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Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

 d-usa wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
Frazzled wrote:My point stands. Bring it to a court of law and they will pelt you with lima beans for your stupidity, and if you come back they will taunt you a second time.


So you are then absolving people of responsibility for the actions of their minor children? You are absolving people of responsibility of what happens when the weapons kept in their homes are used in the commission of a crime?


Nobody is arguing that.

They are arguing that Murder 1 is never going to stick on a parent of a minor child who used the gun that you left laying around on your night stand to kill another kid.

The parents can, and IMO should, be charged with any number of other laws that may be appropriate though: criminal negligence, manslaughter, endangering a minor, and in states where such laws exist, letting a kid have access to an unsecured weapon as an additional charge to all the other ones.


Because, the way the laws are written, you're looking at a max of 10 years for that, in some states (like Texas) as low as 2 years. Negligent Homicide is the lowest-rated of all homicide charges, less even than Murder-3. It also fails to do what needs to be done, which is to make irresponsible weapon owners responsible for the actions involving their weapons, actions that their irresponsible behavior has enabled.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 Wyrmalla wrote:
K, just following on from when I last entered this thread and seeing it went from there.

Can someone explain to me, without reference the 4th Amendment


That's like asking "without reference to laws against murder, can you explain why it is illegal to murder..."

or the logistics of actually carrying the process (which as I already noted, works fine enough in other parts of the world, admittedly with fewer guns)


The logistics, in addition to just needing more people to actually carry out these inspections, are a problem because the logistics would be against the 4th Amendment.

why having a law that your guns should be safely stored when not in use?


The laws really aren't the problem, the enforcement of them is. That's why most states charge people with having an unsecured gun after the unsecured gun was used by a child.

Sorry I'm not getting my head around this other than people screaming about a police state. When I'm picturing people arguing that storing your guns safely I imagine that you have them sitting casually in umbrella stands or perhaps painted in festive colours as Christmas decorations. ...No, honestly, someone explain to me without having a stick up their ass about hurr durr Amendments and The Man wanting to put their boot down on you?


The vast majority of people will never have a problem with storing their guns safely. There might be an argument that you shouldn't be required to have a mini-safe or trigger lock on your gun while it is setting next to you on the nightstand while you sleep, and very much an argument that of course you shouldn't have to put a trigger lock on a weapon you are physically carrying on your person. But people don't have a problem with storing their weapons in a safe manner. The problem is with the inspection side of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Psienesis wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
 Psienesis wrote:
Frazzled wrote:My point stands. Bring it to a court of law and they will pelt you with lima beans for your stupidity, and if you come back they will taunt you a second time.


So you are then absolving people of responsibility for the actions of their minor children? You are absolving people of responsibility of what happens when the weapons kept in their homes are used in the commission of a crime?


Nobody is arguing that.

They are arguing that Murder 1 is never going to stick on a parent of a minor child who used the gun that you left laying around on your night stand to kill another kid.

The parents can, and IMO should, be charged with any number of other laws that may be appropriate though: criminal negligence, manslaughter, endangering a minor, and in states where such laws exist, letting a kid have access to an unsecured weapon as an additional charge to all the other ones.


Because, the way the laws are written, you're looking at a max of 10 years for that, in some states (like Texas) as low as 2 years. Negligent Homicide is the lowest-rated of all homicide charges, less even than Murder-3. It also fails to do what needs to be done, which is to make irresponsible weapon owners responsible for the actions involving their weapons, actions that their irresponsible behavior has enabled.


Depending on the state. A parent can be charged with Murder if their plan was for their kid to pick up the weapon to kill the other kid because that is what murder is. You don't just change the definition of existing laws just because you don't like the punishment of other laws. If you think that having a kid get access to a weapon and using it to kill someone should result in the parents getting more than X years then you introduce new laws to that effect like California did.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/06 21:54:57


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

Usually, "accessory to" crimes carry the same penalty as the person performing the crime.

Then, yes, if that is what it takes, then let us do that. If you are negligent in the storage of your weapons, you are as responsible for crimes committed with them as if you had committed those same crimes yourself.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/06 22:05:24


It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





If your not using guns, lock them up in a valid gun safe, strong room or such safe location. Is anything complex about this?


