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The main thing I remember from 2nd edition was that it often devolved down to which ubercharacter got into close combat first. A lot of the troops choices were merely window dressing. I was about 13 at the time though, so our tactics may well have been somewhat, well, crap

No, you're sort of right Flinty. characters in general were hth combat beasts, even shooty ones like Maugan Ra could demolish whole units in combat.
Added to that Chaos had the ability to custom build Lords with wargear that make todays Abaddon look like a chump.
Im talking ws9, t6, up to 10 attacks, 4++ saves etc .
I found once the dust had settled 2nd ed did definielty have a herohammer feel to it.
Coupled with the crazy that was overwatch a lot of battles did come down to heroes clashing midfield whilst everything else overwatched or simply got chewed up as cannon fodder in combat (remember every model after the first got +1WS attack bonus, so if you let those 5 bloodclaws die and then send in Ragnar he'd be base Ws +5!).
I saw Grot units fight the Avatar in hth and have a chance

 Ratius wrote:
No, you're sort of right Flinty. characters in general were hth combat beasts, even shooty ones like Maugan Ra could demolish whole units in combat.

Characters were often very good in close combat, and could wipe out an entire unit. It would just take most of the game to do it. Last game I had a tooled-up Chaplain charged one of my Guard squads. He killed the Guardsman he attacked, obviously, and used his follow up move to engage another Guardsman. The rest of the squad pretty much ignored him and continued shooting at something else. After he had killed 4 Guardsmen, the remaining 6 just ran off :-)

The balancing factor of badass characters was shooting. Any chump with a lascannon had a good chance of doing 2D6 wounds to a character which mostly had 2-4 wounds.

Yeah but those single beatsticks were easy to hide, were usually packing 4++ or 3++ saves (displacer anyone?), some had termy armor which could actually save the lascannon hit, could be made harder to actually hit via -1 range modifers, -2 in hard cover etc and usually had access to fast moving wargear (jump packs, gate psychic power, wings, teleporters etc).

Sure you could snipe one with a lascannon but it was darn hard work :(

In 2nd ed, you had to shoot the closest unit/model, which made it very easy to use god-mode characters.

The whole rule set was terrible, and the balance was likewise terrible.

Martel732 wrote:
The whole rule set was terrible, and the balance was likewise terrible.

I'll agree with you on the second count, but the *whole* rule set wasn't terrible. There were just a few flaws that needed fixing and it could have been a pretty good game, compared to 7th which would need an entire rewrite to be half decent.

2nd edition's biggest flaws, IMO, were the close combat phase and the general poor balance of the codices. But I think the core rules had more potential than any edition since.

It would be, perhaps, better to think of RT/2nd Ed as a "competitive role-playing game", which is what this BS about "forging the narrative" is supposed to be about, rather than a table-top wargame.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Armies looked like this, but smaller. Here's my retro-style Ultramarines:






Although I only painted that army in the last two years or so.

i actually own the OG whirlwind turret and grafted it onto a modern razorback so damn sexy is that missle launcher

In 2nd ed, you had to shoot the closest unit/model, which made it very easy to use god-mode characters.

Yes that was a definite flaw. Infact individual characters as per the rules couldnt be targetted unless they were the closest. Bizzare when you have Kharn bearing down on you but a useless group of cultists just in front of him

When shooting Nids iirc, there was a special rule where if you took a LD test you could fire on their bigger creatures irrespective. Something like that would have helped a lot in general.

 Ratius wrote:
I also miss different units having different speeds, it felt much more realistic. Like a Stealer should be faster than a regular Guardsman, or Banshees able to outrun Orks.

I concur that it probably did have too many sub rules and some wacky cards and overwatch was utterly broken as a mechanic but the vehicles rules I really liked - they felt like.....well big juicy machines of death rather than boxes to be stripped of hullpoints.

overwatch still is a broken mechanic its this thing you do automatically as a player rather than something that you should choose to do. if i were in charge of rules writing i would make it clear that if any models overwatched not only could they not voerwatch again in the same phase but that they forfeited their ability to attack back with pistols having the effect of allowing attacks back at ws1. now you need to decide if trading away your pistols for combi weapons is a good idea on your units rather than a mechanical auto buy, and if your whiff your overwatch your dead and you know it. now the mechanic is a choice and a gamble you make as opposed to a thing you jsut automatically do (for most armies, with the exception of the tau because screw actually playing the game your opponent is playing right?). it forces you to consider a number of factors rather than just sit there and go okay well here comes my automatic response.

overwatch is far to reflexsive when it should be mechanical. in a world where overwatch is mechanical this army race for fancier and more quantative death cannons isnt so bad, because if going back to tau here for a second, if their ion death rays of greater good justice death fail them their army is probably going to be in for a nightmare of a following turn

I've read enough to be interested in trying a game.
Anybody in my area (NW ohio) who still has these rules (and minis)?

Let me know thanks
Austin

 Ratius wrote:

In 2nd ed, you had to shoot the closest unit/model, which made it very easy to use god-mode characters.

