Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 th3maninblak wrote:


Maybe my luck with BA is due to my LGS using the ITC rules. But my win ratio vs eldar is really good. Also, I think we have a pretty awesome matchup against necrons.

I wasn't aware the ITC had any divine powers, because what you're describing is miraculous.

Or does your State have legal marijuana?

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:


Maybe my luck with BA is due to my LGS using the ITC rules. But my win ratio vs eldar is really good. Also, I think we have a pretty awesome matchup against necrons.

I wasn't aware the ITC had any divine powers, because what you're describing is miraculous.

Or does your State have legal marijuana?

Unfortunately no. But the fact that I keep getting negative responses to my generally optimistic posts is becoming rather stale. My wins vs top armies and conceptually/mathematically supported tactics seem to matter very little to those who feel like discouraging anyone who loves our boys in red.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:


Maybe my luck with BA is due to my LGS using the ITC rules. But my win ratio vs eldar is really good. Also, I think we have a pretty awesome matchup against necrons.

I wasn't aware the ITC had any divine powers, because what you're describing is miraculous.

Or does your State have legal marijuana?

Unfortunately no. But the fact that I keep getting negative responses to my generally optimistic posts is becoming rather stale. My wins vs top armies and conceptually/mathematically supported tactics seem to matter very little to those who feel like discouraging anyone who loves our boys in red.

I love how anyone who has a opinion that differs from the vocal majority and offers logical, reasonable support for said opinion gets ridiculed, and allusions to being high on marijuana for their trouble.

I for one fully intend to play, And enjoy playing, Blood Angels fully accepting that they may not be on the same power level as more recent armies and also fully accepting that the list doesn't have access to some toys that others do (Thunderfire, Centurions, etc.).

I don't care about any of that. You know why?

I DON'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE INTERNET OR IT'S OPINION ON MY ARMY AS A WHOLE. I LIKE BLOOD ANGELS AND MADE A THREAD TO DISCUSS THE BUILD I PLAN ON RUNNING FOR MY COMMAND SQUAD.

All of you who want to come in here and decry the army, take it to another thread. I'm tired of it and am frankly sick of the negativity.

Honestly, it's like this that makes me take extended breaks from this forum.

I've been on here since November of 2006. Not as long as some, but a whole effin' lot longer than most. I read on here a good deal but don't post much, and its crap like this response to th3maninblac's post above that just piss me right off.

Now, having gotten my rant out of the way, thank you to those who offered some level of constructive feedback to my storm shield build in my opening post. Even you, Martel, your first reply was actually somewhat surprising for me, but as usual you spiraled into your typical broken record drivel you insist on spouting.

That's all I've got to add. Hopefully more insightful discussion will come from this thread but the majority have their hateraide bottles open and straws in place it seems.

Also, th3maninblac, PM me later & I'll run a list idea by you I'e been working on. Would love some feedback on it without the peanut gallery asking me why I'm not fielding the list as generic 'red space marines'.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

So basically don't give criticism to bad builds and buys? This is a forum and you came here for assistance. I could list a TON of reasons why a melee Command Squad won't work. They pay a lot for power weapons, aren't durable for the price at that point, and still put out less damage than Death Company and Guard.

And, unfortunately, as Blood Angels you're going to have a very big uphill battle. There's no point in hiding this fact. There's a reason why, in tournaments, they're taken: more access to Drop Pods. Are they as in a rough spot as Dark Eldar or CSM? Of course not. However, there's little that works compared to its peers, and, while Martel comes off as bitter, Martel has a point to make. Quite frankly, if maninblak really has a Blood Angels list that can "mathematically" take on Eldar and Necrons, he better damn well share it. Honestly, I don't think there's anything new he found that NOBODY else has, as otherwise he'd be able to actually go to tournaments and show off those results. I'm not talking with houserules either.

