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Plumbumbarum wrote:
They must still be in shock looking at sales.

From what I've heard anecdotally, they are - just not in the direction you think.
But we won't know anything for certain until the January report.
However...
The poll in this thread indicates that roughly for every one reporting AoS is done, there's two saying it is.
Given the general internet phenomenon of negativity being far more prevalent than positivity, I take that as a rough indication of an even keel.
The thread on spending - again, internet poll so... - a third of respondents have spent over $250, and although half say they've spent nothing, from the comments this includes a large proportion of people who are in the 'AoS is dead' camp.

I've certainly found that in the UK on a few occasions when ordering stuff for my Stormcast I've had to backorder because stock has sold out on the sites II normally buy from.

So if I had to bet, I'd put money on the January report indicating that AoS hasn't sold like One Direction tickets, but it will have sold well, and that even the non-AoS specific products from the WFB line have picked up as well - but there will have been regional variations in this.

But like I said - we can't assume anything until January.

RoperPG wrote:
But like I said - we can't assume anything until January.

Actually I would go farther than that, really. I'd point to the next yearly report, as even January will be too early to actually notice anything on the numbers.

The most we can get out of the January report will be a faint whiff of where the wind's blowing from the language they use. But even that will be mostly inconclusive.

It flat lined about a month ago at my primary play location, and now at the other place it is dying out as well. They had about 15 guys now its down to about 5 or 6 diehards.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

RoperPG wrote:
But like I said - we can't assume anything until January.

Actually I would go farther than that, really. I'd point to the next yearly report, as even January will be too early to actually notice anything on the numbers.

The most we can get out of the January report will be a faint whiff of where the wind's blowing from the language they use. But even that will be mostly inconclusive.

I agree with you two.

I believe the starter set will have sold quite well, and the first round of terrain and Sigmarine kits, due to excitement for their newness and perceived value for money of the starter box. However the real test of the system is how well it will sustain and grow over the next few years.

GW need AoS to replace WHFB, surpass its sales in revenue terms, and get big enough to compensate for the fall in 40K revenue. That's a lot to ask of the game and it cannot happen overnight. Things like the Schools' League are part of the plan, but obviously will take at least a year to show any results.

Apart from anything, GW's reports are good at concealing what is going on in detail, so we will only know if sales are up, down or level, not what is selling or where, or to whom.

If AoS sales are poor, they'll certainly be well masked in the January report by people buying up WHFB to complete their armies (it'll still be counted as AoS at this point). Since spending seemed to stop completely in the 6 month run up the figures might actually look pretty good.

Unless 40K has started to tank too.

I think 40K started to tank several years ago.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think 40K started to tank several years ago.

Indeed. The big question/scrutiny driver these past couple of years has always been "how bad is it?"

RoperPG wrote:
The poll in this thread indicates that roughly for every one reporting AoS is done, there's two saying it is.

I think you meant to say 1 to 3... the poll has been about 75% "dying out" to 25% "going strong" for some time (today it's showing as 74% to 26%).

Honestly, to look at that poll and say "even keel"... the numbers are going to speak for themselves in the end. No one is playing this game locally, and GW haven't done much to help with adoption. They may have had a misconception about why things like The Hobbit flopped... they mentioned a number of times focusing on their own IP instead. But this IP is extremely weak and tenuous compared to the Old World, and they're in real danger of not getting enough critical mass for the game to sustain itself.

I'm sure they'll keep on selling it - it's costing them little to do so at the moment. But in the end they'll have lost a bunch of market share, even though their costs and number of boxes will be much lower. It fits with their strategies, but the idea that they were going to see long-term sales volume / revenue growth out of this was madness, imo...

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think 40K started to tank several years ago.

Indeed. The big question/scrutiny driver these past couple of years has always been "how bad is it?"

Don't think it's too off topic to say this again:

I for one look forward to "Age of Horus"

Despite the emorkticon, I'm being totally serious. AoH (or whatever it ends up being called) would legit get me back to playing 40k, a game I used to love and - ironically! - got into with 3E because it was so much simpler than Fantasy I just miss me some dice-fueled GrimDark SciFantasy carnage, that didn't involve a ton of thinking

- Salvage

I would play Age of Horus. I've got heaps of 40K models that are unused since I gave up 40K because it got too complicated and expensive.

However if GW release Age of Horus it will be them jumping the shark.

The latest White Dwarf had a Tau scenario of 5 Stealth Suits and one Ghostkeel vs 6 "units".

I.e anything from 6 units of Grots to 6 Warlord Titans.

