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I really want to do a Storm Trooper army, but GeeDubya replaced them with those ridiculous looking final fantasy space knights they call Scions

What I'm wondering is if the old stormtrooper models are still considered canon, or better yet, will it be fluffy if I made a scion unit that does not wear any of their space knight armor but dress more like actual Special Operations units in Afghanistan?

Also I heard something about Scions being a seperate unit from stormtroopers or something like that is that true?

Like

I personally love the new models over the old, I currently proudly sport MT as my primary army, but I also loved the old models and the Karskin, so i can see how you'd prefer them ^^;

Short Answers, Old stormtrooper models are not standard issue, though im sure those armour patterns are used. You can easily make a justification for a differing pattern, Either based on a particular Schola Progenium or Schola Tempestus

So basically, I can't speak for the old fluff, but I can shed some light on the new fluff.

All Scions come for a Schola Progenium and are later sent to a Schola Tempestus, which is basically the most depressing summer camp ever. These are large cathedral like structures thinly scattered throughout the Imperium. They largely take in the orphans of war heroes along with anyone who shows potential for greatness. From there tose with unbridled faith go on to become Adeptas Sororitas or Adeptus Arbites, but the most skilled are chosen for the Schola Tempestus (Scions) or the Schola Perfectus(Commissars).

Schola Progenium have Trials of Compliance where if they fail they are are sent to the regular AM or perhaps are forced to become mindless thralls. The trials are varried so your Schola could involve the desert for its trials, an example would be given drugs and sent into a labyrinth and expected to follow orders that would result in the soldiers perceived death.

You could easily have a Schola Tempestus that only recieved cadets from such a Schola Progenium, Or you could simply have the particular Schola Tempestus operate in the desert, or get their weapons and Armour form a particular forgeworld. The standard Issue Tempestus hotshot weapons are from ForgeWorld Ryza as their name implies Ryza Pattern Hotshot lasgun. So you could simply use another forgeworlds pattern.

One thing that I did for my guys was swap a few torsos for regular guardsmen, and it looked pretty good. was easy too, just had to clip one piece of the sholder pads. Gave that unit a completely different vibe

Hope this helps ^^

Those models, without notable armour, are much more in line with regular Guardsmen, or Veterans. Flak armour is lighter than Carapace. Those models would not look appropriately armoured for Scions.

There's also not a lot of reason to take a MT army, when you can build something "better" with the AM codex. And even then, the AM codex is pretty low tier.

My suggestion would be, to try building a MT army. Then, build an AM army, using a pair of Carapace Vets for your Troops, and a CCS with Carapace for your HQ. Use as many Scions in the Elite slots as you like, they have a Platoon-like structure.

Then, take other units, like Battle Tanks, Vendettas, Wyverns, and Sentinels to support your Scions. See which plays better. You can still take a solid 50 Scions in an AM list, if they suit your fancy, and then spend points on useful things to support them.

Someone should make some conversions so they all look like starwars storm troopers 7+ to hit 2+ to wound.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Those models, without notable armour, are much more in line with regular Guardsmen, or Veterans. Flak armour is lighter than Carapace. Those models would not look appropriately armoured for Scions.

There's also not a lot of reason to take a MT army, when you can build something "better" with the AM codex. And even then, the AM codex is pretty low tier.

My suggestion would be, to try building a MT army. Then, build an AM army, using a pair of Carapace Vets for your Troops, and a CCS with Carapace for your HQ. Use as many Scions in the Elite slots as you like, they have a Platoon-like structure.

Then, take other units, like Battle Tanks, Vendettas, Wyverns, and Sentinels to support your Scions. See which plays better. You can still take a solid 50 Scions in an AM list, if they suit your fancy, and then spend points on useful things to support them.

Uhh I didn't ask about army list building as I don't care about winning, I want to know more about the lore to build my army

And as for the models, I will be using them as stormtroopers, if my opponent doesn't want to play against an army that looks better than any non FW model GW has ever made, then thats on them

Plus I don't plan to take any heavy armored vehicles as they take away from the special forces feel, you might as well take Chaos allies with your grey knights

 Ubl1k wrote:
Someone should make some conversions so they all look like starwars storm troopers 7+ to hit 2+ to wound.

Or you could just use wizards of the coast's stormtroopers.

I have a bunch of kasrkin models, which I agree look so much more spec-ops ish than the new gothic poop. I hate painting metal tho, and the idea that in my 8 man squad I have 2 lots of identical twins grates on me. Im gonna sell em and get a box of the new scions, then replace their torsos with normal cadian ones (some waist modification required) and cut off some of the little trimming bits on the shoulder pads. Then I was gonna get some booney hat heads from puppetswar or even just scout sniper heads with night vision goggles. Think that should be pretty good for non-gothic looking poseable stormtroopers. The other option is forgeworld Death Korps of Kreig Grenadiers, who have hellguns and skull gas masks. Theyre beautiful models, and with different heads could fit with any IG army, but theyd still have the greatcoat look, which doesn't scream modern spec ops to me.