Yes that was a definite flaw. Infact individual characters as per the rules couldnt be targetted unless they were the closest. Bizzare when you have Kharn bearing down on you but a useless group of cultists just in front of him

When shooting Nids iirc, there was a special rule where if you took a LD test you could fire on their bigger creatures irrespective. Something like that would have helped a lot in general.

This problem existed in 3rd and 4th as well, IC's could only be targeted if they were the closest model. Made for some absurdly abuseable shennanigans even in those later editions (looking at you Jetbike Farseers....)

 Ratius wrote:

In 2nd ed, you had to shoot the closest unit/model, which made it very easy to use god-mode characters.

Yes that was a definite flaw. Infact individual characters as per the rules couldnt be targetted unless they were the closest. Bizzare when you have Kharn bearing down on you but a useless group of cultists just in front of him
.

Although 'The Assassins' mission set killing the enemy commander as your mission objective... and you were allowed to ignore the closest target in favour of shooting at a mission objective instead.

I remember my very first game against Abaddon when the Chaos Codex was released... My opponent had Abaddon in the middle of a squad of Berzerker Terminators. Turn one - Lascannon to Abaddon's head. Bye bye...


But yeah, in the general course of things, characters were just nasty.

I started in 2nd edition, it was awesome.

Everyone talks about how to make Terminators good these days, well in 2nd they were.

3+ save on 2D6 (and weapons modified armor) but worst case you were looking at a 7+ even against las and melta. Nothing outright ignored armor.

Oh also they hit on a 1+ (WS5 and a targeter stock) so even with modified to hit you were looking at 2's. Not to mention storm bolters could get up to 4 shots a turn. Powerfists were amazing as well.

All the close combat weapons were good and had stats and such, like, beyond a chainsword (S4 -1 save, melee, parry) but even a knife or a club were different weapons.

People will grumble about close combat taking a long time, but damnit it was so much more epic than today.

It worked like this: roll dice = to your attack profile, add +1 for 2 CCW and 1 for charging. Add the highest roll to your weapon skill. Opponent does likewise and you compare scores, the higher score gets the difference in hits against their enemy. Initiative is only counted for a tie. You add +1 to your score for every 6 you roll after the first, and -1 for every 1 you roll. If you have a weapon with the parry rule (every sword has this rule) then you can force your opponent to re-roll 1 of their dice (unless they also have a weapon with parry).

Sufficed to say, someone with high WS was a badass in CC.

9+ vs lascannons, they had a -6 modifier :

 More Dakka wrote:
Nothing outright ignored armor.

Well, except for Vortex or Stasis grenades. Or Pulsa Rokkits. Or the Shock Attack Gun.

 More Dakka wrote:
I started in 2nd edition, it was awesome.

Everyone talks about how to make Terminators good these days, well in 2nd they were.

3+ save on 2D6 (and weapons modified armor) but worst case you were looking at a 7+ even against las and melta. Nothing outright ignored armor.

Oh also they hit on a 1+ (WS5 and a targeter stock) so even with modified to hit you were looking at 2's. Not to mention storm bolters could get up to 4 shots a turn. Powerfists were amazing as well.

All the close combat weapons were good and had stats and such, like, beyond a chainsword (S4 -1 save, melee, parry) but even a knife or a club were different weapons.

People will grumble about close combat taking a long time, but damnit it was so much more epic than today.

It worked like this: roll dice = to your attack profile, add +1 for 2 CCW and 1 for charging. Add the highest roll to your weapon skill. Opponent does likewise and you compare scores, the higher score gets the difference in hits against their enemy. Initiative is only counted for a tie. You add +1 to your score for every 6 you roll after the first, and -1 for every 1 you roll. If you have a weapon with the parry rule (every sword has this rule) then you can force your opponent to re-roll 1 of their dice (unless they also have a weapon with parry).

Sufficed to say, someone with high WS was a badass in CC.

But terminators were still bad in 2nd, unless they were Chaos. So 2D6 3+ still was not a good mechanism. Armor save modifiers made them die like slime.

For those of us who played against Pulsa Rokkit spam, 150 hormagaunts, Eldar insta-death circus, and CSM table-you-the-first-turn Noise marines, 2nd ed was a hellscape.

Pulsa rocket spam was bonkers tbh.

Martel732 wrote:


But terminators were still bad in 2nd, unless they were Chaos. So 2D6 3+ still was not a good mechanism. Armor save modifiers made them die like slime.

Hrm, Even with a -3 modifier (like on an Autocannon) they were saving as often as they were now. Against a Bolter or a Shuriken weapon, they were definitely more survivable than they are now. Given how many weapons also had different modifiers from what their AP values ended up being, stuff like Plasma Guns and Multi-metlas were much less dangerous to Terminators back then they are today. And that's not even taking to-hit modifiers into account.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


But terminators were still bad in 2nd, unless they were Chaos. So 2D6 3+ still was not a good mechanism. Armor save modifiers made them die like slime.