Age of Horus is already on its way ;-)

My stores currently running a 10 player AoS campaign using the Azyr Comp rules. It's going strong around here. That said, if we played the game rules as written I don't think it could be playable. Since day one we've been trying to balance the game until finally arriving as Azyr Comp.

My question is this, I hear alot of hobby stores stopping their sales of GW/AoS supplies and moving to other hobbies.

Is this permanent or would a renewed AoS popularity(due to more races, rule add-ons, etc.) cause them to put it back on their shelves?

I don't know how things like that work so I'm wondering if AoS gains more steam from lots of new releases will the stores that quit it be allowed to sale it again?

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I think 40K started to tank several years ago.

This. 40k is way too bulky and complicated. It's overloaded with special rules for everything and everyone and it's just a hassle to deal with. Glad we're back to 4th / 5th.

Baron Klatz wrote:
My question is this, I hear alot of hobby stores stopping their sales of GW/AoS supplies and moving to other hobbies.

Is this permanent or would a renewed AoS popularity(due to more races, rule add-ons, etc.) cause them to put it back on their shelves?

I don't know how things like that work so I'm wondering if AoS gains more steam from lots of new releases will the stores that quit it be allowed to sale it again?

The Australian perspective on this (or at least mine) is that no, they would not unless AoS became the most popular game on the market.

Stores here are cutting ties with GW because they have always been outright y trade partners who treat FLGSs like dirt (worse actually, they seem to think of them as the enemy who are devaluing their product by not providing the same excellent 'GW experience' that 1 man stores supposedly do).

We are now at a point where stores are surviving on non-GW games and are happy about that. Our largest FLGS in the southern hemisphere, as I probably mentioned earlier in this thread, posts pics of literal pallets of stock arriving from PP, CB, FFG and the likes, but hasn't mentioned GW in over a year (even though they still sell it).

A few places, like my preferred FLGS, are still technically GW trade partners and revive the 2 mandatory boxes of the latest release every week, which then get stuffed in a corner somewhere. Those stores would easily order in AoS stuff if people asked for it, but it would have to become significantly more popular than Warmahordes and X wing for the stores that closed their trade accounts to risk reopening them.

It also doesn't help that GW recently got a set of new trade terms past our government oversight board allowing them to discriminate against stores they don't like and simply set the trade price you can buy stock for. One of our most popular garage discounters who's entire business is selling GW products had to drop from a flat 25% off to a 21.5% discount when those terms went into effect. The other day he announced he is now stocking X wing.

 Bottle wrote:
The latest White Dwarf had a Tau scenario of 5 Stealth Suits and one Ghostkeel vs 6 "units".

I.e anything from 6 units of Grots to 6 Warlord Titans.

Age of Horus is already on its way ;-)

I think only a will deny this

The only unknown now is the degree of simplification. Bring back 3rd/4th ed levels and I'll be happy.

Baron Klatz wrote:

Is this permanent or would a renewed AoS popularity(due to more races, rule add-ons, etc.) cause them to put it back on their shelves?

I think some of them will continue to order it in on request, but many will have been too badly burnt by the whole thing to want to return to a standard model. GW are generally regarded as an awful company to work with, and with the boom of other games the main reason for stocking GW (that it was the biggest seller and therefore essentially mandatory if you want to stay open) is going away.

Wow well I used to post regularly both here and over at warseer solely offering list feedback and encouraging new players to take up WHFB. Basically doing the job of GW's marketing department. Didn't really enjoy 40k as I didn't see it as balanced as 8th. Feel pretty stupid now for not only wasting my time doing this but for also sinking in so much money into a game system that has lost it's true identity. So imagine the anger I felt when this sh!tbomb of a game they call age of sigmar dropped. After giving it an honest chance, I don't care what you say free rules or not the game sucks.

I understand maybe better than most that 8th was in trouble because while it offered a dynamic and robust ruleset, the cost of entry was way too high. I'll never understand why they didn't follow their own business model with 40k and pull old rules back into the game from earlier editions like 7th, 6th, etc. and simultaneously release a ruleset that allowed for smaller skirmish sized games to be played. That way they could have brought in new blood (as vets wouldn't have been caught taking a giant dump all over the game everytime the name was even mentioned) and it wouldn't have been as intimidating for a newcomer to see a 3000 pt game if they could buy a box, and build up slowly to that level. No one will ever be able to convince me that had GW done this, they would have sold the gak out of it and could have called it whatever they wanted to for copyright purposes.

Tomorrow I'll play in my last 8th edition tournament with my beloved dark Aelfs (really?). Bittersweet but I guess it's on to KoW like everyone else is doing.

