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The newer codexes give the impression that codexes are just a collection of datasheets (or whatever they are called) containing units, formations and detachments usually of the same faction. This makes it easy to incorporate etrxa units such as the WD looted wagon or models like cypher and the deamon king of invisibility. If gw updated their codexes and did not update those external sources we would probably still use them. We would start using he newest version of the rules if they published a newer datasheet, but no one stopped using cypher just because their blood angels codex was updated.

Now lets look with that same 7th mindset at old characters that did not get an entry in the newer codexes.
They did not update them, so in some way the entry in the old codex would be the most current entry.
Would this make them "legal to field" again ?

Aside from the legality/raw would it hurt the game or would their be any problems if we kept on using the unit entries out of the older codexes ?

I think your biggest issue is going to be that the rules are no longer available through primary sources to the gaming population. This creates a schism wherein players who played a previous edition have more unit choices than players who did not play a previous edition. This is never an ideal situation.

Additionally, as "entire army" rules change or are invalidated, these old units will not necessarily work "correctly" or at all. We see similar issues with supplemental White Dwarf content. The most recent non-Apocalypse rules for Deathwatch Marines appeared in a very old White Dwarf during the time of (I believe) 2nd Edition. Technically, these rules have never been replaced, and so COULD be considered active. They don't really work, though. If you want to equip them, you have to refer to the "Space Marine Armory", which hasn't been a thing for years. As such, they're unusable.

Additionally, as "entire army" rules change or are invalidated, these old units will not necessarily work "correctly" or at all

This could be the strongest argument against it. Units like old psykers or with mismatching army wide special rules such as old zogwort are a nightmare to use in the 7th rules without any house ruling and should probably be avoided outside the most casual friendly games. But what about models that don't seem to suffer from mismatches in ruling such as marbo.

Legally, no. Outside of that you can do anything you want so long as you and your opponent agree to it.

 Kriswall wrote:
I think your biggest issue is going to be that the rules are no longer available through primary sources to the gaming population. This creates a schism wherein players who played a previous edition have more unit choices than players who did not play a previous edition. This is never an ideal situation.

Additionally, as "entire army" rules change or are invalidated, these old units will not necessarily work "correctly" or at all. We see similar issues with supplemental White Dwarf content. The most recent non-Apocalypse rules for Deathwatch Marines appeared in a very old White Dwarf during the time of (I believe) 2nd Edition. Technically, these rules have never been replaced, and so COULD be considered active. They don't really work, though. If you want to equip them, you have to refer to the "Space Marine Armory", which hasn't been a thing for years. As such, they're unusable.

Pretty much. However, it should be noted that including characters from outdated codices (such as 3rd Edition Chaos Doomrider) would be considered by most as House Ruling them in, so House Ruling in Characters who have "entire army" rules to be reduced to "his detachment" would be just as fine.

And I think Deathwatch did have a 3rd Edition version from the WD article.

So, as with all questions like these, its going to be better to see how much your group is up for it, then the pure legality of it all.

 Yarium wrote:
Legally, no. Outside of that you can do anything you want so long as you and your opponent agree to it.

I feel like you should be right, but I can't find in anywhere in the rules.

So, as with all questions like these, its going to be better to see how much your group is up for it, then the pure legality of it all.

This is the best method, and I would it not have any other way. But I'm still curious if there is anything in the rules at all prevents me from fielding them.

Yay 2nd Ed named Daemon Princes! Or perhaps not. If you're in an OOP production you cease to exist the only grey area being things printed in WD which we have no idea about...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yay 2nd Ed named Daemon Princes! Or perhaps not. If you're in an OOP production you cease to exist the only grey area being things printed in WD which we have no idea about...

Anything before the current White Dwarf series, i.e. Issues 1-87, is currently out of print. Hence, if you're using the out of print standard to determine if rules are valid... then all those old White Dwarf articles are in the same boat as a 2nd Edition Space Marine Codex.

HIWPI:

My group has a default understanding that anything out of print is no longer valid. Anything in print (via print book, iBook or ePub) and available for sale is valid. The only real exception being any Limited Edition rules (such as Vrosh Tattersoul) that were designed for the current edition (7th), but are out of print, are valid so long as you can produce the rules when you play a game. The Skyhammer formation is the same. It's obviously intended to be available for use with 7th Edition, but isn't currently available for sale.

 Kriswall wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yay 2nd Ed named Daemon Princes! Or perhaps not. If you're in an OOP production you cease to exist the only grey area being things printed in WD which we have no idea about...

Anything before the current White Dwarf series, i.e. Issues 1-87, is currently out of print. Hence, if you're using the out of print standard to determine if rules are valid... then all those old White Dwarf articles are in the same boat as a 2nd Edition Space Marine Codex.

HIWPI:

My group has a default understanding that anything out of print is no longer valid. Anything in print (via print book, iBook or ePub) and available for sale is valid. The only real exception being any Limited Edition rules (such as Vrosh Tattersoul) that were designed for the current edition (7th), but are out of print, are valid so long as you can produce the rules when you play a game. The Skyhammer formation is the same. It's obviously intended to be available for use with 7th Edition, but isn't currently available for sale.

Sounds good to me.

7th edition dropped in White Dwarf Weekly #16. I don't recall if there were any datasheets in those first fifteen issues that could cause a problem (or if there were any datasheets to begin with).

 Ghaz wrote:
7th edition dropped in White Dwarf Weekly #16. I don't recall if there were any datasheets in those first fifteen issues that could cause a problem (or if there were any datasheets to begin with).