They are locked up in a safe location. It's called my house. Go away. You want to inspect the facilities? Look at my house. Are there guns lying around outside? No? Good, you've inspected, buzz off.

Anyone breaking into your house will have absolutely no, that is, zero difficulty in taking that shiny safe you have bolted down in your garage and tearing it the heck out with a length of chain and the pickup they were loading your stuff into anyway and cutting it open with an O/A torch or grinder later. The "Solutions" proposed are ridiculous, change nothing, and serve only to soothe the emotions of a small group of people....well, and give people trying to follow the rules yet another hole to step into for their trouble.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






The Dog-house

 SOFDC wrote:
If your not using guns, lock them up in a valid gun safe, strong room or such safe location. Is anything complex about this?


They are locked up in a safe location. It's called my house. Go away. You want to inspect the facilities? Look at my house. Are there guns lying around outside? No? Good, you've inspected, buzz off.

Anyone breaking into your house will have absolutely no, that is, zero difficulty in taking that shiny safe you have bolted down in your garage and tearing it the heck out with a length of chain and the pickup they were loading your stuff into anyway and cutting it open with an O/A torch or grinder later. The "Solutions" proposed are ridiculous, change nothing, and serve only to soothe the emotions of a small group of people....well, and give people trying to follow the rules yet another hole to step into for their trouble.


This is a good point

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
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koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
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Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

 SOFDC wrote:
If your not using guns, lock them up in a valid gun safe, strong room or such safe location. Is anything complex about this?


They are locked up in a safe location. It's called my house. Go away. You want to inspect the facilities? Look at my house. Are there guns lying around outside? No? Good, you've inspected, buzz off.

Anyone breaking into your house will have absolutely no, that is, zero difficulty in taking that shiny safe you have bolted down in your garage and tearing it the heck out with a length of chain and the pickup they were loading your stuff into anyway and cutting it open with an O/A torch or grinder later. The "Solutions" proposed are ridiculous, change nothing, and serve only to soothe the emotions of a small group of people....well, and give people trying to follow the rules yet another hole to step into for their trouble.


Good thing the discussion is not about "people stealing your gun-safe in an industrial level hit-and-run on your garage after painstakingly casing your home and determining that this is what they would need to do to steal that safe" and instead it is about "it's sensible not to leave unsecured guns laying around your place where kids and others can get to them".

I'm pretty pro-gun, trust me when I say that I am arguing on the side of a lot of users here who I usually oppose on almost everything else, and I don't see anything wrong with promoting safe gun storage (which the vast majority of gun owners already are doing) and punishing people when their negligently stored weapons are used by children in a crime.
   
Made in us
Sniping Reverend Moira





Cincinnati, Ohio

 Kanluwen wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:


So are you saying there should be a limit to the number of firearms and ammunition one can own?

Why?

I'm absolutely saying that. And why?

How many firearms does anyone, realistically, need? How much ammunition does anyone, realistically, need in their home?

A pistol and a shotgun or rifle per adult in the house, and enough ammunition to reasonably defend ones' home from an intruder or for the purposes of hunting during a season.



See, this comment really expresses your ignorance on the topic.

I have 5 shotguns.

I have a 30" barrel Browning Citori for skeet shooting.

I have a 32" Beretta that I use for trap and sporting clays.

I have an Ithica Deerslayer for deer Hunting in Ohio.

I have a Mossberg 500 for HD

And I have an old Remington 870 pump for duck hunting.

Just like a Phillips and flat head screw driver, there are more than enough reasons to have more than one tool.

 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Good thing the discussion is not about "people stealing your gun-safe in an industrial level hit-and-run on your garage after painstakingly casing your home and determining that this is what they would need to do to steal that safe" and instead it is about "it's sensible not to leave unsecured guns laying around your place where kids and others can get to them".


