Yet another reason for trigger-locks and gun safety

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**Psienesis**

http://wkrn.com/2015/10/04/8-year-old-girl-dies-in-east-tenn-shooting-police-arrest-11-yr-old-suspect/

http://wkrn.com/2015/10/04/8-year-old-girl-dies-in-east-tenn-shooting-police-arrest-11-yr-old-suspect/ wrote:
WHITE PINE, Tenn. (WATE) – A shooting Sunday morning in White Pine left an 8-year-old girl dead and an 11-year-old boy arrested on first-degree murder charges.

Jefferson County Sheriff G.W “Bud” McCoig said the boy shot the girl in the chest with a 12-gauge shotgun from inside his home along Robin Road. Sheriff McCoig added that the gun belonged to the boy’s father. The boy’s name is not being released at this time.
According to her mother, Latasha Dyer, McKayla was found lying on the ground with a gunshot wound to her chest. She was taken to Morristown-Hamblen hospital, where she later died.

“She was a precious little girl, she was a mommy’s girl, no matter how bad of a mood you were in she could always make you smile,” Dyer said.

She added that her daughter was outside playing when her next door neighbor, an 11-year-old boy, asked to see her puppy. She said her daughter told the boy “no,” and shortly after the, 11-year-old boy shot her. The shooting wasn’t the first time their family had problems with the boy, according to Dyer.

“When we first moved to White Pine, the little boy was bullying McKayla,” she said.

“He was making fun of her, calling her names just being mean to her. I had to go the principal about him and he quit for a while and then all of a sudden yesterday he shot her.”

WATE reached out to the boy’s family for comment, but received no answer. Dyer said she’s heartbroken and their entire family is devastated.

“I want her back in my arms, this is not fair, hold and kiss you’re babies every night because you’re never promised the next day with them,” said Dyer.

“I hope the little boy learned his lesson because he took my baby’s life and I can’t get her back.”

Both children were White Pine Elementary students, according to Sheriff McCoig.

I mean... wtf? Seriously. WTF?

You can teach your kids gun safety, you can threaten them with all kinds of things if you ever catch them playing with your guns, but all of that goes out the window when your kid has access to your firearms (gun cabinet/case/locker or not) and kills some neighbor over some childish BS. WTF... just... WTF?!?

**hotsauceman1**

I sure as hell hope the family puts the boys parents on the street for this.
The Father and/or Mother should be charged with Criminal Negligence.

**daedalus**

Well, that's fething horrible. What maladjusted monster of a child would do that anyway? I can't really think of a time I deliberately hurt another living thing until I was, maybe, 14 or 15.

**Ouze**

Oh, this thread is going places.

Just not good places.

**daedalus**

Ouze wrote:
Oh, this thread is going places.

Just not good places.

Hey man, dakka has taught me that kids know exactly what they're doing and can understand the consequences of their actions as well as adults, if not better. Also that we should not waste time before turning a tragedy into political points.

What about a mandatory automatically resetting bear trap as part of each trigger lock?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This place is a misfortune of opinion.

**cincydooley**

Trigger locks come with basically every firearm today.

The only way to enforce using them is to actually punish the adults, as HSM said, in instances like these, for negligent homicide.

Based on the kid it sounds like they were gakky parents to begin with.

**Avatar 720**

Ouze wrote:
Oh, this thread is going places.

Just not good places.

So long as it stays reasonably around 'trigger locks' and 'sealed gun storage' territory it should manage to keep its head above water. I think I'd be right in saying that most people--pro-gun or no-gun--are more or less agreed on the need to safely secure guns, even if they disagree on ownership.

This is definitely a case where a simple secured gun cabinet would've prevented anything from happening. If a kid can access a firearm, then it's not being stored properly.

**d-usa**

Short of legally requiring that every weapon in your house is secured at all times unless you are actively using it, which would be impossible to enforce, there really isn't much else you can do IMO.

You could pass more laws with regards to penalties that make the owner of the weapon also liable for the crimes committed with them (similar to social hosting kind of laws), but I would imagine that current laws regarding negligence and the like may already cover situations like that depending on the state where it happens.