This isn't the modeling section, it is the Tactics section. If you wouldn't rather listen to multiple people telling you something is a bad idea, don't bother posting. It's like the one person in a thread that encourages someone to waste money on Rubrics because they did "okay" once. Mathematically I showed why Rubrics are under performing to an equivalent point squad of vanilla CSM'S with two Plasma Guns. That's saying a lot because they under perform to Plague Marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically don't give criticism to bad builds and buys? This is a forum and you came here for assistance. I could list a TON of reasons why a melee Command Squad won't work. They pay a lot for power weapons, aren't durable for the price at that point, and still put out less damage than Death Company and Guard.

No, I came here looking for alternatives and other options that people have used and that have worked for them for a Command Squad in the Blood Angels army. Also, note how many power weapons I have in the opening post's quote with the squad in it? I know they pay a lot for power weapons, *why* do you think I'm not running any?? As for not being durable, they're far more durable than 5 Death Company and cost more with a built in power sword toting, WS:5 challenge soaker and 3++ saves with feel no pain on top of that. They aren't meant to put out crazy damage but make sure the Character that's attached to the squad makes it to combat alive and hopefully not wounded so that *HE* can bring his attacks to bear and offset the damage generation somewhat. I thought this was obvious based on my opening post, but apparently it wasn't, so there-ya-go.

And, unfortunately, as Blood Angels you're going to have a very big uphill battle. There's no point in hiding this fact. There's a reason why, in tournaments, they're taken: more access to Drop Pods. Are they as in a rough spot as Dark Eldar or CSM? Of course not. However, there's little that works compared to its peers, and, while Martel comes off as bitter, Martel has a point to make. Quite frankly, if maninblak really has a Blood Angels list that can "mathematically" take on Eldar and Necrons, he better damn well share it. Honestly, I don't think there's anything new he found that NOBODY else has, as otherwise he'd be able to actually go to tournaments and show off those results. I'm not talking with houserules either.

No crap they're fighting an uphill battle. I'm not arguing that, nor do I discount that Blood Angels are on the back side of the power curve (Not as bad off as some, I agree). This isn't meant for tournaments, but a general list that i hope to be able to be somewhat competitive with in my local 40k scene here. M3ninblac may very well have a list that does very well versus those lists in his meta, and it doesn't matter what that list is or what the meta is there. His experiences are just as valid as mine or yours, ITC or other rules sets involved or not. Also, full disclosure, I like the ITC rules and our local escalation league uses them. Tournaments aren't the only valid way to play this game and it pisses me off when people try to shout someone down because they don't play tournaments or their army doesn't place in the top whatever percent of whatever the last three or four big tournaments are. It's an ignorant mindset, and incredibly frustrating when I read that crap.

This isn't the modeling section, it is the Tactics section.

No ... Really?? ... Musta taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

If you wouldn't rather listen to multiple people telling you something is a bad idea, don't bother posting. It's like the one person in a thread that encourages someone to waste money on Rubrics because they did "okay" once. Mathematically I showed why Rubrics are under performing to an equivalent point squad of vanilla CSM'S with two Plasma Guns. That's saying a lot because they under perform to Plague Marines.

That train of though goes both ways. You haven't mathematically proven anything here, you've made three posts, two of which are borderline argumentative purely for the sake of being argumentative in my opinion. Why are you posting here?

We're talking about Command Squads in the Blood Angels army list. I intend to run one to give whatever HQ character I choose to run (a Captain or Librarian) some much needed survivability while they close in to charge. If you have an alternative build that you feel would work better, or a different unit in the Blood Angels codex that would work better than a Command Squad, then by all means, throw some math out to prove it please. I'd love to theory hammer with you.

Otherwise you're just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative and not really contributing anything, are you?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Eldar pay 270 pts for 40 str 6 shots at bs 4. 40. For 270 pts. That kind of firepower will smoke or cripple damn near any ba unit. How's that for math?

In all seriousness, ba might be the worst codex in the game. Worse than orks for sure. We dont have the shooting of the da. We are points inefficient compared to sob. Csm has plague marines, helldrakes and better fw options. BA big claim to fame is taking other iom units. That means ba are good only whenb youbdon't use them.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar pay 270 pts for 40 str 6 shots at bs 4. 40. For 270 pts. That kind of firepower will smoke or cripple damn near any ba unit. How's that for math?

Unless it's AV13...

