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spencetacular wrote:
Add in another loss, I'm now 1-10

Top of First - Carnifex 3x came rushing in, blew up 1 ghost ark with explosion, 1 inch around, taking out a warrior and an immortal. 1 stalker with explosion, 22 hits on explode, 3 warriors fall. 3 wounds on 2nd ark, with jink saves.
Bottom of first - 80 Gauss shots at 1 carnifex. 16 hits. 4 wounds. all Saved. 4 hits, 3 wounds from Quad Cannon. All Saved. 3 staff of light shots from overlord. 1 wound, no save. stays flying.
Top of Second - 2nd ghost ark down, wrecked. Monstrous creature charges my 20 warriors. ap2 Str 10 - 5 attacks, hammer, charge bonus, and stomps. killed 9 warriors. failed leadership. failed initiative. Sweeping wiped out 11 warriors and an overlord. Conceded.

How is Necron even supposed to take on this Army?

Did your opponent turn his Carnifexes into Gargantuan Creatures or something? If you're playing normal 40k, everything about this is wrong. Are there homebrew rules you're not telling us about?

Carnifex 3x came rushing in, blew up 1 ghost ark with explosion - impossible. Just fething impossible.
1 inch around, taking out a warrior and an immortal. - this is almost physically impossible. I don't understand how this could even happen. Why would your immortals be that close to a Ghost Ark?
1 stalker with explosion, 22 hits on explode - the feth? Are you using apocalypse rules for normal vehicles or something?
3 warriors fall. 3 wounds on 2nd ark, with jink saves. - also impossible
80 Gauss shots at 1 carnifex. 16 hits. 4 wounds. all Saved - statistically unlikely. Bummer dude.
ap2 Str 10 - 5 attacks, hammer, charge bonus, and stomps - That's not even close to correct. If its getting 5 attacks, the charge bonus should be one of those. Furthermore, Stomps are not available to monstrous creatures. If you mean smash, that's DEFINITELY not how that works. It either halves your attacks for double strength (if you're still playing 6th) or you only get one smash attack in place of your other attacks. For a carnifex, smashing is 100% pointless.

You and your group needs to read the rules and play 40k, not whatever the hell it is you're playing.

spencetacular wrote:
Add in another loss, I'm now 1-10

Top of First - Carnifex 3x came rushing in, blew up 1 ghost ark with explosion, 1 inch around, taking out a warrior and an immortal. 1 stalker with explosion, 22 hits on explode, 3 warriors fall. 3 wounds on 2nd ark, with jink saves.

What rules are you playing by? Everything you've just said is either illegal or impossible.

spencetacular wrote:
Bottom of first - 80 Gauss shots at 1 carnifex. 16 hits. 4 wounds. all Saved. 4 hits, 3 wounds from Quad Cannon. All Saved. 3 staff of light shots from overlord. 1 wound, no save. stays flying.

Wait, the carnifex stays flying? How was it flying in the first place?

spencetacular wrote:

Top of Second - 2nd ghost ark down, wrecked. Monstrous creature charges my 20 warriors. ap2 Str 10 - 5 attacks, hammer, charge bonus, and stomps. killed 9 warriors. failed leadership. failed initiative. Sweeping wiped out 11 warriors and an overlord. Conceded.

Carnifexes don't have stomps. And, you said 5 attacks and charge bonus, but 5 attacks is already including the charge bonus. If they have any guns, then they're only getting 4 attacks on the charge.

spencetacular wrote:
How is Necron even supposed to take on this Army?

By reading the rulebook?

Not trying to be offensive here, but you seem to be criticising the system and yet not actually following any of the rules.

(Obviously you should play the rules properly first, and then criticise the system. )

Wait. what if he means three flyrants?

It still wouldn't explain how that explosion would then blow up a stalker.

Furthermore, if they were flying, then they couldn't have assaulted him on turn 2. And flyrants don't have stomps either.

Although we like to consider 40k a mature game with complex rules, its target audience is a young crowd. So lets calm down & take that into account in this problem.

It sounds like theres some confusion as to the rules AND the terminology. Perhaps they weren't Stomps, but were Impact Hits? I think when next you play try to have 3rd player with you. Someone to check the brb & the codexes too.

