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The world's biggest ever trade deal was signed into existence on Monday.
The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) cuts trade tariffs and sets common standards in trade for 12 Pacific rim countries, including the US and Japan.
It marks the end of five years of often bitter and tense negotiations.
Supporters say it could be worth billions of dollars to the countries involved but critics say it was negotiated in secret and is biased towards corporations.
The deal covers about 40% of the world economy and was signed after five days of talks in Atlanta in the US.
Despite the success of the negotiations, the deal still has to be ratified by lawmakers in each country.
For President Barack Obama, the trade deal is a major victory.
He said: ``This partnership levels the playing field for our farmers, ranchers, and manufacturers by eliminating more than 18,000 taxes that various countries put on our products."
But US Senator Bernie Sanders, a US Democratic presidential candidate, said: "Wall Street and other big corporations have won again."
He said the deal would would cost US jobs and hurt consumers and that he would "do all that I can to defeat this agreement" in Congress.
China left out
China was not involved in the agreement, and the Obama administration is hoping it will be forced to accept most of the standards laid down by TTP.
He said: "When more than 95% of our potential customers live outside our borders, we can't let countries like China write the rules of the global economy.
"We should write those rules, opening new markets to American products while setting high standards for protecting workers and preserving our environment."
Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe told reporters the deal was a "major outcome not just for Japan but also for the future of the Asia-Pacific" region.
Biotech dispute
The final round of talks were delayed by negotiations over how long pharmaceutical corporations should be allowed to keep a monopoly period on their drugs.
The US wanted 12 years of protection, saying that by guaranteeing revenues over a long period it encouraged companies to invest in new research.
Australia, New Zealand and several public health groups argued for five years before allowing cheaper generic or "copy-cat" into the market.
They said a shorter patent would bring down drug costs for health services and bring lifesaving medicine to poorer patients.
Even though a compromise was reached, no definitive protection period was confirmed.
Speaking at a press conference following the deal, US Trade Representative Michael Froman hailed the deal as the first to set a period of protection for patents on new drugs, which he said would "incentivise" drug producers.
But the Washington-based Biotechnology Industry Association said it was "very disappointed" by the reports that the agreement fell short of the 12-year protections sought by the US.
So good thing or bad thing ?
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
I love to bash the Obama administration as much as the next guy...
But, let's wait for the details to emerge before bringing out the tars and feathers... m'kay?
I'm certainly interested in this:
The US wanted 12 years of protection, saying that by guaranteeing revenues over a long period it encouraged companies to invest in new research.
Australia, New Zealand and several public health groups argued for five years before allowing cheaper generic or "copy-cat" into the market.
Supporters say it could be worth billions of dollars to the countries involved but critics say it was negotiated in secret and is biased towards corporations.
Part of the TPP stipulates that a country where a TPP-engaged company is engaged in activity in cannot sue that company for damages due to harm caused by the business of that company.
So if, say, Exxon is there and spills 140 billion gallons of oil into the drinking water, the country cannot seek financial damages against Exxon.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
I'm going to call it thus: in each country, some sectors are screwed, and some benefit. Everyone gloms on the negative, and claims that they are losing out.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
It would be helpful to get a synopsis and then the agreement. reading trade deals is, however, the height of snoration.
When I read NAFTA the first time I alternated between being narcoleptic, and homicidal.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
The main power of the TPP is to increase media revenue for business that already exist. It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
It places limits on "fair use" for most copyrights, which then extend to new laws in the U.S. as well as the adopting countries.
It mainly strengthens Digital Media Copyright Act things, which is why china did not sign on. They copy/steal a lot of U.S. patents/media. It would also allow certain U.S. businesses to move out of China into other countries with even lower min wages, since Chinas has been going up.
It's true main goal is to prevent copyrighting/piracy and allow various media outlets to begin re-inflating costs for things like Movies/Music. It will also greatly benefit Pharma companies by allowing them to hold onto primary patents for much longer, and pushing back when other Pharma companies can put out generic versions of drugs. As well it makes trade secrets illegal to disclose if they are obtained by certain means, so the thing like when Subway was adding a chemical used to make yoga mats in their bread to make it more even, which also causes cancer, as a "food process" and not a "food additive" so they could bypass the FDA, the person who reported that could be brought up on violating the trade secrets part of the TPP and imprisoned, along with the evidence being taken off of various news sites.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/05 22:12:45
blaktoof wrote: Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
I think it will cost jobs. If you can produce items cheaper in third world countries, and import them into the USA without any duties paid. And then pay little or no corporation taxes.
Why would you even think of producing anything in the USA.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
blaktoof wrote: Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
The main power of the TPP is to increase media revenue for business that already exist. It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
Umm..Congress hasn't voted on it yet.
