluff has been absurd and silly since 2nd ed. I'll let you guys get back to it.

Spetulhu wrote:
One shouldn't forget that there's a significant difference between a Space Marine and an Inquisitor (no, not the wearer) when it comes to PA/TDA/Artificer armors.

The SM armors are usually "standardized" Mark something armors made to keep working for weeks on end with only rudimentary service as in whatever the marine himself and the company TechMarine can provide. It must be as rugged as possible, using only the most reliable and proven parts.

An Inquisitor's suit can incorporate any number of more experimental systems and improvements, and such an individual will have a full support staff just for his suit. It doesn't impact his work in any significant way if the suit is in the workshop every time he sleeps. He can afford to have even more technical bling-bling than any marine.

One is a Jeep (a real go-into-the-woods vehicle), the other a shiny and comfortable luxury SUV.

Marines do spent pretty much every second they are not fighting or praying on maintaining their equipment though. Meanwhile, Inquisitors also need to operate in rough conditions and do not always have a support staff.
I think the important difference is not in available maintenance, but in production. SM armour needed to be mass-produced for millions of warriors, and that is why it is standardised. Inquisitor armour on the other hand is handmade for every individual.

Martel732 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
This is a fictional setting. Your "reality" has no place in it.

The reality as GW has defined it in the collective gaming experience, then. Terminator armor fails 16% of the time, and no author can make that not true.

You have, sadly, totally misunderstood the whole idea. the background isn't something bolted on to the game to make the models look nice; the game is bolted on to the background to give you a way to reenact it (imperfectly).

Apart from anything else, Terminator armour has:
a 0% chance of protecting the wearer from a lascannon hit (1st edition, 3rd-7th editions)
a 41% chance of protecting the wearer from a lascannon hit (2nd edition)
a 50% chance of protecting the wearer from a lascannon hit (Epic: Armageddon)
and I can't remember how it was handled in the previous three Epic editions, Space Crusade, Advanced Space Crusade, Space Hulk (those three combined damage and armour penetration into one roll, IIRC), Tyranid Attack or any of the RPGs.

Clearly you can't rely on the game rules to define the setting, as contemporary sources have different numbers.

If you say so. Your numbers are wrong, but I get the point. I just really despise GW's fiction and fluff, so I'm very much inclined to ignore it completely.

a 0% chance of protecting the wearer from a lascannon hit (1st edition, 3rd-7th editions)
a 41% chance of protecting the wearer from a lascannon hit (2nd edition)

6th and 7th have 5++s though no? So thats a 33% chance to save a lcannon?

And 2nd it was 33% - only a 9+ on 2d6 could save you - lcannons had -6 modifiers.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
The lasgun can overloaded, wont hurt terminator, but it can punch through both PA and the Marine toughness.

I assume those are OW rules? We only do Deathwatch, Black Crusade and Rogue Trader.

It wouldn't surprise me if they buffed Guardsmen highly in OW. I mean, in Black Crusade they nerfed Astartes to the ground to make it less of a nobrainer choice between Astartes and mortal, but luckily that was fixable (as we are not powergamers anyway so we don't need that).

They are buffed in OW, but then again the PC guardsmen are kinda explicitly NOT your average guardsmen. They're definitely a cut above.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm not here much, I just think that it's hilarious what the fluff SAYS about terminators and then what the REALITY is. Terminator armor is a joke.

Not so much if you play 2nd edition

Terminator armor wouldn't be a joke if Terminators were all T5 WS5 with 2 wounds like they should be.

TDA should give you +1T and +1W on top of the saves.

If your going to pretend that everything acts in the lore just as it has always in the game then i'm going to take my old school terminator armour save of a 3+ on 2D6

The fluff is not the game, deal with it

Martel732 wrote:
I just really despise GW's fiction and fluff, so I'm very much inclined to ignore it completely.

Then I must ask: what are you doing in the Background forum?

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not here much, I just think that it's hilarious what the fluff SAYS about terminators and then what the REALITY is. Terminator armor is a joke.

The 'reality' is that the rules aren't granular or complex enough to properly represent the VAST array of things that exist in the 40k universe. Yeah TA fails 16% of the time (in this edition anyway) but if we use that logic a Space Marine will miss 33% of his shots at targets as close as a few meters away. With all their fancy tech some races will still miss a stationary Land Raider 50% of the time!

I mean, so long as you're going with only D6s, 16% is literally the smallest deviation you can have in ratings. But it's only one version of the rules for TA, and an abstracted one at that.

Tactical Dreadnought (Terminator) Armour can only be worn by Astartes, it's too heavy for anyone else.

Regular humans can have Power Armour though. Sisters of Battle, Inquisitor's, high-ranking Imperial Guard commanders, etc. wear it regularly.

 Harriticus wrote:
Tactical Dreadnought (Terminator) Armour can only be worn by Astartes, it's too heavy for anyone else.

The wargear options for Inquisitors say otherwise.

TDA and PA made for Astartes can only be worn by them due to the Black Carapace interface and being a gajillion sizes too large for a normal human to wear, it would be like a 5 year old kid trying to wear the Hulk's pants. But versions of this armor is made for humans.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
Tactical Dreadnought (Terminator) Armour can only be worn by Astartes, it's too heavy for anyone else.

The wargear options for Inquisitors say otherwise.

TDA and PA made for Astartes can only be worn by them due to the Black Carapace interface and being a gajillion sizes too large for a normal human to wear, it would be like a 5 year old kid trying to wear the Hulk's pants. But versions of this armor is made for humans.

I imagine the Inquisitors would look like Kor Phaeron, another human in TDA (though Kor Phaeron is 'half astartes', in between human and SM).



See, there's a little guy inside all that armour!

Now, an actual Terminus Consolaris is probably outside an Inquisitor's reach (it was, as far as I know, unique, even back in 30k when the tech was better) but something similar? For sure.