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After reading some of the fluff in the Grey Knight codex I had this scenario idea:
In the codex it says that the Grey Knights have some secret arrangements with various xeno races that supply them with some of their most exotic anti-daemon equipment. Enemy of my enemy, the greater threat and all that stuff.
What would happen if a Deathwatch kill-team was sent to exterminate the last remnants of one of these xenos races? These xenos are the only ones capable of crafting a particularly valuable piece of equipment, and faced with imminent annihilation they call on their Grey Knight allies to protect them. The Grey Knights intervene, but the arm of the Inquisition that gave the kill-team their orders knows nothing about their secret pact with said xenos: the kill team has already been sent and there is no time to abort the mission. The Grey Knights strike team has only one choice left: kill the Deathwatch marines before they reach their precious "allies".
Or maybe, the Inquisitor that sent the kill team does know that the xenos have an arrangement with the Grey Knights, but he's a puritan extremist who firmly believes that any form of consorting with xenos is heretical in the extreme, even for Grey Knights: if the kill-team has to kill Grey Knights to complete the mission, so be it.

Imperial troops end up attacking each other quite a lot based entirely on the premise that both sides of the conflict have been gievn orders by a percieved authority. The other force is therefore in the wrong and needs to be cleansed as heretics, or something similar. Given that the Grey Knight fluff at one point had them slaughtering a convent full of space nuns to gain the power of their blood, merely bumping off a Deathwatch Kill Team when no-one is looking seems pretty tame

Excellent question... And I really don't know.

Because both have inquisitorial influence and power, and both will do their utmost to see the objective completed. I'd say it's whoever gets there first, as warp travel is inconsistent.

Really can't see such clued-up loyalist marines being so easily bamboozled. The GK certainly, aren't going to be fooled, and the DW wouldn't be clueless about the existence of a fellow Chamber Militant. I think they'd stop a talk it out, telepathically before even meeting (GK all being psykers after all). Once the DW heard the GK's reasoning, I can't see them wanting to persecute their orders, not against such a more senior organisation of fellow SM like the GK. It'd end amicably, parting their ways peacefully, since the GK only bump off fellow Imp's who've seen too much, and rarely ever loyalist SM.
If you've really got your heart set on a confrontation though, have the KT successfully retrieve some artefact they've been ordered to gain that's actually demon-possessed and makes them perceive the GK coming to their aid as CSMs. Let a PC Libby occasionally get a WP-roll based 'glimpse' of silvery figures and a sense of 'wrongness'.

Plaz wrote:
Really can't see such clued-up loyalist marines being so easily bamboozled. The GK certainly, aren't going to be fooled, and the DW wouldn't be clueless about the existence of a fellow Chamber Militant. I think they'd stop a talk it out, telepathically before even meeting (GK all being psykers after all). Once the DW heard the GK's reasoning, I can't see them wanting to persecute their orders, not against such a more senior organisation of fellow SM like the GK. It'd end amicably, parting their ways peacefully, since the GK only bump off fellow Imp's who've seen too much, and rarely ever loyalist SM.
If you've really got your heart set on a confrontation though, have the KT successfully retrieve some artefact they've been ordered to gain that's actually demon-possessed and makes them perceive the GK coming to their aid as CSMs. Let a PC Libby occasionally get a WP-roll based 'glimpse' of silvery figures and a sense of 'wrongness'.

The GK bump fellow imperial whenever doing so improves their efficiency in fighting daemons (in addition to when they've seen to much or are possibly corrupt, of course), the codex fluff makes it quite clear.
What you describe might be one possible resolution, but remember that the average Deathwatch battle-brother wouldn't know about the Grey Knight existance (unless someone in the kill team has the Forbidden Lore: Inquisition), so they have to take the Grey Knights word that they are another chamber militant, and if the kill team contains some very puritanical elements like a Black Templar or such, they might be conflicted about this (disobeying orders and letting xenos live because an unknown astartes chapter claims they're allies? Smells like heresy). Or maybe the Grey Knight want to keep their pact with the xenos (and the fact that the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus does such things) a secret from the more puritanical factions, and so they must at least mind-wipe the Deathwatch marines: will the team accept this?
Or maybe the puritan Inquisitor who considers Grey Knights heretics for consorting with xenos has lied to the kill team and told them that their enemies have friends amongst a small cadre of renegade marines: who do they believe? And if they believe the Grey Knights, how do they convince the Inquisition and the Deathwatch that they had good reasons for disobeying orders? Especially since the Grey Knights had them mind-wiped as part of their arrangement to avoid confrontation and so the team has no memory of what happened during the mission? The Inquisitor in question is likely to do his best to have them declared traitors for letting xenos live...