My last two guns all came with the loop-lock thing that goes through the gun (which is a bigger pain in the rear to use than a trigger lock), but they were included in the box. (Is it California that requires them or something like that which makes it just easier to include in all the boxes instead of only shipping certain boxes to certain states?) Maybe you can expand the laws and make it a requirement that all gun sales include a gun lock (but what about second hand sales, would the store be required to include them?), but I don't know that it would make a difference. I know our county sheriff and our local PD both give away free gun-locks to anyone that wants one.

In the end you can make trigger locks as abundant as you want them (included with weapons, free at law enforcement agencies, complimentary gun-lock every January 1st to every house in the country) but they are useless unless people use them.

**daedalus**

Should make them free on the 4th of July. I'm sure that would get enough people riled up to be worth the cost.

**Dreadclaw69**

If children do not have the respect for firearms that they deserve then firearms should not be left unsecured. This is a pointless loss of life because the parents of the boy did not see able to impart the wisdom to him that pointing a firearm at someone (when not in danger of being harmed) is not acceptable.

Ouze wrote:
Oh, this thread is going places.

Just not good places.

That is my fear also. I hope that this thread remains civil.

d-usa wrote:
Short of legally requiring that every weapon in your house is secured at all times unless you are actively using it, which would be impossible to enforce, there really isn't much else you can do IMO.

You could pass more laws with regards to penalties that make the owner of the weapon also liable for the crimes committed with them (similar to social hosting kind of laws), but I would imagine that current laws regarding negligence and the like may already cover situations like that depending on the state where it happens.

My last two guns all came with the loop-lock thing that goes through the gun (which is a bigger pain in the rear to use than a trigger lock), but they were included in the box. (Is it California that requires them or something like that which makes it just easier to include in all the boxes instead of only shipping certain boxes to certain states?) Maybe you can expand the laws and make it a requirement that all gun sales include a gun lock (but what about second hand sales, would the store be required to include them?), but I don't know that it would make a difference. I know our county sheriff and our local PD both give away free gun-locks to anyone that wants one.

In the end you can make trigger locks as abundant as you want them (included with weapons, free at law enforcement agencies, complimentary gun-lock every January 1st to every house in the country) but they are useless unless people use them.

There are also organizations that provide gun locks free of charge, like the National Shooting Sport Foundation;
http://www.nssf.org/safety/gunlocks/
http://projectchildsafe.org/

**DarkLink**

I think most gun owners, while agreeing that properly storing firearms is important, would place some emphasis on raising your kid so they don't go and murder some other kid. 11 year olds aren't bumbling toddlers anymore, and there's always a chance they'll find their way into a locked and secured cabinet if they're determined to do so. You can't rely purely on physical security systems. It's kind of like the manual safety on a firearm; your trigger finger is your safety, not the mechanical safety. The mechanical safety is just a backup. Safe handling is far more important.

**ChrisRR**

I have one gun that isn't locked up but my kids can NOT get access to it and it isn't loaded but I can load it very quickly if need be everything else is locked up in the safe. Leaving a loaded 12 gauge out is just asking for trouble and having a little F&c& for a kid is just fuel to the fire!

**NuggzTheNinja**

Sad story. Kid sounds like a monster...hopefully he's tried as an adult.

**hotsauceman1**

I think in most states its 15 minimum for being Tried as an adult

**Breotan**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
I sure as hell hope the family puts the boys parents on the street for this.
The Father and/or Mother should be charged with Criminal Negligence.

That should be the least of what they are charged with.

**Nostromodamus**

Horrific tragedy.

Gun safety and safe storage should be of utmost importance to anyone, regardless of their stance on firearm ownership.

**Chongara**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Sad story. Kid sounds like a monster...hopefully he's tried as an adult.

There are no such things as monsters, only people. In this case a child. This is a tragedy but society won't get anything out of looking for more blood than has already been spilled. We're not going to deter some rash of potential 11-year old shooters by trying this kid as an adult, or keep anyone safer than we would with rehabilitation. The only thing you're calling for is even more human suffering.

**Breotan**

Chongara wrote:
The only thing you're calling for is even more human suffering.

I'm actually okay with that in this instance.

**Chongara**

Breotan wrote:
Chongara wrote:
The only thing you're calling for is even more human suffering.

I'm actually okay with that in this instance.