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blaktoof wrote: Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
The main power of the TPP is to increase media revenue for business that already exist. It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
blaktoof wrote: Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
I think it will cost jobs. If you can produce items cheaper in third world countries, and import them into the USA without any duties paid. And then pay little or no corporation taxes.
Why would you even think of producing anything in the USA.
Manufacturing in the western world was dead long before the TPP came around.
Here in NZ there is a subset of the population that think its the devil, most of those same people scream about anything the government does though so I ignore them. Lowering of tariffs is good for us, lets us export to foreign markets, pity we couldn't open up the dairy markets in Japan, Canada and the US though.
cincydooley wrote: If Bernie the Messiah thinks it's bad, it has to be, right?
Not quite sure where I stand yet. I can't see it not costing US jobs, but I haven't read enough about it yet to have a clearer opinion.
A bit of anecdotal evidence, a guy I know who works as a longshoreman at the Port of Tacoma has been tellin' me how already companies, and even the port itself are "prepping" for the changes should this have passed. And it ain't pretty. Worst case scenario, you're looking at half of the people gone, out of a job, and those that are left will basically be expected to take a pay cut. All the while, the companies that move stuff through the port get fatter and richer.
There may be good aspects of it, especially for the Kiwis and Aussies, but as far as local jobs and economics in the Tacoma/Seattle area, Tacoma takes more of the brunt of it (Seattle has other economic areas it can spread that loss through)
blaktoof wrote: Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
The main power of the TPP is to increase media revenue for business that already exist. It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
Umm..Congress hasn't voted on it yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote: Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
The main power of the TPP is to increase media revenue for business that already exist. It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
blaktoof wrote: Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
The main power of the TPP is to increase media revenue for business that already exist. It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
Umm..Congress hasn't voted on it yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote: Its a trade deal that congress had to vote on without knowing the details...so of course it must be good for the people of America and everyone else, because people only have to vote on secret things they get no information on if its good.
The main power of the TPP is to increase media revenue for business that already exist. It will not create any new jobs in the US, outside of needing to hire people in various positions to enforce the TPP.
the TPP vote is being oversighted by the TPA. So Obama will get a draft from the USTR or whatever, then probably sign it and pass it to congress to vote putting it in their hands. If they sign it it stops there, there is no presidential veto or anything at that point in the process.
Critics say it was negotiated in secret and is biased towards corporations.
Sounds exactly like TTIP. I'm not sure if it's deliberately secret, or whether people just aren't interested. As for being biased toward corporations, you can bet your ass it is. It was practically designed and written by corporations, with the express purpose of circumventing government regulations for profit. Whether ordinary people feel any benefit from that is doubtful. Unless you believe trickle down is a real thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/06 05:44:48
Reasons to produce from USA factories :-
1 Less shipping costs
2 skilled workforce
3 put your reason here
Reasons to produce offshore :-
1 Lower wages
2 less taxes
3 no unions
4 no Obama care
5 closer to emerging markets
You only have to look at offshore manufacturing with trade tariffs.
The pottery industry moved to Malaysia, Stoke on trent home of wedgwood, Royal Doulton, ETC is dead.
Clothing manufacturing moved to Bangladesh. Go to primark and try to find anything made in England.
Tesco and Asda, all the main retail outlets source from abroad.
The computer you're using most likely has a power supply made in China, and the main board and chips made in Malaysia.
Then final assembly in America, if you're lucky.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
What's been really weird and frustrating is how this deal has come to be argued about in terms of the same old free trade argument. Free trade creates jobs and prosperity! No it costs jobs and prosperity!
What almost everyone is missing is that there's actually very little breakdown of trade barriers in TPP, for the simple reason that almost all the barriers have been taken down by previous trade deals. Removing some sugar quotas and some tariffs on manufactured goods is nice from an economic standpoint, but when you measure that stuff against past deals it's really minor. We're already in a free trade world.
The real meat of TPP is in the IP reforms, and in the ability of companies to now directly sue states to enforce treaty provisions. Whether those are good things or not I haven't quite made my mind up, I can see the arguments for them, but also the arguments against.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
It also grants corporations further privileges to bring lawsuits against local communities who seek to prevent things like an oil pipeline, say, on environmental grounds, or having environmental regulations over certain bare-minimum limits.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
loki old fart wrote: I think it will cost jobs. If you can produce items cheaper in third world countries, and import them into the USA without any duties paid.
This is the old argument that efficiency is a job killer. Which is approximately forever old, give or take a millenia.
It doesn't work because it assumes that once a job is lost, it is lost forever. We've had dozens of free trade agreements now, and each one has been heralded with cries of job losses. And while sectors did lose jobs, the unemployment rate didn't rise and stay there. In time those people moved to other sectors of the economy. Having less people in manufacturing led to more people in services. The result is an overall increase in GDP, an overall increase in living standards.