Plaz wrote:
Really can't see such clued-up loyalist marines being so easily bamboozled. The GK certainly, aren't going to be fooled, and the DW wouldn't be clueless about the existence of a fellow Chamber Militant. I think they'd stop a talk it out, telepathically before even meeting (GK all being psykers after all). Once the DW heard the GK's reasoning, I can't see them wanting to persecute their orders, not against such a more senior organisation of fellow SM like the GK. It'd end amicably, parting their ways peacefully, since the GK only bump off fellow Imp's who've seen too much, and rarely ever loyalist SM.
If you've really got your heart set on a confrontation though, have the KT successfully retrieve some artefact they've been ordered to gain that's actually demon-possessed and makes them perceive the GK coming to their aid as CSMs. Let a PC Libby occasionally get a WP-roll based 'glimpse' of silvery figures and a sense of 'wrongness'.

O.O I don't see your version of events happening ever; It's too noble-bright.

First, officially the DW are 'equal' to the GK.
Both organizations take orders from different ordos of the inquisition (both of which, Xenos and Malleus, are equal).
Therefore both the DW and the GK have equal authority to complete their mission (which obviously creates a problem).
Neither side would back down because both sides are committed to their own missions.

There would be blood-shed.

The question should be, would it end with deaths or simply wounding/ incapacitation?
The GKs are remorseless, arrogant bastards and would simply aim to kill the DW for the sake of expedience.
The DWs have more honour(and sense imo) and would attempt to simply delay/incapacitate the GK's so they could continue their mission.

 Otto Weston wrote:

Plaz wrote:
Really can't see such clued-up loyalist marines being so easily bamboozled. The GK certainly, aren't going to be fooled, and the DW wouldn't be clueless about the existence of a fellow Chamber Militant. I think they'd stop a talk it out, telepathically before even meeting (GK all being psykers after all). Once the DW heard the GK's reasoning, I can't see them wanting to persecute their orders, not against such a more senior organisation of fellow SM like the GK. It'd end amicably, parting their ways peacefully, since the GK only bump off fellow Imp's who've seen too much, and rarely ever loyalist SM.
If you've really got your heart set on a confrontation though, have the KT successfully retrieve some artefact they've been ordered to gain that's actually demon-possessed and makes them perceive the GK coming to their aid as CSMs. Let a PC Libby occasionally get a WP-roll based 'glimpse' of silvery figures and a sense of 'wrongness'.

O.O I don't see your version of events happening ever; It's too noble-bright.

First, officially the DW are 'equal' to the GK.
Both organizations take orders from different ordos of the inquisition (both of which, Xenos and Malleus, are equal).
Therefore both the DW and the GK have equal authority to complete their mission (which obviously creates a problem).
Neither side would back down because both sides are committed to their own missions.

There would be blood-shed.

The question should be, would it end with deaths or simply wounding/ incapacitation?
The GKs are remorseless, arrogant bastards and would simply aim to kill the DW for the sake of expedience.
The DWs have more honour(and sense imo) and would attempt to simply delay/incapacitate the GK's so they could continue their mission.