Good thing the "There awta be a LAW!" solutions presented, you know, the ones that would apply to EVERYONE in all situations and scenarios, had more than two seconds thought put into them and accounted for the fact not everyone has:

Kids
Housemates
Or a compulsion to leave their doors and windows unlocked.

...Wait....

EDIT: To respond to the other point, should you leave a weapon (or any tool at all) where a third party can get at them without your knowledge? Can't say it's a good idea. I wouldn't want kids having access to my chemicals, welding materials, or power tools either. However, I find it interesting that no one is up in arms about the can of gasoline in the garage not being securely locked into place at all times or face legal penalties. I'm pretty sure arson will kill people at least as dead as bullets. Probably MORE people to boot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/06 22:33:53


 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 SOFDC wrote:
Good thing the discussion is not about "people stealing your gun-safe in an industrial level hit-and-run on your garage after painstakingly casing your home and determining that this is what they would need to do to steal that safe" and instead it is about "it's sensible not to leave unsecured guns laying around your place where kids and others can get to them".


Good thing the "There awta be a LAW!" solutions presented, you know, the ones that would apply to EVERYONE in all situations and scenarios, had more than two seconds thought put into them and accounted for the fact not everyone has:

Kids
Housemates
Or a compulsion to leave their doors and windows unlocked.

...Wait....

EDIT: To respond to the other point, should you leave a weapon (or any tool at all) where a third party can get at them without your knowledge? Can't say it's a good idea. I wouldn't want kids having access to my chemicals, welding materials, or power tools either. However, I find it interesting that no one is up in arms about the can of gasoline in the garage not being securely locked into place at all times or face legal penalties. I'm pretty sure arson will kill people at least as dead as bullets. Probably MORE people to boot.


It's hilarious that you put forth locking windows as a barrier to people getting your guns whereas apparently a solid safe bolted onto a wall is not.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






It's hilarious that you put forth locking windows as a barrier to people getting your guns whereas apparently a solid safe bolted onto a wall is not.


Probably because they'll provide about the same amount of protection as a locked window or doorknob. They keep honest people honest and that's really about it. No safe the average human being can afford or install is going to actually STOP someone who wants your stuff from getting it. Do I own a safe? Sure, its a 1/2 inch thick fridge sized monster I got for free. I have no illusions that it will actually prevent anyone with an ounce of determination from getting into it. Frankly, most people keep their security containers in the very same structures as they keep the tools that could be immediately used to OPEN said container.

All it buys you is a few minutes and some noise someone MIGHT hear and call the police over. Kinda like the sound of a window shattering.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/06 22:42:09


 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

Yes, because most burglars take heavy machinery with them.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Yes, because most burglars take heavy machinery with them.


Yea, I'm sure that the garage doesn't have any drills, grinders, or in some cases torches. I'm also sure they don't have anything of the kind in their vehicle either. Nope. Totally impossible. Also unthinkable that they'll rip the safe out of the wall or garage with a crowbar or chain+truck (In the case of most humans who have to work for a living, it's not going to be heavy enough to require the latter, by the way.) and take it to a remote location to be pried open at leisure.

I hate to say it, but safes are paper tigers. Sometimes they weigh a few hundred pounds, but they have ratings "Resist <x> MINUTES" for a reason.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/06 22:48:32


 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 SOFDC wrote:
Yes, because most burglars take heavy machinery with them.


Yea, I'm sure that the garage doesn't have any drills, grinders, or in some cases torches. I'm also sure they don't have anything of the kind in their vehicle either. Nope. Totally impossible.

I hate to say it, but safes are paper tigers. Sometimes they weigh a few hundred pounds, but they have ratings "Resist <x> MINUTES" for a reason.


I'm not saying it's not possible. It's possible that they come with a brick of C4, it's just very unlikely. Most people stealing stuff aren't really going to want to attract attention to themselves are they? Especially if they don't know if anyone is home.

And I think you overestimate the average american's garage. Many people have drills, but often they are pretty crappy, and probably don't have any bits made for metal. Try drilling through even eight inch steel with a wood drill, you aren't getting anywhere. And grinders and torches are sort of specialty items, people don't just have them normally. Besides, that would have to be a pretty good torch to cut through steel of any thickness. Unless you are talking about cutting torches, which are even less likely for people to have.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 cincydooley wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 cincydooley wrote:


So are you saying there should be a limit to the number of firearms and ammunition one can own?