The "Old Stormtroopers" were Kasrkin rebranded - Kasrkin being the elite spec ops unit of the Cadian regiments, and not 'Stormtroopers' in the 40k sense at all.

I see absolutely no problem with someone continuing to use Kasrkin as Stormies. Their equipment was almost identical anyway, and the Kasrkin are pretty badass fluff-wise themselves.

My Scion army has every model variation of Stormtroopers and their equivalent. I fluffed it as a company made out of depleted companies who also pick up elite guardsmen that are were left behind due to the Imperium being the Imperium. They're then given extra training and stormtrooper gear if needed.

BobtheConquistador wrote:
And as for the models, I will be using them as stormtroopers, if my opponent doesn't want to play against an army that looks better than any non FW model GW has ever made, then thats on them

Well that pretty much settles it. You want to use them as Stormtroopers, your call. I would say that they look far too lightly armoured to warrant that 4+ save, so I'd rather see them used as Veterans instead and go for something more akin to riot gear or very heavy looking armour for the stormtroopers.

Also, with the second part of the quote, that's all a matter of opinion. Aye, they are nice models, but not for representing carapace armoured stormtroopers. As such, much as you have a right to use them, I have a right to decline.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

BobtheConquistador wrote:
And as for the models, I will be using them as stormtroopers, if my opponent doesn't want to play against an army that looks better than any non FW model GW has ever made, then thats on them

Well that pretty much settles it. You want to use them as Stormtroopers, your call. I would say that they look far too lightly armoured to warrant that 4+ save, so I'd rather see them used as Veterans instead and go for something more akin to riot gear or very heavy looking armour for the stormtroopers.

Also, with the second part of the quote, that's all a matter of opinion. Aye, they are nice models, but not for representing carapace armoured stormtroopers. As such, much as you have a right to use them, I have a right to decline.

and I said in my post that's on you if you don't want to play there's plenty of people who would be happy to play against a unique looking army without being a complete rules lawyer

Well, that surely put me in my place.

I'm not trying to rules lawyer. So long as your models are all "counts-as" and similarly armoured, then you can fluff any reason at all that they'd have a better armour save, despite having less armour than their Cadian counterparts. Maybe they have force fields tucked into their boots?

You asked if it would be "fluffy". The answer is no. The "fluffy" storm troopers wear heavy armour. Heavy by non-augmented human standards, anyhow. Veterans with Camo Cloaks would be a fluffy representation, if you want them to be bad-asses with higher than standard survivability and no particular armour to note. Those models look nothing like storm troopers. They have no connection to any fluff that I'm aware of, that would make them like Scions.

The only reason I suggested something along the lines of the IG range is that you could properly play an Afganistan-era force, and the rules are less gakky than the rules in the MT codex. If you just want to paint minis, and don't care about winning, then it won't matter which codex you use. If you someday decide that you want to have a vague chance of winning, you'll probably switch to the AM codex anyhow. Just trying to save you a handful of dollars by suggesting the obviously superior codex.

So please, your majesty, have pity upon a poor serf, that thought to point out something that an average gamer might be interested in. Please, forgive me. I beg you.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, that surely put me in my place.

I'm not trying to rules lawyer. So long as your models are all "counts-as" and similarly armoured, then you can fluff any reason at all that they'd have a better armour save, despite having less armour than their Cadian counterparts. Maybe they have force fields tucked into their boots?

You asked if it would be "fluffy". The answer is no. The "fluffy" storm troopers wear heavy armour. Heavy by non-augmented human standards, anyhow. Veterans with Camo Cloaks would be a fluffy representation, if you want them to be bad-asses with higher than standard survivability and no particular armour to note. Those models look nothing like storm troopers. They have no connection to any fluff that I'm aware of, that would make them like Scions.

The only reason I suggested something along the lines of the IG range is that you could properly play an Afganistan-era force, and the rules are less gakky than the rules in the MT codex. If you just want to paint minis, and don't care about winning, then it won't matter which codex you use. If you someday decide that you want to have a vague chance of winning, you'll probably switch to the AM codex anyhow. Just trying to save you a handful of dollars by suggesting the obviously superior codex.

So please, your majesty, have pity upon a poor serf, that thought to point out something that an average gamer might be interested in. Please, forgive me. I beg you.

Sorry if I sounded abrasive, I was in bit of a bad mood and I get realy irritable when people don't answer my question

But my reasoning behind the fact they aren't wearing armour is because the missions do not call for it as they would need to blend in with the local civilian populace

hell in the old stormtrooper models they aren't that well armored either

The original Storm Troopers:



Which look far better than the models in the OP, incidentally.

BobtheConquistador wrote:


But my reasoning behind the fact they aren't wearing armour is because the missions do not call for it as they would need to blend in with the local civilian populace

hell in the old stormtrooper models they aren't that well armored either

And they'd make perfectly reasonable Vets with Flak. The point is, that if your Scions don't need heavy armour, they're Vets, not Scions. If I recall correctly, "Forward Sentries" gives you camo cloaks and defensive grenades, but I might be a codex out-of-date. That would probably be more appropriate to your army idea.