Anyway, if you're running a Deathstar competitively it gets buffed up with Invis cover saves and wound allocation tricks. This might be more relevant to discuss than beating the ol' Scatterbike drum

To all the Eeyores in this forum: we get it, you lose every game you play. But you can make all of your losses useful. Just talk about them. It might be uncomfortable to talk about your endless string of defeats, but this is a safe place to share your experiences.

Because if you elaborate, you help. Even your ceaseless crys of, "No, because eldar. BUT ELDAR! WARGLE BLARGLE ELDAR!" can be constructive if you explain why you think you lost and what you would have done differently. We don't need you to be positive, just defeatist in a more informative way.

 Red Marine wrote:
We don't need you to be positive, just defeatist in a more informative way.

lol

That's the funniest thing I've ever read on Dakka

Since when did the ITC rules become "house rules?" How DARE a group of tournament organizers get together to FAQ/errata certain issues in the game and limit armies to 3 sources and 1 LoW. But more and more LGS and tournaments are accepting the ITC every day, so you might as well get used to that set of rules.

We are also far from the worst codex in the game. Grey Knights literally do not exist without allies. Neither do Dark Eldar. The ork book has a single viable build in Green Tide, one that has so many weaknesses it's not even funny. You tout plague marines as one of the things that make CSMs better than us? Please. Sure, they're solid, but ludicrously expensive. We still beat them easily. And tyranids? You mean codex flyrant? We beat the rest of that book so hard it's sad. Flyrants are the only thing they've got.

So, here is a list of books we are on par with or better than.
Grey Knights
Space Wolves
Chaos Space Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyranids
Orks
Dark Eldar
Astra Militarium

Huh. Would you look at that. It's around half the field.

Lastly, I have never said that facing eldar isn't an uphill fight (though I really haven't ever broken a sweat facing necrons). All I said is that they are definitely beatable. Adequate use of cover, liberal application of feel no pain, and as much 12+d6 moves as you can make carry you through that fight.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:


Maybe my luck with BA is due to my LGS using the ITC rules. But my win ratio vs eldar is really good. Also, I think we have a pretty awesome matchup against necrons.

I wasn't aware the ITC had any divine powers, because what you're describing is miraculous.

Or does your State have legal marijuana?

Unfortunately no. But the fact that I keep getting negative responses to my generally optimistic posts is becoming rather stale. My wins vs top armies and conceptually/mathematically supported tactics seem to matter very little to those who feel like discouraging anyone who loves our boys in red.

I own two armies; Blood Angels and Eldar. I feel I'm a pretty good Blood Angel player and a mediocre Eldar player. And yet I never feel like the game is at risk when I play Eldar. It quite often feels like racing a toddler. Yeah the toddler is going to win, but we all know why. Given the power level difference in the two codexes, I don't see how it is possible for the BAs to best Eldar without gross negligence/ extreme bad luck on the part of the Eldar player. Now it is entirely possible you're a brilliant tactician, but I don't think your results are repeatable. I hope to be proven wrong which is why I read your posts, I've just haven't been convinced by your evidence yet.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Since when did the ITC rules become "house rules?" How DARE a group of tournament organizers get together to FAQ/errata certain issues in the game and limit armies to 3 sources and 1 LoW. But more and more LGS and tournaments are accepting the ITC every day, so you might as well get used to that set of rules.

We are also far from the worst codex in the game. Grey Knights literally do not exist without allies. Neither do Dark Eldar. The ork book has a single viable build in Green Tide, one that has so many weaknesses it's not even funny. You tout plague marines as one of the things that make CSMs better than us? Please. Sure, they're solid, but ludicrously expensive. We still beat them easily. And tyranids? You mean codex flyrant? We beat the rest of that book so hard it's sad. Flyrants are the only thing they've got.

So, here is a list of books we are on par with or better than.
Grey Knights
Space Wolves
Chaos Space Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyranids
Orks
Dark Eldar
Astra Militarium

Huh. Would you look at that. It's around half the field.

Lastly, I have never said that facing eldar isn't an uphill fight (though I really haven't ever broken a sweat facing necrons). All I said is that they are definitely beatable. Adequate use of cover, liberal application of feel no pain, and as much 12+d6 moves as you can make carry you through that fight.