Hrm, Even with a -3 modifier (like on an Autocannon) they were saving as often as they were now. Against a Bolter or a Shuriken weapon, they were definitely more survivable than they are now. Given how many weapons also had different modifiers from what their AP values ended up being, stuff like Plasma Guns and Multi-metlas were much less dangerous to Terminators back then they are today. And that's not even taking to-hit modifiers into account.

That may be true, but their armaments sucked terribly for the loyalists. Their weapons all rolled the jam dice! Terrible. And don't forget krak missiles used to be -6 armor save, and so dark reapers and devastators would light these guys up. Chaos terminators with reaper autocannon and blast masters, on the other hand, ruled.

Lol, krak missiles have sucked now for what, 18 years?

Terminators weren't the only unit to suffer potential jams however, Shuriken Catapults could do so to as could many other weapons.

Sure, Krak Missiles had a -6 modifier, but we're talking dedicated heavy weapons units doing the dedicated heavy weapons thing, as opposed to every unit having multiple weapons that could mostly ignore a Terminator's save.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Terminators weren't the only unit to suffer potential jams however, Shuriken Catapults could do so to as could many other weapons.

Sure, Krak Missiles had a -6 modifier, but we're talking dedicated heavy weapons units doing the dedicated heavy weapons thing, as opposed to every unit having multiple weapons that could mostly ignore a Terminator's save.

But terminators were so costly and so little dakka that they were still awful. And genestealers absolutely raped them in HTH. Heck, even hormagaunts could tie them up FOREVER.

The whole attacks in D6 + WS thing was stupid, because it made WS a godly stat. Now the current WS chart is also stupid, but I'll take the scenario where I can at least punch back.

I miss 10 wound carnifexes that could regenerate wounds faster than you could deal them. And genestealers.. oh my yes. They were what the are actually supposed to be. Now i'm sad.

2nd ed was miserable because Astartes were embarassingly bad. They were basically the worst list in the game. I guess unless your opponent had a virus grenade. Then IG was the worst.

 More Dakka wrote:

Oh also they hit on a 1+ (WS5 and a targeter stock) so even with modified to hit you were looking at 2's. Not to mention storm bolters could get up to 4 shots a turn.

Nothing hit on a 1+ ever. 1 was always a miss no matter your BS or WS.

Also, storm bolters had 1 die of sustained fire. So either you could say they had up to 3 hits per turn one 1 shot, or 6 hits per turn on 2 shots (for certain colors of marine). 4 never enters into that discussion.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:

Oh also they hit on a 1+ (WS5 and a targeter stock) so even with modified to hit you were looking at 2's. Not to mention storm bolters could get up to 4 shots a turn.

Nothing hit on a 1+ ever. 1 was always a miss no matter your BS or WS.

Also, storm bolters had 1 die of sustained fire. So either you could say they had up to 3 hits per turn one 1 shot, or 6 hits per turn on 2 shots (for certain colors of marine). 4 never enters into that discussion.

Some people played 2nd ed that the sustained fire die was above and beyond the initial hit of the gun. 3+1=4.

I used to run DA back in 2nd ed...halcyon years!
Of course they got continually destroyed by my mates super cheesy OP space wolves...I distinctly remember squads of 5 SW termies with assault cannons, cyclone missile launchers and power fists...on each model! They put out the hurt.

We ended up banning vortex grenades...I used to run a tooled up captain with a jump pack displacer field and vortex grenade (as did my ultramarine mate) and it always devolved into a race to jump in and vortex each other, was funny but boring. We also nerfed psychic powers iirc I think we thought they were too op, or maybe it was just Njarl Stormcaller constantly trolling us.

I really did like the terminator armour's mechanic back then...The initial concept for their design was to protect peeps working inside/near plasma reactors ffs, now a plasma gun just wrecks them.

Martel732 wrote:

Some people played 2nd ed that the sustained fire die was above and beyond the initial hit of the gun. 3+1=4.

Then they were playing it wrong...

 mekugi wrote:
We ended up banning vortex grenades...I used to run a tooled up captain with a jump pack displacer field and vortex grenade (as did my ultramarine mate) and it always devolved into a race to jump in and vortex each other, was funny but boring.

The group I was playing with didn't bother banning them... their use sort of dried up on its own when people started taking Vortex Detonators.

We also nerfed psychic powers iirc I think we thought they were too op, or maybe it was just Njarl Stormcaller constantly trolling us.

It was fairly common towards the end of 2nd edition to just drop the psychic phase entirely.

Personally, I loved the psychics in 2nd edition, other than the random draw for powers.

 insaniak wrote:

Personally, I loved the psychics in 2nd edition, other than the random draw for powers.

And the warp charge deck, too, for actually casting your powers.

Yeah, 2nd Edition has some crazy things. You could have more than one save, as long as they were different types of saves, so one character could potentially have: armor save, dodge save, field save, and psychic save.

I miss the strategy cards. In one game I drew the one that lets you give a random wargear card to a character, so I had an Inquisitor with Ork telescopic legs (extra 2" movement, woot).