For those saying to go to your local GW. The nearest GW store is 56 miles away. In Canada. The nearest in the US is 66 miles away. Neither is plausible to go to.

Second, I was in the middle of my own game so did not see everything. I do know part of the Tyranid players list, which did not include any Fexes. It did however have a Barbed Heirodule and 3 Flyrants, most likely with EGrubs.

At least I don't recall there being any carnifexes.

I think you need to check with Mr. Tzu about your game strategies. You exhibit a very low amount of knowledge of your enemy.

You don't need to know all their fluff and such, but at the very least, ask about the stats of the things he has before you deploy. If you have a bad memory, write them down.
A flyrant for example shouldn't be able to hurt your ghost arks from the front or side without getting in range for his haywire flamer shot. (and even then one glance is hardly significant to an ark.)

Spend some time reading the core rules and a few of the codices that you commonly play against. Write some sample lists that you think would be good from them.

There are plenty of people that say there's no skill in 40k etc etc. That's all lies. Do some research, watch some batreps, watch some other games with those opponents and see what is beating them and how. You have a lot of room for improvement.

Yeah, it's not true that there's no skill in 40k. However, the primary skills for playing 40k (I'd say like 60% of the game) are list building and memorization of rules (after you brought the right units and you know the enemy's units, actually playing the game makes up the remainder: 30% target prioritization, 20% maneuver, and 10% exploiting technicalities in the rules - that tiny sliver at the end contains a lot of what people pass off as tactics in this game).

Anyway your army lists look reasonable, but you're clearly missing out on the other important skill, really knowing the rules. All kinds of things in your description made no sense. Your opponents are cheating, or else you're both playing wrong but most of the wrong interpretations are hurting you and not them.

Learn the mechanics of the game, learn what your units and their units can actually do. Then at least you won't be taken advantage of. Once you really know the rules, know your own army, and know your opponent's army, things like where to go and what to shoot start falling into place and I'm sure you'll do better.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A flyrant for example shouldn't be able to hurt your ghost arks from the front or side without getting in range for his haywire flamer shot. (and even then one glance is hardly significant to an ark.)

Warp Lance. S10 AP1 Lance so pen on a 3+. Vehicle explodes on a 4+. Even if it does not explode, the Ark is now AV11 and is open to killing from massed Devourers.

 Happyjew wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A flyrant for example shouldn't be able to hurt your ghost arks from the front or side without getting in range for his haywire flamer shot. (and even then one glance is hardly significant to an ark.)

Warp Lance. S10 AP1 Lance so pen on a 3+. Vehicle explodes on a 4+. Even if it does not explode, the Ark is now AV11 and is open to killing from massed Devourers.

Hardly. You'd have to get that penetration first, and then with Jink you're not even doing two HP of damage.
Also, you kinda have to roll Warp Lance.

Ok so I think what happy new is saying is correct. The thing hat took out the GA was probably the barbed Heirodule. And instead of 3 carnifexes he probably means 3 flying hive tyrants, which is why it was nearly impossible to hit them.

There are other issues, naturally, which is why I think you should re-check the rules and have your opponents do the same. There are some serious differences between how you are playing the game and how it is meant to be played. And for all the griping that people do about game balance, it's much better than the version of the game that you're playing, which is why you're getting ROLFstomped.

Finally, a flying hive tyrant is about 230/240 points. 3 of those will run you just under 1200, and a barbed Heirodule is 565. So even if your opponent is completely unbound and those are the only 4 models in his army, he's 5 points over the limit no matter what he does.

Remember that your ghost ark has quantum shielding. It's AV 13 until it's penetrated, and it can also jink whenever it wants for a 4+ cover save if it's in hot water. The guns will only hit on 6's the next turn, but sometimes that's better than not firing at all. You know, because it's dead


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A flyrant for example shouldn't be able to hurt your ghost arks from the front or side without getting in range for his haywire flamer shot. (and even then one glance is hardly significant to an ark.)

Warp Lance. S10 AP1 Lance so pen on a 3+. Vehicle explodes on a 4+. Even if it does not explode, the Ark is now AV11 and is open to killing from massed Devourers.

Warp Lance is AP 2 now and WC 2. So broken


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And don't forget you have to roll to hit after you manifest the power

 Happyjew wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A flyrant for example shouldn't be able to hurt your ghost arks from the front or side without getting in range for his haywire flamer shot. (and even then one glance is hardly significant to an ark.)

