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Wouldn't Vanguard Veterans be a better choice for beat stick delivery? Essentially the same models with more bodies. The main problem for any assault unit in 7th is attrition. If your lucky you can get off two or more assaults because of the extra bodies before they are combat ineffective.

I may build up an alternate non power fist marine to plug in and make the squad cheaper for low point games, but I like the thought of having a hidden power fist in the squad for head crushing purposes.

It's nice to have a few extra AP:2 attacks as well that are likely to wound and are high enough strength to be double toughness more often than not.

This squad will usually have at least one, and possibly two characters attached to it in the form of a Librarian and a Captain. I want the marines to able to absorb a good amount of firepower and allow those characters to make it to melee and be all the more durable than they already are thanks to Feel no Pain.

Hopefully it'll show good results on the tabletop once I get to playing it and testing it out here locally on the tabletop.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Wouldn't Vanguard Veterans be a better choice for beat stick delivery? Essentially the same models with more bodies. The main problem for any assault unit in 7th is attrition. If your lucky you can get off two or more assaults because of the extra bodies before they are combat ineffective.

Vanguard are overcosted and have crap durability.

As far as command squads go, my best luck has been in a drop pod. I searched for weeks to find a unit that was an acceptable delivery system for Mephiston, and a command squad in a pod with 3 melta guns and storm shields fit the bill flawlessly. Alongside 4x5 sternguard with various combis in pods from the 1st company task force, it becomes quite the force.

Speaking of which, that formation is BONKERS when paired with our psychic powers and Mephy. If you can roll Fear of the Darkness on him or another BA psyker (2/3 chance), you can force backfield units to take a ld test at -4, and then with a little luck watch them run off the table. I managed to take out a biker command squad and a 20 man necron warrior blob with some characters in one tournament with this tactic. Also, it combos nicely with Mephistons Transfixing Gaze ability, as unlike other abilities of its type, it doesn't function off of "unmodified leadership", just leadership.

 th3maninblak wrote:
As far as command squads go, my best luck has been in a drop pod. I searched for weeks to find a unit that was an acceptable delivery system for Mephiston, and a command squad in a pod with 3 melta guns and storm shields fit the bill flawlessly. Alongside 4x5 sternguard with various combis in pods from the 1st company task force, it becomes quite the force.

Speaking of which, that formation is BONKERS when paired with our psychic powers and Mephy. If you can roll Fear of the Darkness on him or another BA psyker (2/3 chance), you can force backfield units to take a ld test at -4, and then with a little luck watch them run off the table. I managed to take out a biker command squad and a 20 man necron warrior blob with some characters in one tournament with this tactic. Also, it combos nicely with Mephistons Transfixing Gaze ability, as unlike other abilities of its type, it doesn't function off of "unmodified leadership", just leadership.

I don't like drop pods in general for BA because they force you to commit very early and turns off the chapter tactic.

Martel732 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Wouldn't Vanguard Veterans be a better choice for beat stick delivery? Essentially the same models with more bodies. The main problem for any assault unit in 7th is attrition. If your lucky you can get off two or more assaults because of the extra bodies before they are combat ineffective.

Vanguard are overcosted and have crap durability.

You lose FnP and the suicidal champion, but your get more bodies and more storm shields.

I'm not thrilled about BA honor guard durability, either. The storm shield vanguard guys will just be dakkaed down by scatterlasers, mulilasers, autocannons, or FRFSF.

Which is true of anything we put on the field. Marines have a durability issue period.

War Kitten wrote:
In an effort to bring the thread back to what it was intended for, the build you have is decent. Their purpose is to escort your beat stick to combat, and support him once there. They will do this decently well. In fact, I may steal the loadout for my ultramarines command squad/honour guard in the future

HOW are they any more supportive than Death Company or Guard? Trying to outfit any command squad for melee is a terrible idea.

But it is very Blood Angely to do so.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Wouldn't Vanguard Veterans be a better choice for beat stick delivery? Essentially the same models with more bodies. The main problem for any assault unit in 7th is attrition. If your lucky you can get off two or more assaults because of the extra bodies before they are combat ineffective.

Two things:

First, the squad has a built in challenge catcher with WS:5, and 'free' power sword and combat shield attached.
Second, another Veteran has the Nerthecium built in for 'free' as well and gives the squad and all attached characters feel no pain without tying up an HQ slot to put a Sanguinary High Priest in the army and attaching him.