If the DW bumps into GK by "accident" like it was in the example mentioned by OP, then they probably know absolutely nothing at all. However, that being said, if they kill the Grey Knights they will be treated as traitors by Grey Knights. Ignorance has never been a legitimate defence in Imperium. Watch Commander and/or highly ranked Ordo Xenos Inquisitor can probably save them, but at what price? Hope they've been nice to their commander previously...
In this situation I would imagine that, other than some very highly paced individuals, no one would ever hear of the incident and there would be virtually no repercussions. You can't very well have two of the most secret and highly skilled groups in the IoM going at each other.
If it worked out in the DW's favor then the watch fortress would end up with some new shiny toys in their vaults for study and use.

Agreed. As a rule - at least according to the Deathwatch/Dark Heresy RPG - the Watch members don't know about the Grey Knights; they are, after all, regular (if badass) chapter members, and the existance of the Daemonhunters is restricted to Chapter Master level with a few exceptions.

The biggest problem for this putative alien race is this: The Deathwatch aren't an army. They're a special ops force. A standard Kill-Team has maybe a dozen members, tops. They have neither the time, numbers nor inclination to fight a ground war during which out-of-star-system allies have time to intercede; if they've been ordered to 'take out' a xenos race, the most likely event is an Ordo Xenos Kill-Ship coming out of stealth in high orbit and salvo-firing exterminatus weapons.

A strongly worded letter of complaint to the alien's 'Allies' on Broadsword Station may result in some sort of enquiry but is kind of academic at this point....

If the two forces 'bumped into' one another....it's a different issue. Neither side is stupid, and both - whilst highly secret - have access to sufficiently high-level Inquisitorial recognition codes that they should be able to convince one another of their bona fides IF no-one does something stupid. What happens then is very dependent on the wording of their respective orders and the ease with which they can contact higher authority.

Note that it could well happen deliberately. A kill-team might well be sent precisely to disrupt such an alliance - an Ordo Xenos puritan might well pre-position a kill-team to ensure something unfortunate happened to a Grey Knight/Ordo Malleus delegation on said alien world. Such a kill-team would have been chosen knowing the possible consequences and would consist of people that the Inquisitor trusted to follow orders regardless of how distateful they are.

There are plenty of examples in novels and other background of the Deathwatch doing things just as unpleasant as anything the Grey Knights have done. Assassinating the Ordo Xenos' political rivals, deliberately infecting worlds with genestealer cults as part of "experiments", etc, etc. Being told "set up in stealth positions here and murder everyone who attends the meeting" would not be especially out of character.

It'd be a messy fight. Grey Knights are amongst the Imperium's finest, but so are the Deathwatch - and in this specific scenario the latter would presumably have come loaded for space marine.

You can't very well have two of the most secret and highly skilled groups in the IoM going at each other.

Not publicly, anyway. Different factions in the Inquisition get involved in skirmishes and even wars on a disconcertingly regular basis.

Grey Knights, while part of the Ordo Malleus, do not fall under the direct supervision of an Inquisitor as far as I know. So if the kill team were in contact with their overseeing Inquisitor during the mission like we have seen in some of the Deathwatch based novels then he could simply order the Grey Knights to stand down, or sanction the kill team's eradication of said Grey Knights, on the spot.

 Orblivion wrote:
Grey Knights, while part of the Ordo Malleus, do not fall under the direct supervision of an Inquisitor as far as I know. So if the kill team were in contact with their overseeing Inquisitor during the mission like we have seen in some of the Deathwatch based novels then he could simply order the Grey Knights to stand down, or sanction the kill team's eradication of said Grey Knights, on the spot.

Due to the extreme nature of their respective adverseries, Ordo Malleus are held as senior to Ordo Xenos, and the GK are senior to the DW by about 4 millenia or so.

Plaz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Grey Knights, while part of the Ordo Malleus, do not fall under the direct supervision of an Inquisitor as far as I know. So if the kill team were in contact with their overseeing Inquisitor during the mission like we have seen in some of the Deathwatch based novels then he could simply order the Grey Knights to stand down, or sanction the kill team's eradication of said Grey Knights, on the spot.

Due to the extreme nature of their respective adverseries, Ordo Malleus are held as senior to Ordo Xenos, and the GK are senior to the DW by about 4 millenia or so.