That's awful.

**cincydooley**

Gun locks are like condoms. You can give em out but ya can't make people use em.

@d-USA - I've bought all of mine in ohio or Kentucky and they've all come with trigger locks. Shotguns, handguns, and rifles alike.

**Tactical_Spam**

Problem: Gun is not locked in a secured place; Boy is allowed to Bully

Guns dont kill people, People kill people with guns

**d-usa**

cincydooley wrote:

@d-USA - I've bought all of mine in ohio or Kentucky and they've all come with trigger locks. Shotguns, handguns, and rifles alike.

Mine were all Oklahoma purchased.

I just thought that there was a particular state that required them (for stuff like that California just always comes to mind) and that is why they were included in all of them to make logistics easier.

**daedalus**

Breotan wrote:
Chongara wrote:
The only thing you're calling for is even more human suffering.

I'm actually okay with that in this instance.

Humanity never changes.

**Tactical_Spam**

daedalus wrote:
Breotan wrote:
Chongara wrote:
The only thing you're calling for is even more human suffering.

I'm actually okay with that in this instance.

Humanity never changes.

Did we think it did?

**daedalus**

I keep hoping I'll wake up in a couple hundred years and it will.

**SagesStone**

Was the ammo kept with it or something? Maybe keep them apart as well. :/

Clearly something needed to be done about the kid before this, but it could have went down the "precious little snowflake can do no wrong it's just a phase" crap.

**blaktoof**

Chongara wrote:
Breotan wrote:
Chongara wrote:
The only thing you're calling for is even more human suffering.

I'm actually okay with that in this instance.

That's awful.

regardless of whatever hope for people anyone may have there are many people in this world, and the U.S.A. produces a lot of them, that are irrevocably broken and no amount of therapy or help from outside will help them. Therapy, will only teach them ways to hide what they are better, and to manipulate others with greater success, medication only sedates them and makes them useless. An 11-year old is a kid, but is not innocent and idyllic and unaware of their actions. If the response from an 11-year old, when told they can't play with someones puppy is to go get a gun and shoot them then they are never ever going to be okay. I most assure you there are people that do not work like others, they do not have feelings the way other people do- and never ever will. No amount of therapy, medication, or time will fix them.

And yes, you cannot enforce people locking their guns up, however much like cell phones you can post penalize people for breaking a law without enforcing it prior. So yeah, there should be a law requiring all guns to be locked up at all times when not in use by the lawful owner. In cases like this, the owner should be held negligent. Do you need to actively check peoples guns? Nope, will it cause more people to actually lock their guns up if they can be at fault should something messed up happen? Yes.

**Breotan**

d-usa wrote:
cincydooley wrote:

@d-USA - I've bought all of mine in ohio or Kentucky and they've all come with trigger locks. Shotguns, handguns, and rifles alike.

Mine were all Oklahoma purchased.

I just thought that there was a particular state that required them (for stuff like that California just always comes to mind) and that is why they were included in all of them to make logistics easier.

In Washington State, I've never had to buy a trigger lock with a weapon.

**Grey Templar**

blaktoof wrote:
So yeah, there should be a law requiring all guns to be locked up at all times when not in use by the lawful owner.

Define "use". What if I have a gun that I have for self-defense? and thus need it to be ready to fire at all times. I can't really keep that locked up, even the fastest locks take a few seconds to disengage and then a few seconds to load. Thats seconds I might not have.

**d-usa**

Breotan wrote:
d-usa wrote:
cincydooley wrote:

@d-USA - I've bought all of mine in ohio or Kentucky and they've all come with trigger locks. Shotguns, handguns, and rifles alike.

Mine were all Oklahoma purchased.

I just thought that there was a particular state that required them (for stuff like that California just always comes to mind) and that is why they were included in all of them to make logistics easier.

In Washington State, I've never had to buy a trigger lock with a weapon.

Found it, it's actually a federal law: The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (2005)

Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act wrote:(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided under paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer any handgun to any person other than any person licensed under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in section 921(a)(34)) for that handgun.

Section 921(a)(34) wrote: The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—
(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to prevent the firearm from being operated without first deactivating the device;

(B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not having access to the device; or

(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a combination, or other similar means.