I think the VeteranSquad + Sang Priest and another independent character (Librarian) could work well too and have more bodies, but it costs a lot more points wise to run a full squad of veterans and make this work.

You can run a Command Squad/Honor guard as I am for 180, which includes the Champ & Novitiate giving FnP to all models in or attached to the squad, attach a 105 point ML2 Librarian with a jump pack who now has a 3++ save thanks to the shieldwall veterans + Look Out Sir! on top of that. Then attach another ~150 to ~175 point Captain with Valor's edge + Artificer Armor & Jump Pack, and any other wargear you like. That totals out to 450 points if I split the difference and say the Captain is 165 points in cost. I'll note the base cost of this squad, with no upgrades other than Jump Packs, is 125 Points. A Vanguard Veteran squad can be made slightly cheaper, but lacks built in FnP without adding in an Independent character that ties up an HQ slot and I want both Independent characters to be the main offensive punch in the squad with AP:2 attacks and AP:2 Force weapon attacks a well.

You are correct, assault is about attrition, which is why I'm trying to stack the most offense I can in with the squad and characters attached while at the same time maximizing defensive ability through invulnerable saves and FnP, That's my logic anyway.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Edit: Also forgot to mention that the Company Champion is a Character, so 4+ Look Out Sir! may be used to dole wounds off to a Storm Shield Veteran that would otherwise ignore the Champ's armor save. That's much better than the combat shield's 6+ save for sure. Same goes for the Sanguinary Novitiate as well.

That's a lot of points for a non-death star.

Martel732 wrote:
That's a lot of points for a non-death star.

Not everyone fields Deathstars all the time, sparky. Most people around here actively don't. They're not fun to play or play against. We try and actually enjoy our games, which is why I try to make things fluffy while still being effective.

That may be hard for you to process, so I'll wait till it has a chance to sink in.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's a lot of points for a non-death star.

Not everyone fields Deathstars all the time, sparky. Most people around here actively don't. They're not fun to play or play against. We try and actually enjoy our games, which is why I try to make things fluffy while still being effective.

That may be hard for you to process, so I'll wait till it has a chance to sink in.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Does it make what I say any less true?

Martel732 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's a lot of points for a non-death star.

Not everyone fields Deathstars all the time, sparky. Most people around here actively don't. They're not fun to play or play against. We try and actually enjoy our games, which is why I try to make things fluffy while still being effective.

That may be hard for you to process, so I'll wait till it has a chance to sink in.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Does it make what I say any less true?

Seriously? Do you have a mental block or what? I said *I'm NOT trying to make or build a death star.* Considering *ONE* HQ choice in my I.G army (Tank Commander) is over 350 points for just two tanks, the fact that I have two HQ choices and an elite choice crammed into 450 points is pretty good in my opinion.

I don't know. If the words written read like they were written by a douche, sound like a douchey thing to say, and make the writer come off as a douche,... you get the idea, I hope, be it truth or not.

Still waiting for the fact that I'm actively not building a death star to sink in. Hopefully it will soon. I await that noble moment to arrive in the mean time.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Have you tried the command squad yet?

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's a lot of points for a non-death star.

Not everyone fields Deathstars all the time, sparky. Most people around here actively don't. They're not fun to play or play against. We try and actually enjoy our games, which is why I try to make things fluffy while still being effective.

That may be hard for you to process, so I'll wait till it has a chance to sink in.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Does it make what I say any less true?

Seriously? Do you have a mental block or what? I said *I'm NOT trying to make or build a death star.* Considering *ONE* HQ choice in my I.G army (Tank Commander) is over 350 points for just two tanks, the fact that I have two HQ choices and an elite choice crammed into 450 points is pretty good in my opinion.

I don't know. If the words written read like they were written by a douche, sound like a douchey thing to say, and make the writer come off as a douche,... you get the idea, I hope, be it truth or not.

Still waiting for the fact that I'm actively not building a death star to sink in. Hopefully it will soon. I await that noble moment to arrive in the mean time.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

So you're not looking to build a death star, yet pay the same amount as someone would for one, and when told it isn't a good way to build the unit and overall a bad use of points,you kinda ignore it?