The Ordo Malleus is in no way held as senior to the Ordo Xenos but it doesn't matter, my point is that according to the Deathwatch novels I've read kill teams are often in direct contact with an overseeing Inquisitor during their missions while Grey Knights are not. Grey Knights do not have authority over an Inquisitor, regardless of which Ordo they belong to.

Indeed. Furthermore, whilst the respective political bodies of the ordos have different ages and the Ordo Malleus is often seen as the most senior of the major Ordos, there is no concept of 'rank' of the individual Inquisitors within them:

Barring the concept of a full Inquisitor Lord being involved in an operation, no one Inquisitor can legally issue orders to another.

Grey Knights would in theory take orders from an Ordo Xenos inquisitor. The problem comes when said orders directly countermand the orders from an Ordo Malleus inquisitor who dispatched them in the first place. Especially if they are under orders not to interact but to shoot first and ask questions later.

Fortunately, that's less likely in this scenario. Since they're the ones with the questionable allies trying to preserve the status quo; avoiding shooting is in their interest.

If the Ordo Malleus had a planet that was outfitting their chamber militant with xenos-gear, then i'm sure they'd wire tap all imperial communications and fleet movements for any reference to the planet, and if it comes up send an Inquisitor or his minion along to put their foot down and say "erm, no, this is ours now F*** off!".
Also Erioch features quarters where visiting Inquisitors may stay, and that's not just Ordo Xenos Inquisitors. As much as everyone would like to think that each Ordo is a force unto itself and they hide everything they do from eachother, they are all ultimately part of the Inquisition and if there is anything the big 'I' is good at, it's finding out what shouldn't be known.
So there's little chance the Deathwatch would just rock up and not have a clue as to what was in store for them.

Plaz wrote:
If the Ordo Malleus had a planet that was outfitting their chamber militant with xenos-gear, then i'm sure they'd wire tap all imperial communications and fleet movements for any reference to the planet, and if it comes up send an Inquisitor or his minion along to put their foot down and say "erm, no, this is ours now F*** off!".

Even more likely is they would quarantine the whole solar system. "By order of the Holy Inquisition, this system is off-limits to Imperial personnel. Inquiries can be directed to the Ordo Malleus."

Honestly? The situation should never happen. Why?

All Inquisitors know of the existence of the Grey Knights and what their mission is. They are supposed to know these are a force that stands against one enemy in particular.

Any Inquisitor that undermines that said mission would be likely branded Excommunicate Traitoris by the other Inquisitors who are not even part of the Ordo Malleus. Even if they were not, they would piss off an entire Ordo who could then take retribution into their own hands. Yea you might be an Inquisitor, but your authority is only as strong as the power you command.

Then going onto the Deathwatch, I wouldn't be surprised if the Deathwatch Watch Commanders knew about the existence of the said xenos and were explained to why they could not be hunted. Since they are also equivalent of Chapter Masters, they most likely know of the Grey Knights. There is a great deal of respect between the Ordo Militants so I wouldn't be surprised if that was enough for the Deathwatch to stand down.

So say an Inquisitor Puritan scenario did happen, the Watch Commander would stall him most likely so he could get word to another Inquisitor or even the Grey Knights. Then the clean-up operation starts.

Lol Deathwatch steals xenos equipment too

The Inquisition watches itself. It is likely that other Inquisitors or Watch Commanders would not let an Inquisitor carry out such a high-profile mission without broader consent. It would require deployment of a Kill-Ship, and I highly doubt any Inquisitor can just order those around. If backed by enough Inquisitors however, it could very easily set off a civil war between puritan and radical factions within the Inquisition.
In any case, the Grey Knights are subjected to the Inquisition, so if an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor orders them not to intervene they have to stay put. Other Inquisitors would likely be warned however and it is they who would have to take action and maybe order the Grey Knights to intervene.

This scenario doesn't make sense. The Grey Knights aren't "on call" for any Xeno. It isn't like they would phone them up to deal with a Deathwatch squad. Grey Knights access Xeno tech RARELY and when it works, but they aren't themselves closely allied with a a xeno race on a personal level to the degree that they will mobilize their incredibly precious resources to defend them, particularly from another portion of the Imperium.