Why?

I'm absolutely saying that. And why?

How many firearms does anyone, realistically, need? How much ammunition does anyone, realistically, need in their home?

A pistol and a shotgun or rifle per adult in the house, and enough ammunition to reasonably defend ones' home from an intruder or for the purposes of hunting during a season.



See, this comment really expresses your ignorance on the topic.

I have 5 shotguns.

I have a 30" barrel Browning Citori for skeet shooting.

I have a 32" Beretta that I use for trap and sporting clays.

I have an Ithica Deerslayer for deer Hunting in Ohio.

I have a Mossberg 500 for HD

And I have an old Remington 870 pump for duck hunting.

Just like a Phillips and flat head screw driver, there are more than enough reasons to have more than one tool.
Indeed, different weapons have different purposes.

More to the point, having more weapons doesn't make you any more dangerous. A person can only wield one weapon at a time, it's not like having a dozen guns makes you able to kill 12x as many people as having 1 gun, any more than having 12 screwdrivers makes you able to assemble a piece of furniture 12x faster than having 1 screwdriver.

Also, when it comes to ammunition, limits are rather hard to justify looking at how ammunition is really used.

In a single day at a range, it's not impossible to go through several hundred rounds of ammunition. For someone serious into shooting sports, going through 2000 rounds a month isn't at all impossible, that's about ~15-20 magazines worth or shooting once a week for an afternoon or something like that. Even for casual shooters, having several hundred or a couple of thousand rounds of ammunition in the home is not at all out of the ordinary. Someone checking out at a place like Cabelas with several hundred rounds of ammunition isn't going to make anyone blink, it looks like a huge amount of ammunition when thrown into a headline, but that's a small enough quantity that you can put it in a plastic grocery bag and probably still fit some more stuff in.

On the opposite side, for some sort of "active shooter", they're probably not carrying gobs of ammunition, the total expended round count at most "mass shootings" is usually in the double digits. if you look at the 2012 Aurora Theater shooting, a grand total of 76 rounds of ammunition were expended in that attack. Even in the Virginia Tech massacre, IIRC the highest-body-count mass shooting in the US, had less than 200 rounds expended from what I recall. It would not seem that ammunition limits would particularly matter much in such instances.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





I'm not saying it's not possible.


No, what you are saying it's not even likely, which is...laughable.

but often they are pretty crappy


So are the "security containers" that are typically sold. Don't just take my word for it, actually Go to a sporting goods place and examine the stuff they have for sale. It's well and truly pathetic, these containers would not be hard to open up by anyone who had two braincells to clang together.

   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 SOFDC wrote:
I'm not saying it's not possible.


No, what you are saying it's not even likely, which is...laughable.



It's laughable that I think burglars don't generally carry around heavy power tools?
but often they are pretty crappy


So are the "security containers" that are typically sold. Don't just take my word for it, actually Go to a sporting goods place and examine the stuff they have for sale. It's well and truly pathetic, these containers would not be hard to open up by anyone who had two braincells to clang together.



That's more of a problem with what you are buying then, not safes themselves not working. At that point you buy a better container.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 SOFDC wrote:

Anyone breaking into your house will have absolutely no, that is, zero difficulty in taking that shiny safe you have bolted down in your garage and tearing it the heck out with a length of chain and the pickup they were loading your stuff into anyway and cutting it open with an O/A torch or grinder later.


Hey, I was that kid too!

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






It's laughable that I think burglars don't generally carry around heavy power tools?


No, it's laughable that you think burglars intent on actually robbing a place carry NO tools, or that the tools required for the job ARE hard to obtain, cumbersome, or uncommon.


That's more of a problem with what you are buying then, not safes themselves not working. At that point you buy a better container.


Actually read my posts please. I am pointedly NOT buying them. I have one an order of magnitude more durable than what you are going to find off the rack in most places. However, this is a much better point than your previous.