Scions are shock troops, a kind of poor-man's Marine. Scions are sent into desperate situations, where that heavy armour is expected to keep them alive long enough to get the job done. They can be sneaky, but once their cover is blown, they've got more than a thick t-shirt to keep them alive. The models in the OP don't have that, so don't give a "fluffy" reason to justify a 4+ save. Nor the Hot-Shot-ness of their guns. They're just not very reflective of the unit in question, any more than a Space Marine looks appropriate to represent a standard Guardsman.

Now that I think about it, I agree, perhaps the MT is not the best, rulewise or fluffwise

I will instead go with Imperial Armour 4, but now I need alternative lore

Any ideas? I want to be a sort of Green Bret esque army, perhaps to fit with the lore, maybe take AM platoon to represent the local populace that they trained as Green berets do

BobtheConquistador wrote:


hell in the old stormtrooper models they aren't that well armored either

Back then they had normal flak armor and str 4 lasguns.

I'm not particularly familiar with real-world militaries. I prefer my violence to be imaginary. Real bullet holes look as though they'd hurt like hell.

My local has no interest in IA, so I don't know where that goes.

However, you might want to look at Catachans for inspiration. Classically, they didn't use flak armour, just a flak vest [they had a 6+ save, at one time] and had access to all kinds of jungle-craft abilities. You could probably hook a note and replace that idea with soldiers raised in a barren area. You could also look at the Tallarn, [spelling?] as they're a desert raiding force.

Hope that helps.

BobtheConquistador wrote:
I really want to do a Storm Trooper army, but GeeDubya replaced them with those ridiculous looking final fantasy space knights they call Scions

What I'm wondering is if the old stormtrooper models are still considered canon, or better yet, will it be fluffy if I made a scion unit that does not wear any of their space knight armor but dress more like actual Special Operations units in Afghanistan?

Also I heard something about Scions being a seperate unit from stormtroopers or something like that is that true?

Like

Those are cool looking. I've never met anyone who really cared about a proxy army as long as it was clear what was what, or you were fine with being asked repeatedly what things were. Paint them up nice and if anyone gives you the stink eye, they probably wouldn't have been fun to play with anyway.

edit: madrobot has some neat stuff. I like the ones with the boonie hats.

BobtheConquistador wrote:
I really want to do a Storm Trooper army, but GeeDubya replaced them with those ridiculous looking final fantasy space knights they call Scions

What I'm wondering is if the old stormtrooper models are still considered canon, or better yet, will it be fluffy if I made a scion unit that does not wear any of their space knight armor but dress more like actual Special Operations units in Afghanistan?

Also I heard something about Scions being a seperate unit from stormtroopers or something like that is that true?

Like

As somebody has said maybe a few thousand times already: these would look better as veterans with flak armour.
You also said something about those models looking better than anything else that GW has released? Well, they're not. Not at all.

I run a mixed force of models. it makes sense in my mind, you know imperial special forces probably have some say in gear to make them more effective so whats stopping them from changing things up.

123ply wrote:

BobtheConquistador wrote:
I really want to do a Storm Trooper army, but GeeDubya replaced them with those ridiculous looking final fantasy space knights they call Scions

What I'm wondering is if the old stormtrooper models are still considered canon, or better yet, will it be fluffy if I made a scion unit that does not wear any of their space knight armor but dress more like actual Special Operations units in Afghanistan?

Also I heard something about Scions being a seperate unit from stormtroopers or something like that is that true?

Like

As somebody has said maybe a few thousand times already: these would look better as veterans with flak armour.
You also said something about those models looking better than anything else that GW has released? Well, they're not. Not at all.

but they do look better unless your word is the final authority on everything

also you if you read my other post I agreed that I would instead use the imperial armour 4 elysian rules instead

They look derpy with their giant chins, and their completely smooth bandannas look like they're meant to be attached to something like a necron's shoulder joint.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They look derpy with their giant chins, and their completely smooth bandannas look like they're meant to be attached to something like a necron's shoulder joint.

because the completely smooth "banadanas" are backwards worn caps and the chins look normal for 28mm heroic scale

They still don't particularly fit with the 40k aesthetic in the way the new Scion models do.

Again, you berate Furyou and say he's wrong

unless your word is the final authority on everything

and then you just come out and say

but they do look better

.

Hypocritical much?

BobtheConquistador wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They look derpy with their giant chins, and their completely smooth bandannas look like they're meant to be attached to something like a necron's shoulder joint.

because the completely smooth "banadanas" are backwards worn caps and the chins look normal for 28mm heroic scale

Well, fine. Their completely smooth backwards worn caps (what are they, sk8terboys?) look like the ball part of ball and socket joints instead of actually being hats.

I mean, they look like someone took a mixing bowl, coated the inside of it with grey plastic, then tipped it out.