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cincydooley wrote: Isn't voting on gak before they knew what it said sort of what our congress does these days?
That's effectively what happened with the ACA.
No, that isn't what happened with ACA. Some conservative junk media pretended it was, by taking a Pelosi quote way out of context.
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Ensis Ferrae wrote: There may be good aspects of it, especially for the Kiwis and Aussies, but as far as local jobs and economics in the Tacoma/Seattle area, Tacoma takes more of the brunt of it (Seattle has other economic areas it can spread that loss through)
It never ceases to amaze me that so many people will find a way to convince themselves that other countries are the only ones who benefit from trade deals. Especially when Americans come to that conclusion. As a simple guide, typically the biggest, most important player in negotiations gets most of the things he wants, with the rest getting a lesser percentage.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/07 06:21:52
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
blaktoof wrote: so the thing like when Subway was adding a chemical used to make yoga mats in their bread to make it more even, which also causes cancer, as a "food process" and not a "food additive" so they could bypass the FDA.
I've read they also add Dihydrogen Monoxide to it - Dihydrogen Monoxide is used by the nuclear power industry, and is invariably fatal if enough is ingested.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/07 07:31:03
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
blaktoof wrote: so the thing like when Subway was adding a chemical used to make yoga mats in their bread to make it more even, which also causes cancer, as a "food process" and not a "food additive" so they could bypass the FDA.
I've read they also add Dihydrogen Monoxide to it - Dihydrogen Monoxide is used by the nuclear power industry, and is invariably fatal if enough is ingested.
They didn't just bypass the FDA, they tricked the FDA into actually approving it!
Of course it is amazing how Food Babe manages to convince people that just because something is used in the production of one thing it is the same thing as actually eating the thing it is used for (Subway is feeding you yoga mats), and how it suddenly causes cancer (because one of the components it breaks down causes cancer). It causes respiratory issues in workers who are surrounded by it and are breathing it in every single day, which of course is totally related to eating bread.
Food Babe is just another Jenny McCarthy.
Did you know that almost everything you eat has Sodium Chloride added to it? A product that is used in fire extinguishers, used to make PVC, soap, rubber, and is also added to drilling fluids and used for fracking? Your body breaks it down into sodium, which burns when it touches water and produces hydrogen which caused the explosion on the Hindenburg! And Chloride, which is strong enough to erode metal!
I can see that be good for European workers (at last, in west europe).
I mean, no taxes ? No protections ? Who will profit ?
The US workers who work for less money or the european who can't be paid less than 10,80$/hour (in France, at least).
The most of the biggest firms, with the most of the money, are in the US.
And they have less cost to produce.
And there are less rules to protect the consumer in the USA (can vary from state to state, générally).
What about yoga mats and subway ? I eat every week to Subway...
godardc wrote: I can see that be good for European workers (at last, in west europe).
I mean, no taxes ? No protections ? Who will profit ?
There is an overall gain. The first thing to realise is that economies aren't just about exporting stuff. You also import, and as a consumer you gain if a product is now cheaper, because it was made somewhere that is better at making that thing. To put it simply, if I'm better at making bread and you're better at making milk, it makes little sense for me to spend half my day making bread and half my day making milk - instead I make bread and you make milk, and we trade half.
But, as I said earlier, this is all just ending up yet another debate about free trade, and there's hardly any free trade stuff in this deal. Because trade barriers have been almost entirely ripped down already. The real meat of this bill is in the IP stuff, and the powers granted to companies to enforce treaty provisions.
What about yoga mats and subway ? I eat every week to Subway...
There's a woman on the internet who is trusted by a lot of people as a commentator on food science, probably because she goes by the very reputable name Food Babe. She noted that one of the additives in Subway's bread process is also a product used in making yoga mats. So she drew the conclusion that because it would be harmful to eat a yoga mat, it must therefore be harmful to eat Subway bread. People believed her. Her name is Food Babe, how could she say anything that wasn't 100% rock solid science.
Subway yielded to the campaign, because switching from one additive to another is easier than trying to convince activists that they're being stupid.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
loki old fart wrote: I think it will cost jobs. If you can produce items cheaper in third world countries, and import them into the USA without any duties paid.
This is the old argument that efficiency is a job killer. Which is approximately forever old, give or take a millenia.
It doesn't work because it assumes that once a job is lost, it is lost forever. We've had dozens of free trade agreements now, and each one has been heralded with cries of job losses. And while sectors did lose jobs, the unemployment rate didn't rise and stay there. In time those people moved to other sectors of the economy. Having less people in manufacturing led to more people in services. The result is an overall increase in GDP, an overall increase in living standards.