Fact remains, this is what is sold, and what most people are going to buy. It does beg the question "If this is a person who is going to have to move, or install in an apartment, can much better actually BE done?"

So, even if I were to entertain the idea that you SHOULD absolutely have a safe, how heavy MUST it be? How much EXPENSE should be mandated for someone to own a certain thing (Another point NOT in favor of the "MANDATE SAFES!" camp)? These aren't free, and the price can ramp up rapidly depending. How much weight? Telling someone they can't live in apartment because the safe the law requires weighs more than an apartment can safely support (by virtue of physics being a thing) would be ridiculous.

   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Glasgow, Scotland

Heh, aye, regarding the containers not being up the job, its a joke to say "oh the ones that the store sells are cheap pieces of crap, so that means I shouldn't be using anything at all". IIRC the law in my country has you store your guns separately from the ammunition too, which sort of beats the point of a burglar using the gun against you. ...Or are we working under the assumption that said person who first break into one container and then go searching for the other one instead of just bringing a gun with them themselves?

...Though this discussion is about a preteen having access to a gun, so all this talk about power tools is perhaps a bit moot.

Point stands though, and I'm not going to beat a dead horse about it, if you're using your guns as tasteful chandelier ornaments then you're being more than a little irresponsible. =P

In regards to inspections. As has been said, if you're arguing against those, besides just regarding the logistics, then how are you fine with car MOTs (or whatever they're called in the US)? Is it people just getting hung up on guns? Sorry, again can someone explain the logic outside of citing the 4th amendment (which as has been mentioned would be laughed out of a court if you pulled that line for other subjects) and yammering about a police state how it would be an issue? Is it that people would be coming into your home? I'm not really speaking for the practicality or about realistic such a law would be, rather I'm hearing a lot of rather defensive attitudes towards the state having any impact on people's lives beyond some guy sitting on his porch with a shotgun pointed at the taxmen standing a mile away outside his barbed wire fence....



Edit:

Huh, I looked at the UK gun storage law. Beyond the gun having to fit in the safe and it having to be fixed I don't see anything regarding weight. Guess they assume that the thing should be secure enough not to be broken into easily, so the guy inspecting the thing judges it by eye. All it advises is that a timber beam of x size can support a weight of x. Overall the document seems more like its advising you on what you should do rather than setting things in stone (again I suppose anyone inspecting the safe would be the one to judge if it were secure or not). There's probably a better file out there on this subject though than the one I just pulled off the government's site. =P

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/06 23:39:25


 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Its because with Cars and Planes you waive those rights specifically in those instances. But as guns(technically all weaponry) are a constitutional right you do not waive those rights.

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Glasgow, Scotland

If cars were invented at the time of the Constitution then would people be whinging about those in the same manner as they do when discussing the same laws which effect those applying to guns then?
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Point stands though, and I'm not going to beat a dead horse about it, if you're using your guns as tasteful chandelier ornaments then you're being more than a little irresponsible.


If you have kids, sure. If you live alone, have no guests, then it becomes little more than terrible choice in decoration.

In regards to inspections. As has been said, if you're arguing against those, besides just regarding the logistics, then how are you fine with car MOTs (or whatever they're called in the US)? Is it people just getting hung up on guns? Sorry, again can someone explain the logic outside of citing the 4th amendment


See my initial post. If I wanted to be less flippant (but still accurate) I have to have my vehicle periodically inspected....to take it on the road. I don't have to take it on the road. It can sit and rust for the next 20 years just fine.

Now why do we inspect cars? To make sure the stupid thing isn't going to fly apart or otherwise not function properly on the road. This doesn't really apply to a firearm. A private firearm (I surely hope) not something in constant, long term, use in a public setting. A direct equivalent would be asking for my pistol, looking at it, going "HURP DURP its got oil and the right bullets here you go lolz" and charging me 60 bucks for my trouble, but only for guns i take into a public settings. (BTW, if your firearm is unservicable, someone is going to catch it during your concealed carry or hunting license courses, whichever is applicable.)