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/648233.page#7831277

01 - Belegar Ironhammer (Fantasy Dwarves)
02 - Grimm Burloksson & Gyrobomber (Fantasy Dwarves)
03 - Dwarf Ironbreakers (Fantasy Dwarves)
04 - Knight Paladin & Knight Errant (6th Edition Imperial Knights) OUTDATED
07 - Imperial Knight Household Spearhead (6th Edition Imperial Knights Apocalypse Formation)
09 - Taurox, Taurox Prime & Tempestus Scions (Militarum Tempestus)
10 - Wyvern (Astra Militarum)
11 - Bullgryns (Astra Militarum)
13 - Araloth & Durthu (Fantasy Wood Elves)
14 - Sisters of the Thorn & Wildwood Rangers (Fantasy Wood Elves)
15 - Dark Eldar Kabalite Stormsurge (Apoc Formation) & Eldar Ghost Warrior Warhost (Apoc Formation)

Not every issue had rules, but most of them did. Only the rules in issue #4 are outdated because they were replaced in the 7th Edition Imperial Knights Codex. Everything else (other than the Fantasy stuff) is current.

I was more looking for datasheets that weren't a preview of a codex. What you've listed only leaves two Apocalypse formations.

 Ghaz wrote:
I was more looking for datasheets that weren't a preview of a codex. What you've listed only leaves two Apocalypse formations.

Three. The IK Apoc Formation is presumably still valid as the units it references still exist. This is much the same way that the Necron Conclave of the Burning One formation is still considered to be current despite the fact that it was released BEFORE the current Necron Codex.

But I see what you're getting at. There are very few White Dwarf Exclusive datasheets and none of them were in the first 16 issues. I THINK these are the only White Dwarf exclusive datasheets. There were also some exclusive Detachments/Formations, but I'm not listing those out right now. Mostly, they came out around the same time as the Blood Angels/Necrons campaign, if you're interested.

21 - Looted Wagons (Orks) EXCLUSIVE TO WHITE DWARF
24 - Gerantius (Imperial Knights) EXCLUSIVE TO WHITE DWARF
60 - Bloodthirsters of Khorne (40k Chaos Daemons) EXCLUSIVE TO WHITE DWARF (sort of... this is the only way to take them in a proper Chaos Daemons detachment)
63 - Onager Dunecrawlers (Skitarii), Promethium Relay Pipes & Plasma Obliterator (Fortifications) EXCLUSIVE TO WHITE DWARF (the Plasma Obliterator only)

I don't see why not, I still see people use Saint Celestine

Opponents have to agree on point value, which Units will be allowed and a few other details before sitting down at a game.
Take this moment to talk to your opponent about using abandoned Units, as 7th Edition makes this discussion mandatory.

JinxDragon wrote:
Opponents have to agree on point value, which Units will be allowed and a few other details before sitting down at a game.
Take this moment to talk to your opponent about using abandoned Units, as 7th Edition makes this discussion mandatory.

Quasi-mandatory. I think the overwhelming majority of players DON'T actually have this discussion and instead assume that anything GW has said is fair game IS fair game. Occasionally I'll see someone say something like "is it cool if I use my Stompa", but that's about it. I've never seen anyone actually have a conversation about whether or not they were allowed to build an army using Codex: Tau Empire before a game.

Having said that, if you're looking to use a unit that is no longer available in the current codex, have a quick conversation with your opponent. Most people are reasonable, but there are quite a few players (myself included) who would generally prefer you to just use only current rules. In my mind, asking to use an 'abandoned' unit is a hop, skip and jump away from asking to use a home brew character. I'd probably allow it in a casual game, but not in any sort of organized play.

Ignored or not, I still find it interesting that additional instructions where added to 7th Edition to specifically allow players to decide what Units will be allowed.
Cause that really was a massively pressing issue that Game Workshop just had to 'correct' immediately....

I brought something like this up once. It started when I got to thinking about all the out of date forgeworld stuff that's still used and even sanctioned by ITC, yet characters that were left out like duke dliscus or vect are no longer legal.

Anyway I'll add another couple questions: why the difference in mentality when allowing old FW vs old GW?
Shouldn't the "latest printing" rule apply to any unit in the game?

yes you absolutely can, with permission from your opponent of course, like everything else.

As to the codexs, there is nothing stating you cannot use old characters or codexs with the current ed, but in general these characters may not work with the new rules, so its best to stick with the current books.

I don't know there was a forum post asking how to field some dude who had an invuln that shouldn't work anymore. I said if you get a new codex and bring characters without your opponent knowing they dropped from your dex, you're cheating be it FW or not. Which got me a ton of hate so I was like, I suppose I'm bringing old zogg and waxzdakka back, and they got all uppity... One way or the other not both, is all I'm saying. And I err on the side of current rules!

Currently it does matters if it is FW or not. The "latest printing" rule seems only to apply on FW stuff.

No one will call you out if you fielded Da rippa. Pre Codex FW Ork HQ on bike, that makes bikes troops, does not have 'ere we go, has a dodgy special rule that excludes big guns from the army ( There are no big guns any more they are called mek guns now ) and a horrible rule that makes him able to tank shock creating all sorts of unanswered questions.

But fielding Wazzdakka will raise some eye brows. Pre Codex Codex HQ on bike, that makes bikes troops. Does not have 'ere we go but has no conflicting rules.

This is kinda strange.