Its alright Nathan. I've found the KoW community super inviting and welcoming, as it has a bit of the abused-wives-club, kind of vibe. A LOT of the local KoW players religiously play with 100% GW models (usually lovingly painted)... Its no secret where they came from.

I am indifferent to Age of Sigmar, and see no merit in poo-pooing something someone else might enjoy, but it is no secret that a lot of long-time fans felt personally wounded seeing their game and armies essentially abandoned.

January report wont show a thing. Horus heresy set will save their Jan report and beyond probably.

Still same in my area, hugely popular and you can get in a game or three each day. I've not played much recently as I got back into infinity but its still there

 Motograter wrote:
January report wont show a thing. Horus heresy set will save their Jan report and beyond probably.

Still same in my area, hugely popular and you can get in a game or three each day. I've not played much recently as I got back into infinity but its still there

Sure. Now, where's my plastic Lord of Change.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Motograter wrote:
January report wont show a thing. Horus heresy set will save their Jan report and beyond probably.

Still same in my area, hugely popular and you can get in a game or three each day. I've not played much recently as I got back into infinity but its still there

Sure. Now, where's my plastic Lord of Change.

Considering he's from the UK, I can actually believe him. Most UK players seem happy to eat up whatever GW throws at them.

The ones that are left, perhaps. Many UK players have dumped GW in the past few years, the sales figures prove it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The ones that are left, perhaps. Many UK players have dumped GW in the past few years, the sales figures prove it.

I stand corrected

Ded. It was pretty much dead before AoS started. AoS just made those last few ragequit and convert to Saga/KoW/WM/H/Infinity.

We tried to be positive, get a few games, but it all went down to just one game and total silence for roughly 2 months now.

I went down to a game store further south than I usually go and asked the guy at the counter. He said no one plays it there. That's three FLGS's in my area where it's non-existant.

Well I feel bad for the people who invested so much into fantasy to see it die like this. I don't think much more needs to be said and judging by how long this thread has stayed at the top with no self bumpa confirms what I thought.

Ded game. Hopefully the shareholders revolt and force a sale because my faith in GW is officially spent.

If people want cooperative narrative gaming with better miniatures, play Kingdom of Death. That game is mind blowing. (A bit pricey though....just a bit) But in terms of narrative story telling, yeah, that game is so far above anything AOS can ever hope to do. And the minis.....wow.

 MWHistorian wrote:
If people want cooperative narrative gaming with better miniatures, play Kingdom of Death. That game is mind blowing. (A bit pricey though....just a bit) But in terms of narrative story telling, yeah, that game is so far above anything AOS can ever hope to do. And the minis.....wow.

it is not as simple as that, though...
a lot of the attraction to a particular game and line of miniatures is the aesthetic and setting...
if a person is put off by the look, and KD's look is quite shocking to a lot of people, then the gameplay will probably not be enough to overlook the designs of the miniatures...
the $400 retail price tag of the basic game may put a few people of, as well...

saying "better miniatures" is a very subjective thing...
sculpting styles and aesthetic vary between each company, but for HIPS sprue casting quality, there is no variation between the top contenders, i.e. GW, KD, Wyrd, and Dreamforge...
they are all beautifully cast sprues...
the only real difference is true scale sculpting vs. heroic scale sculpting, aesthetic, and price...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
If people want cooperative narrative gaming with better miniatures, play Kingdom of Death. That game is mind blowing. (A bit pricey though....just a bit) But in terms of narrative story telling, yeah, that game is so far above anything AOS can ever hope to do. And the minis.....wow.

it is not as simple as that, though...
a lot of the attraction to a particular game and line of miniatures is the aesthetic and setting...
if a person is put off by the look, and KD's look is quite shocking to a lot of people, then the gameplay will probably not be enough to overlook the designs of the miniatures...
the $400 retail price tag of the basic game may put a few people of, as well...

saying "better miniatures" is a very subjective thing...
sculpting styles and aesthetic vary between each company, but for HIPS sprue casting quality, there is no variation between the top contenders, i.e. GW, KD, Wyrd, and Dreamforge...
they are all beautifully cast sprues...
the only real difference is true scale sculpting vs. heroic scale sculpting, aesthetic, and price...

cheers
jah

No, I'll stand behind what I said. KOD's minis are higher quality. (which is what I meant by "better," sorry.)
Now that might mean nothing if the aesthetics aren't to your liking, but in terms of detail, originality and craftsmanship, yeah, they're much better than what GW can do.

And the "narrative" and cooperative aspects are much much stronger in that game.

But also, my post wasn't meant to be taken too seriously.