What is being advocated is something else. It is "Because you own X let me come into your house and check things out whenever I want." Which should be shouted down for being arbitrary, let alone anything else.
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Did this argument just come to we have parenting issues?


There's absolutely a parenting aspect to this.

However, having access to a weapon of the lethality of a shotgun is somewhat different than getting a baseball bat or steak knife and trying to murder her. If nothing else, the reports I've read indicate that he shot her from inside the house. The willingness to attack her was amplified by an available weapon that allowed him to do so at a distance.

And yes, the human body is simultaneously a remarkably resilient structure (see: people getting shot a dozen times and surviving) and incredibly fragile (see: people dying after falling up a set of 2 stairs). That said, I sincerely hope I don't have to argue with anyone that a shotgun is a tool capable of delivering immense trauma at a greater range in a shorter period of time than most household blades or bludgeons (not that I would want to be stabbed or bludgeoned, but I'd probably take that risk over being shotgunned if I had to choose).

Would a quarter million gun safes and trigger locks prevent all tragedies everywhere ever? No. But accidents happen. A lot of them. Suicides happen. Mass shootings happen.

And until something changes in the US, some of that blood spilled is the price paid. Whether it's a change in policy or technology or culture or whatever. Eliminating guns wouldn't eliminate murders, nor am I saying that should be a goal (reasonable or otherwise), but the availability of guns heightens the success of suicide attempts using them (the barriers to success don't actually have to be all that high to save lives), and while we certainly have heard of mass stabbings, I dare say we don't have them on a weekly basis (see original statements about 'picking my poison' while we're at it).

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

But guns make it quicker and easier to kill people when a person has decided that's how it is going to be (or an accident occurs, or they decide they're tired of being turned down for dates, whatever).

Might as well embrace the cynicism. Nothing changed after Sandy Hook, nothing will change now.

Makayla Dyer's death is a small part of the price of Freedom! *insert crying Eagle in front of the Stars and Stripes here*

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/06 23:44:53


 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

 SOFDC wrote:

It's laughable that I think burglars don't generally carry around heavy power tools?


No, it's laughable that you think burglars intent on actually robbing a place carry NO tools, or that the tools required for the job ARE hard to obtain, cumbersome, or uncommon.
Of course they carry tools. I never said they carried no tools. I just doubted them having power tools good enough to get through decent steel, especially if they want to remain undetected. Crowbars, screwdrivers, hammers make sense. That will open most things short of a safe, lock-boxes, cabinets, ect. And it will do so cheaply (which is important as people who steal generally don't have much disposable income), quietly, and with a minimum of size and weight.

And metal cutting tools are not cheap. Nor are they particularly common. They are a specialty item, most people don't have them. Most people have no need of them. Even then, you have to think about them knowing how to use them. Same for grinders. Drills (as I said before) are more common, but bits made for metal, especially thick metal, are also relatively uncommon. And if the safe is any good, a drill isn't going to do much even if you drill all the way through. You'd get it open eventually, but the amount of time it would take is not something a burglar is going to take.



That's more of a problem with what you are buying then, not safes themselves not working. At that point you buy a better container.


Actually read my posts please. I am pointedly NOT buying them. I have one an order of magnitude more durable than what you are going to find off the rack in most places. However, this is a much better point than your previous.

Fact remains, this is what is sold, and what most people are going to buy. It does beg the question "If this is a person who is going to have to move, or install in an apartment, can much better actually BE done?"

So, even if I were to entertain the idea that you SHOULD absolutely have a safe, how heavy MUST it be? How much EXPENSE should be mandated for someone to own a certain thing (Another point NOT in favor of the "MANDATE SAFES!" camp)? These aren't free, and the price can ramp up rapidly depending. How much weight? Telling someone they can't live in apartment because the safe the law requires weighs more than an apartment can safely support (by virtue of physics being a thing) would be ridiculous.

You seem to have misunderstood what I am saying. I'm saying that if someone (I used the word you because that's how I talk, addressing the person I talk to) is buying a crappy safe, and find your stuff stolen, it's not that safes don't work, it's that you bought a crappy safe. It's not a specific "you did this".