I dont think the ba truly on par with any of those lists. That makes ba the worst list.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Since when did the ITC rules become "house rules?" How DARE a group of tournament organizers get together to FAQ/errata certain issues in the game and limit armies to 3 sources and 1 LoW. But more and more LGS and tournaments are accepting the ITC every day, so you might as well get used to that set of rules.

We are also far from the worst codex in the game. Grey Knights literally do not exist without allies. Neither do Dark Eldar. The ork book has a single viable build in Green Tide, one that has so many weaknesses it's not even funny. You tout plague marines as one of the things that make CSMs better than us? Please. Sure, they're solid, but ludicrously expensive. We still beat them easily. And tyranids? You mean codex flyrant? We beat the rest of that book so hard it's sad. Flyrants are the only thing they've got.

So, here is a list of books we are on par with or better than.
Grey Knights
Space Wolves
Chaos Space Marines
Sisters of Battle
Tyranids
Orks
Dark Eldar
Astra Militarium

Huh. Would you look at that. It's around half the field.

Lastly, I have never said that facing eldar isn't an uphill fight (though I really haven't ever broken a sweat facing necrons). All I said is that they are definitely beatable. Adequate use of cover, liberal application of feel no pain, and as much 12+d6 moves as you can make carry you through that fight.

I never said Plague Marines made CSM superior. In fact, if you read the post, you'd have seen I was making an example with the Rubric Marine threads that pop up every so often. In fact, I directly said Blood Angels was superior to CSM's. The Purge FOC helps even things out, but I digress.

And yes, ITC is houserules because they have to set limits on what is obviously an imbalance of power amongst the armies. You can call it commonplace all you want, but that doesn't make it any less of of houserules.

I already commented that they were higher than Dark Eldar. Saying they're higher than Grey Knights though because they don't exist without allies is laughable. Blood Angels are on that same boat because they're taken for lots of Drop Pods, but at least Grey Knights are taken for two offensive points: Draigo and Dreadknights.
Also, Tyranids are HIGHLY more competitive. Mawlocs and Flyrants actually do something against heavy hitters in various codices. It doesn't matter how much better you are than the rest of the codex, because who wants to take deliberately bad choices?
Also, you're so off about Space Wolves it's comical.

So, what are you REALLY on par with? Let us count:
1. CSM
2. Imperial Guard
3. Orks
4. Dark Eldar
5. Sisters (which is debatable, if they're stealing Blood Angels Drop Pods)
6. Harlequins and MT (and we can be honest: these really aren't codices like how LotD aren't really a codex)

So that number is actually REALLY low.

So PLEASE tell these aspiring Blood Angels players your list you is to regularly and mathematically beat the 7.5 codices. Because at this point you're just talking but not actually showing results.

 Red Marine wrote:
To all the Eeyores in this forum: we get it, you lose every game you play. But you can make all of your losses useful. Just talk about them. It might be uncomfortable to talk about your endless string of defeats, but this is a safe place to share your experiences.

Because if you elaborate, you help. Even your ceaseless crys of, "No, because eldar. BUT ELDAR! WARGLE BLARGLE ELDAR!" can be constructive if you explain why you think you lost and what you would have done differently. We don't need you to be positive, just defeatist in a more informative way.

I got shot to death from 36" away. BA cant absorb eldar firepower. Its nothing complicated or mysterious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar pay 270 pts for 40 str 6 shots at bs 4. 40. For 270 pts. That kind of firepower will smoke or cripple damn near any ba unit. How's that for math?

Unless it's AV13...

Anyway, if you're running a Deathstar competitively it gets buffed up with Invis cover saves and wound allocation tricks. This might be more relevant to discuss than beating the ol' Scatterbike drum

Yes that might work. However at that point you are better off not using ba at all.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes that might work. However at that point you are better off not using ba at all.

Allies -- the greatest heresy

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes that might work. However at that point you are better off not using ba at all.

Allies -- the greatest heresy

Not really. It's just that a pure vanilla list would be better than a BA list with libby conclave. So why bother with BA?