Yes it is an old argument, and just as valid now, as it was then. Some were able to move to lower paid jobs(service industries - Burger anyone?).
A lot retired, thus increasing the burden on the pension services. And a tax increase for everyone else.
Any increase in GDP was the result of bank de-regulation. Any increase in living standards was provided by limitless credit.
The bank de-regulation and limitless credit led to the bank crash of 2008, and austerity for all.(2008 was just an appetizer, the main course is coming soon).
I thought new Zealand was the land of kiwi's not cloud cuckoo's.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: There may be good aspects of it, especially for the Kiwis and Aussies, but as far as local jobs and economics in the Tacoma/Seattle area, Tacoma takes more of the brunt of it (Seattle has other economic areas it can spread that loss through)
It never ceases to amaze me that so many people will find a way to convince themselves that other countries are the only ones who benefit from trade deals. Especially when Americans come to that conclusion. As a simple guide, typically the biggest, most important player in negotiations gets most of the things he wants, with the rest getting a lesser percentage.
And the big corporations are certainly getting the lions share of this deal.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: There may be good aspects of it, especially for the Kiwis and Aussies, but as far as local jobs and economics in the Tacoma/Seattle area, Tacoma takes more of the brunt of it (Seattle has other economic areas it can spread that loss through)
It never ceases to amaze me that so many people will find a way to convince themselves that other countries are the only ones who benefit from trade deals. Especially when Americans come to that conclusion. As a simple guide, typically the biggest, most important player in negotiations gets most of the things he wants, with the rest getting a lesser percentage.
My point there wasn't that the "other guys" will be the only ones to benefit from it. Another poster from NZ posited that it would be a net positive for his/her country. I can neither agree or disagree with that, because I simply don't know the economic/political climate there. All I know is that there are many, many people here in the Tacoma area that are majorly against it.
In a city like Tacoma, the port really is the biggest economic thing, because the other big port in this area, Seattle has other industries (Microsoft, Boeing, etc) that it can spread any loss through so any kind of economic loss or gain won't be felt as much as it will in Tacoma.
blaktoof wrote: so the thing like when Subway was adding a chemical used to make yoga mats in their bread to make it more even, which also causes cancer, as a "food process" and not a "food additive" so they could bypass the FDA.
I've read they also add Dihydrogen Monoxide to it - Dihydrogen Monoxide is used by the nuclear power industry, and is invariably fatal if enough is ingested.
yes water is safe so all chemicals are, you are very very very smart :(
The thermal decomposition of azodicarbonamide results in the evolution of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and ammonia gases, which are trapped in the polymer as bubbles to form a foamed article
azodicarbonamide is the chemical subway was adding to its bread, when they bake it the gases (N2, CO, CO2, NH3) cause all kinds of nice even bubbles in the bread to make it extra fluffy, just like they do in PVC for yoga mats. Unfortunately they also trap CO, and NH3 in the bread. TASTY.
Oh they did find carbon monoxide and ammonia in the bread as well...but hey go suck on an exhaust pipe and then huff some oven cleaner if you think Ammonia gas and CO are just harmless.
Releasing this "trade process" under the current version of the TPP would have allowed Subway to pursue legal actions removing the news articles and shutting down whoever reported it financially.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/07 16:50:29
You know what else produces CO and ammonia? Your body.
Complaining about the yoga mat chemical is as stupid as the anti-vaxxers posting pictures of a syringe with skulls and "it has chemicals in it"
I could go into a long and extensive explanation about why it is stupid based on medical knowledge and science, but then I would be competing against the Internet and everybody knows that when it comes to taking on uninformed misguided rage on the Internet the Internet will always beat you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/07 17:02:47
blaktoof wrote: yes water is safe so all chemicals are, you are very very very smart :(
That's not what I said, of course. This whole uproar over "chemicals", though, is just sort of a good example of scientific illiteracy. The fact that a food additive can be used for other stuff in other industries does not necessarily mean it's unsafe for consumption. Salt is used in textile bleach, but it's also essential to optimum health. Hydrochloric acid is a harsh chemical used to pickle steel, but your stomach is full of it. Oxygen is a corrosive gas used to etch glass, but you'd die without it. I mean, it's just tomfoolery to take half a picture like that; surely you can see that, right? That just because something is a "chemical" means it's unsafe, and just because something is "natural", like, say, cyanide or nightshade or strychnine or polonium doesn't mean it's safe?
Going off on the other side of what you said, though, I agree fully. I know in some states - pretty sure Iowa is one of them - there were a bunch of animal abuses and unsafe, unhealthy practices shown on farms by undercover video. The response was to pass laws allowing for prosecution of people who shot undercover video on said farms. Such a facepalm that day. So, on that angle of it, I totally, totally agree with you; we need less of that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/07 17:14:10
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