And nowhere have I argued about mandating safes. I have no opinion on that matter (not owning guns myself, I don't really know). I am just disagreeing with the notion that having a safe is useless.

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 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
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@SOFDC

You misunderstand what I'm advocating here. Its not just the inspection of the gun itself. I'm also saying that they should be stored appropriately. In other words it would be to 1) make sure the gun is being stored when not in use and 2) making sure that its being stored securely. Naturally someone could leave their guns laying about all day in neat little piles and then stick them in the safe when the inspector calls, but the same could be said of people conning the MOT system. So its not a case of checking that a gun shoots straight, rather just that some guy without a hammer couldn't come along, see a gun sitting in a flower pot and then go off on their merry way with it.

...Sorry if my description of casual gun storage is perhaps a bit condescending. In part its perhaps down to that its sort of against the law here not to have your gun just sitting out so that anyone could pick it up.
   
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On moon miranda.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
If cars were invented at the time of the Constitution then would people be whinging about those in the same manner as they do when discussing the same laws which effect those applying to guns then?
When we're talking about things related to cars, we have to keep something in mind. You accept a lot of things and waive some rights in exchange for a privilege, that of being able to operate a motor vehicle in a public road.

If you are operating a motor vehicle on something other than a public road, say, one's own property or a private racetrack, that's an entirely different ball game. You can drive a car with no headlights and broken blinkers, with an automatic weapon concealed in the front seat and going around a racetrack at 150mph and spewing all sorts of pollutoin into the air, and it's not something the police have any right to do anything about.

It's the use and operation of that motor vehicle on public roads that gives the state the right to do certain things.

When we're talking about private firearms ownership, there's no use of a collective public good that gives the state a reason to be able to do certain things.

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Glasgow, Scotland

@Vaktathi

And then that beat up junker with no seat belts crashes and kills a bunch of people on private property and people are outraged that some idiots didn't follow the common sense regulations that are followed everywhere else. The same then goes for guns. In public you don't just go to Taco Bell and leave your gun out on the table as you go to the toilet, why should you be doing that at home? Sure its your "right" at present to do whatever the hell you like in your home, but if you're leaving pistols laying about at random at a kid's birthday party at your house and some kid gets shot then I'm not sure that argument would really pass...

Hmn, OT you are making me feel the need to put the winky face emoticon at the end of everything I type here too much. ¬¬
   
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Seattle

So... how many times does this have to happen before something changes?

http://www.cantonrep.com/article/20151005/NEWS/151009705

CantonRep wrote: A 12-year-old South Carolina boy was fatally shot Friday in what authorities say was an accident during a target-shooting outing.
The victim was identified as Joseph Baily of More, South Carolina. The shooting occurred in the 8400 block of Bay Road in Carroll County’s Lee Township, southeast of Carrollton.
“It was an accident,” county Sheriff Dale Williams said Monday. “It (shooter) was a juvenile. It was a brother. His brother was 11 years old.”
Sheriff deputies were notified of the incident at 5:14 p.m. Friday.
The boy was pronounced dead at the scene by the Carroll County coroner. The Stark County coroner’s staff will conduct the autopsy.
“They were actually target shooting,” Carroll County Coroner Mandal Haas said. “They were visiting a friend they knew here in Ohio. This was real ammunition. It was a head wound.”
The weapon was a handgun.
“The 11-year-old picked up a weapon off of a picnic table,” Sheriff Williams said. “He accidentally shot it.”
While the shooting was accidental, Carroll County authorities, however, could file criminal charges. Those charges could be filed against who ever failed to secure the weapon.
“Everything will be finalized and the results will be sent to the (county) prosecutor,” Williams said

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
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Crowbars, screwdrivers, hammers make sense.


They will also open pretty much any safe you buy in a store. Hence my point. Also hence my question of "How much better can realistically be expected?" A lot of people for various reasons CAN'T afford or can't install the safes we might like to dream about having.

especially if they want to remain undetected.


After breaking in doors/windows, which is the only time a safe might ever possibly have a use. It has become clear.