Plaz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Grey Knights, while part of the Ordo Malleus, do not fall under the direct supervision of an Inquisitor as far as I know. So if the kill team were in contact with their overseeing Inquisitor during the mission like we have seen in some of the Deathwatch based novels then he could simply order the Grey Knights to stand down, or sanction the kill team's eradication of said Grey Knights, on the spot.

Due to the extreme nature of their respective adverseries, Ordo Malleus are held as senior to Ordo Xenos, and the GK are senior to the DW by about 4 millenia or so.

Citation required.

Yeah, generally, all of the Ordo are viewed as equal. And the age of the GK doesn't really mean they break that rule. There are far more DW potentially in action, so the two have similar footprints despite the GK being demonstrably more powerful individually.

Grey Knights vs Deathwatch: The Jokaero Wars.

 Psienesis wrote:

Plaz wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
Grey Knights, while part of the Ordo Malleus, do not fall under the direct supervision of an Inquisitor as far as I know. So if the kill team were in contact with their overseeing Inquisitor during the mission like we have seen in some of the Deathwatch based novels then he could simply order the Grey Knights to stand down, or sanction the kill team's eradication of said Grey Knights, on the spot.

Due to the extreme nature of their respective adverseries, Ordo Malleus are held as senior to Ordo Xenos, and the GK are senior to the DW by about 4 millenia or so.

Citation required.

They aren't described anywhere as senior, but the inquisition codex says that they are by far the most formidable.

Plaz wrote:
Really can't see such clued-up loyalist marines being so easily bamboozled. The GK certainly, aren't going to be fooled, and the DW wouldn't be clueless about the existence of a fellow Chamber Militant. I think they'd stop a talk it out, telepathically before even meeting (GK all being psykers after all). Once the DW heard the GK's reasoning, I can't see them wanting to persecute their orders,

This is the 40k universe, where literally they tell you on the opening pages where "forget the promise of progress and understanding, in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable" and all that.

We're talking psycho-indoctrinated xenocidal super soldiers of an extremely militaristic theocratic-fascist military superpower, where these organizations quite often fight other Imperial organizations. If the DW were ordered to wipe out a Xenos race, and the GK's stood against them, I doubt they'd just back off.

Space Marines rarely fight each other. You know because of a thing called the Horus Heresy.

 Quickjager wrote:
Space Marines rarely fight each other. You know because of a thing called the Horus Heresy.

They fight each other all the time. The Badab war, the Dark Angels & the attacks on the Black Templars, the Grey Knights and the Space Wolves, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Space Marines rarely fight each other. You know because of a thing called the Horus Heresy.

They fight each other all the time. The Badab war, the Dark Angels & the attacks on the Black Templars, the Grey Knights and the Space Wolves, etc.

And of course books are written on those incidents because it is so rare. Duh?

 Quickjager wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Space Marines rarely fight each other. You know because of a thing called the Horus Heresy.

They fight each other all the time. The Badab war, the Dark Angels & the attacks on the Black Templars, the Grey Knights and the Space Wolves, etc.

And of course books are written on those incidents because it is so rare. Duh?

So by that logic books are written about Space Marines fighting Orks because that's rare?

The very hardest battles are written about, yes, because that is what GW assumes people are interested in.

The vast majority of offscreen battles are quicker and smoother, which should be obvious. Nobody likes to read about Squad Genericus going about their average simple in-and-out "tag 'em and bag 'em" mission.

This is really not news. If the Astartes suffered losses like they do in these hardest of battles during every mission, they wouldn't have lasted through the entire Great Crusade. Your average tabletop battle is almost always a disaster for the Chapter, even if the game is technically won.

They fight to nearly the death in training cages, a full battle could just be a training exercise.

The grey knights really have it coming a long time. They have a warp fetish, publicly use xenos technology, work together with xenos and murdered tons of sisters.

The only reason those heretics aren't excommunicated already is because they are really effective in fighting daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would love a campaign where dark angels, black templars and sisters finally decided that those heretics crossed a line.