At some point I just need to see if I can break the game and use WWP Wraithguard, Scatterbikes, Destroyer Cult and Canoptek Harvest, and then see if I can fit Wraithknights. Curse being at work and not having my laptop on hand!

So I was wrong about space wolves? Tell me, what other good units does that book even have aside from various things riding around on oversized german shepherds? Go ahead. I'll wait.

Once I get home and have access to something other than my tablet again I'll sit down and start working on a tactical article/thread about the Blood Angels, a unit analysis, their matchups and how to beat the top armies. I wasn't planning on saying all of this without being willing to put my money where my mouth is.

 th3maninblak wrote:
So I was wrong about space wolves? Tell me, what other good units does that book even have aside from various things riding around on oversized german shepherds? Go ahead. I'll wait.

Once I get home and have access to something other than my tablet again I'll sit down and start working on a tactical article/thread about the Blood Angels, a unit analysis, their matchups and how to beat the top armies. I wasn't planning on saying all of this without being willing to put my money where my mouth is.

It doesn't matter what else a codex has. What matters is what is played. That's why Tyranids do well. It isn't a well written codex, but its only good units are getting results on the table.

Anyone can write up an article. I want your magic list that seems to keep up with 7.5 codices. Martel especially will want to know, and as a SM/CSM/Necron player I WANT to see a Blood Angels list that's scary.

I can't wait for that.

Most other BA players can't even beat me a mirror match. They talk a bunch of junk, but usually have some dubious units or end up allowing a spoiling attack. Or don't bring enough shooting.

Martel732 wrote:
I can't wait for that.

Most other BA players can't even beat me a mirror match. They talk a bunch of junk, but usually have some dubious units or end up allowing a spoiling attack. Or don't bring enough shooting.

Now, now.,. is beating BA really anything to be proud of?

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I can't wait for that.

Most other BA players can't even beat me a mirror match. They talk a bunch of junk, but usually have some dubious units or end up allowing a spoiling attack. Or don't bring enough shooting.

Now, now.,. is beating BA really anything to be proud of?

With BA? Yes. No one has an advantage.

Martel732 wrote:
With BA? Yes. No one has an advantage.

That's the joke

You losing to eldar Martel is not a mystery. It is in fact all you talk about. Indeed you regularly derail threads with blunt, useless statements about the undefeatable eldar. Just like you have hear.

What i was trying to get at was, that we need to get away from that. When you got shot 144 by scat bikes did anything survive? Was it because of los blocking terrain? Didnt your DSing sternpods, fragernaughts or assault squads accomplish anything against a scatspam list?

Please dont think im singling out Martel. There are a lot of gloom trolls in our BA threads. I dont mind people venting their frustrations, im just done watching it derail another thread with, " WE SUCK! WE SUCK! 'CAUSE ELDAR!". For the love of an almighty god that may or may not exist, try and at least give examples. Even anecdotal info is more constructive at this point.

 Red Marine wrote:
You losing to eldar Martel is not a mystery. It is in fact all you talk about. Indeed you regularly derail threads with blunt, useless statements about the undefeatable eldar. Just like you have hear.

What i was trying to get at was, that we need to get away from that. When you got shot 144 by scat bikes did anything survive? Was it because of los blocking terrain? Didnt your DSing sternpods, fragernaughts or assault squads accomplish anything against a scatspam list?

Please dont think im singling Martel. There are a lot of gloom trolls in our BA threads. I dont mind people venting their frustrations, im just done watching it derail another thread with, " WE SUCK! WE SUCK! 'CAUSE ELDAR!". For the love of an almighty god that may or may not exist, try and at least give examples. Even anecdotal info is more constructive at this point.

If you want, I can list the individual armies that are better and why they are. I don't play Blood Angels either so it wouldn't be a masochistic person contributing.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes that might work. However at that point you are better off not using ba at all.

Not really. It's just that a pure vanilla list would be better than a BA list with libby conclave. So why bother with BA?

I'm so close to just asking the mods to delete this thread entirely.

Martel, you're entitled to your opinion, but for the love of all things good and just, stop passing your opinion off as fact or the only right one. It's irritatingly troll like behavior.