And metal cutting tools are not cheap.


...You are aware that you can go like, right now and buy an O/A torch that will happily chew through inch thick+ steel plate for 60 bucks? http://www.harborfreight.com/18-inch-oxygen-acetylene-cutting-torch-96290.html That was after a whole two minutes searching in google, not looking used, not asking my mythical friend bob if I can borrow his torch for a day, etc. That's two fill ups for the car, it's not a big deal anymore.

Even then, you have to think about them knowing how to use them.


That's like saying hackers aren't a problem because you have to know how to use a computer. It takes less than 15 minutes to learn how to use the torch listed above.

You misunderstand what I'm advocating here.


No. I did not. I understood perfectly what you asked (Which was my reply about function check. This is the direct equivalent of our car inspections.) and I also understood perfectly what you MEANT (Which was the last line of my post that probably made the whole idea sound capricious and arbitary, which it is.) Thing is you are not understanding is that over here at least, it really doesn't matter what you are talking about, if you tell a person you are going to come into their house at any time they please to do -ANYTHING- you better be able to tell them something pretty compelling as to what it's going to accomplish, and in this case? Generally nothing of value is going to be gained versus the state of things we have now.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/07 00:08:36


 
   
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On moon miranda.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
@Vaktathi

And then that beat up junker with no seat belts crashes and kills a bunch of people on private property and people are outraged that some idiots didn't follow the common sense regulations that are followed everywhere else.
Then it's a liability issue for the owner, possibly even criminal negligence or involuntary manslaughter, but it's not something the State has the ability to ticket them for or actively regulate the way they would on public streets.

The same then goes for guns. In public you don't just go to Taco Bell and leave your gun out on the table as you go to the toilet, why should you be doing that at home?
Because it's your home and you're allowed to do whatever you want therein as long as it is not actively harmful to someone else.

Sure its your "right" at present to do whatever the hell you like in your home, but if you're leaving pistols laying about at random at a kid's birthday party at your house and some kid gets shot then I'm not sure that argument would really pass...
That's a different case with special circumstances would in most cases be covered under something like "criminal negligence" or the like in most circumstances where the owner should have known that leaving the firearm about in the manner that they did was potentially dangerous. However, if we're talking something like a single adult with no kids and no expectations of anyone being over, in their own apartment, that's not something the state really has a case for doing anything about.


Hmn, OT you are making me feel the need to put the winky face emoticon at the end of everything I type here too much. ¬¬
I commonly use such just to done down the edginess of many discussions


 Psienesis wrote:
So... how many times does this have to happen before something changes?

http://www.cantonrep.com/article/20151005/NEWS/151009705

CantonRep wrote: A 12-year-old South Carolina boy was fatally shot Friday in what authorities say was an accident during a target-shooting outing.
The victim was identified as Joseph Baily of More, South Carolina. The shooting occurred in the 8400 block of Bay Road in Carroll County’s Lee Township, southeast of Carrollton.
“It was an accident,” county Sheriff Dale Williams said Monday. “It (shooter) was a juvenile. It was a brother. His brother was 11 years old.”
Sheriff deputies were notified of the incident at 5:14 p.m. Friday.
The boy was pronounced dead at the scene by the Carroll County coroner. The Stark County coroner’s staff will conduct the autopsy.
“They were actually target shooting,” Carroll County Coroner Mandal Haas said. “They were visiting a friend they knew here in Ohio. This was real ammunition. It was a head wound.”
The weapon was a handgun.
“The 11-year-old picked up a weapon off of a picnic table,” Sheriff Williams said. “He accidentally shot it.”
While the shooting was accidental, Carroll County authorities, however, could file criminal charges. Those charges could be filed against who ever failed to secure the weapon.
“Everything will be finalized and the results will be sent to the (county) prosecutor,” Williams said
What would you legislate to change something like this? They were out actively using a firearm in a sporting capacity, in this case there is already legislation in place to cover some sort of criminal negligence if they left an unloaded weapon where a minor could access it unintentionally.

What sort of "change" would one be looking for?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/07 00:12:22


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
 
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