The main issue is that you refute good advice because you don't look for competitive builds. If that's the case, why bother in this section?

BTW it should 185 points for your build.

It would seem to me a Sgt with a power sword and storm shield could do more or less the same job. Anybody that is going to issue a challenge is most likely going to hit on 3s with a lot of attacks. So his survival is doubtful.

After playing around with the numbers I'm not finding an alternate vanguard build I like for 185 pts.

Where are you getting 185?

I've done the math, it's 125 base (Jump Packs included in that cost), plus the Power Fist and three storm shields is 55 points, which brings the cost to 180 points.

I don't have any meltabombs on any of them, which would make them 185 at that point, but I opted to let the powerfist be the anti-tank punch (in addition to a plethora of ST:5 attacks on the charge for glancing). Or, alternatively, using Krak grenades for ST:6 attacks on the rear armor.

Just curious as to where this mystery five points is showing up.

Thanks for the feedback, and yea I too looked at a Vanguard Veteran equivalent for similar points and I couldn't come up with a build I was happy with.

The Company Champ's survival being doubtful is okay, as he'll absorb the attacks of whatever that nastiness is and allow the Captain and Librarian + Power Fist marine to clean house on the squad/unit they're charging, I hope.

More later, take it easy for now and thanks again for the feedback Crimson Devil.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Nevermind.

I hate math.

I added that up three times before I posted and now I can't figure out where the extra 5 came from.

No worries, glad we got to the bottom of it.

Also, to answer your question, I have tried this command squad in one game using a previous iteration of the build.

That iteration had one power weapon (Mace) and bolt pistol Veteran backed up by two Storm shield & Chainsword veterans that also each had a Meltabomb.

They performed admirably, but I wanted more defense coupled with more low AP swings. The powerfist fit the bill and didn't change the cost directly, as I dropped both of the meltabombs and used the points to upgrade the Power Weapon to a Fist, and then sprung to put a shield on that Marine as well so I had three of them in the squad (added survivability). I've not had a chance to try this iteration yet, but plan to soon.

Sorry I missed the question earlier also.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Martel732 wrote:

Dante is a crap LoW (he's an assault guy, so cute in 7th) in a crap codex backed up by crap units.

So a jump-packing, arty-halo, feel-no-pain taking, fear-inducing, meltagun-toting, 4 wounded, 220 point LORD OF WAR is bad now?
gak, he's better than Calgar, where he has to take either a squashy vehicle, deepstrike in possible Melta Range and punch crap to death. for another 65 points. Sure, he can shoot like there's no tomorrow but his Storm Bolters are only gonna get him so far in a game about MSU.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Dante is a crap LoW (he's an assault guy, so cute in 7th) in a crap codex backed up by crap units.

So a jump-packing, arty-halo, feel-no-pain taking, fear-inducing, meltagun-toting, 4 wounded, 220 point LORD OF WAR is bad now?
gak, he's better than Calgar, where he has to take either a squashy vehicle, deepstrike in possible Melta Range and punch crap to death. for another 65 points. Sure, he can shoot like there's no tomorrow but his Storm Bolters are only gonna get him so far in a game about MSU.

Yes, because all the Astartes LoW seem rather poor. They are all crap compared to that librarian who picks his powers, because he turns on the invis for grav cents.

Dante straight up loses to a smashbane biker chapter master. I would expect more from a LoW.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Dante is a crap LoW (he's an assault guy, so cute in 7th) in a crap codex backed up by crap units.

So a jump-packing, arty-halo, feel-no-pain taking, fear-inducing, meltagun-toting, 4 wounded, 220 point LORD OF WAR is bad now?
gak, he's better than Calgar, where he has to take either a squashy vehicle, deepstrike in possible Melta Range and punch crap to death. for another 65 points. Sure, he can shoot like there's no tomorrow but his Storm Bolters are only gonna get him so far in a game about MSU.

Fear is a lame rule, and saying he's carrying a Melta Gun is a straight up lie.

Calgar is WAY better. He's slower, but able to get a better Warlord trait, and gives more use of Doctrines. He actually buffs his entire army.

I've not yet tried Honour Guard, but I'm always a bit put off by the 5 man limit. If I could add another 5 guys I'd be all over them.

The other thing I'm not a fan of is not being able to give wargear to the apothecary and the champion.