-Red__Thirst-

This thread isn't even close to the train wreck it would need to be to be deleted.

We all come from different metas and we all have various opinions about the power level of the Blood Angels. So reaching consensus isn't going to happen, But one the thing we all have in common is we are passionate about Blood Angels. And I think there is value in having the conversation regardless of the outcome.

 Red Marine wrote:
You losing to eldar Martel is not a mystery. It is in fact all you talk about. Indeed you regularly derail threads with blunt, useless statements about the undefeatable eldar. Just like you have hear.

What i was trying to get at was, that we need to get away from that. When you got shot 144 by scat bikes did anything survive? Was it because of los blocking terrain? Didnt your DSing sternpods, fragernaughts or assault squads accomplish anything against a scatspam list?

Please dont think im singling out Martel. There are a lot of gloom trolls in our BA threads. I dont mind people venting their frustrations, im just done watching it derail another thread with, " WE SUCK! WE SUCK! 'CAUSE ELDAR!". For the love of an almighty god that may or may not exist, try and at least give examples. Even anecdotal info is more constructive at this point.

Forget Eldar. Try to go up against SW or even DE. BA are still one of few lists where counterattack +CCW is extremely useful. If we don't use Baal Strike Force, AND get the assault off, Space Wolves are basically an auto-lose from an assault standpoint. So non-Baal Strikeforce have to try to outshoot SW every time. Who here builds their list to do that? Other than myself, who has pretty much given up on BA assault lists? I haven't beaten a SW list with TWC yet, either. They make shooting kill zones in front of the TWC so I can't get DC in position to assault. Because they know that that's the only chance I have against the TWC, so they take that away. It's not rocket science when BA shooting is so miserably bad.

As for the DE, they are just Eldar light to us. They move quickly, and have withering firepower, if not as potent as the Eldar. They move to places where assaults need a 9 or better to go off and keep firing. They can safely ignore objectives till turn 4 or so after they have crippled the BA list, and then just move in at their leisure.

The bottom line is that good opponents can easily scheme an assault-based list that MUST assault to get its goodies. The BA scheme is just very, very limiting in general and always has been. It's just that the rules never disfavored our scheme as much as they do now. Want to assault? Roll randomly, but that's after I overwatch you. Oh, and if I kill your front couple guys, your assault probably fails. And THAT's after a turn or two of crazy firepower coming in against the BA list. Firepower that the BA can only return a fraction of usually.

Everyone who takes on BA where I play knows exactly what has to happen for BA to win. So they just make sure that that never happens. I'm getting pretty flabbergasted when anyone actually loses to BA at this point. But maybe not everyone is a 3rd and 5th ed vet like the majority of my play group. I don't know.

Playing with more terrain makes SW better, not worse against BA since the hold the assault advantage. The DE will probably just take their chances in the terrain and let there be an additional -2 charge distance tacked on to my assaults. Either way, I don't see how the terrain is going to save BA. We can't get enough shooting and assault into a list to be a threat.

I'm willing to concede that the invis DC-star would probably do better than the lists I field. However, I don't think that it's even close to the top of invis-stars, and also, I don't want to play that list. And because I don't want to play it, I don't want to spend the money on it, either. I'd also have to get the space marine troops minimally and paint them up to stay bound. Just yuck.

In an effort to bring the thread back to what it was intended for, the build you have is decent. Their purpose is to escort your beat stick to combat, and support him once there. They will do this decently well. In fact, I may steal the loadout for my ultramarines command squad/honour guard in the future

Thats what I'm talking about Martel! It doesnt have to be positive. You can say, " My BAs suck.". Just please add, "...because X,Y & Z keep giving me problems.". Now we have a starting point for a more constructive conversation.

Maybe try baiting the SWs first? Lure them in with a rhino mounted tac squad or a cheap dread?

But like War Kitten said, probably not the thread for this. Maybe someone can reboot the more general BAs tactics thread. I hadn't thought of this command squad as just a beatstick delivery system. It does seem to do that job pretty well. For that purpose I'd say cheapen itby downgrading the Pfist or removing it.