Warp Lance. S10 AP1 Lance so pen on a 3+. Vehicle explodes on a 4+. Even if it does not explode, the Ark is now AV11 and is open to killing from massed Devourers.

lance doesn't work on quantum shield now since QS is a set modifier just like lance, so they both cause a conflict which means the rule in the necron codex wins out.

I've never seen anyone play it like that.

Oberron wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A flyrant for example shouldn't be able to hurt your ghost arks from the front or side without getting in range for his haywire flamer shot. (and even then one glance is hardly significant to an ark.)

Warp Lance. S10 AP1 Lance so pen on a 3+. Vehicle explodes on a 4+. Even if it does not explode, the Ark is now AV11 and is open to killing from massed Devourers.

lance doesn't work on quantum shield now since QS is a set modifier just like lance, so they both cause a conflict which means the rule in the necron codex wins out.

That sounds more than a little strange. I would never play it that way.

 luke1705 wrote:

Finally, a flying hive tyrant is about 230/240 points. 3 of those will run you just under 1200, and a barbed Heirodule is 565. So even if your opponent is completely unbound and those are the only 4 models in his army, he's 5 points over the limit no matter what he does.

That's some pretty impressively bad math. 240*3 is 720.

Three Tyrants are hard to kill, there's no doubt. A Gargantuan is as well. That will put a lot of hurt on your units, but it sounds like simple target priority needs to come first. Kill the Gargantuan first. S10 AP3 shots are beastly, and just survive and get to Objectives. Mysterious Objectives have a 1 in 6 chance to be Skyfire Nexus, and if you feel REALLY screwed by your opponent, ask for one Objective to be Skyfire Nexus for sure. They are taking a very strong list against what is apparently not a strong Necron list. Most players will concede a handicap. Just need one win to boost your confidence a bit. A single Skyfire Nexus means one unit has Skyfire, which isn't some crazy thing to give away for a Tyranid player. If they aren't really looking to slaughter, they should be okay with it for a game or two until you get a better grasp on what needs to die when.

So, focus on the Heirodule with Gauss until you get a Skyfire option, then kill the Flyrants with AP3. Necron have a fair amount of it, so it shouldn't be too bad. Another thing to consider is chasing that bugger with Wraiths using Transdimensional Beamers. Need to roll double 6s to kill it, but lack of Eternal Warrior is what us Tyranid players hate the most right now. Worst case, the Wraiths charge it if it gets Grounded. Best case, it's deleted. Middle case, a lot of shots go at some Wraiths instead of more important targets. Conoptek Harvest is a bonus, not a requirement. If the Spyder slows them down, no point. The Gloom Prism though would also help against Warp Blast.

Just a heads up. The final game is next week. We don't know points limit or mission yet (something special), but I do know OPs opponent is bringing all 6 Phoenix Lords and the Avatar of Khaine (1400 pts even). Depending on points he might also bring Yriel, Eldrad and Illic.

I thought there was 7 Phoenix Lords. I digress though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought there was 7 Phoenix Lords. I digress though.

6 in the codex with rules.
1 from Forgeworld with rules.
1 or 2 lost Phoenix Lords without rules.

Regardless, there's going to be little issue in killing the Phoenix Lords. If the OP doesn't win this game, then...I honestly don't know.

OK, so don't know mission yet but this is the exact list OP will be fighting against.

Asurmen - Supreme Warlord
Baharroth
Eldrad
Fuegan
Illic
Iryllith
Jain Zar
Karandras
Maugan Ra
The Avatar of Khaine.

1750 points, plus we get our Supreme Warlord (one HQ choice that gets +1 W, Eternal Warrior and two Warlord Traits for free) for the final mission.

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, so don't know mission yet but this is the exact list OP will be fighting against.

Asurmen - Supreme Warlord
Baharroth
Eldrad
Fuegan
Illic
Iryllith
Jain Zar
Karandras
Maugan Ra
The Avatar of Khaine.

1750 points, plus we get our Supreme Warlord (one HQ choice that gets +1 W, Eternal Warrior and two Warlord Traits for free) for the final mission.

Dear god. That'll be a fun game...

There's a lot of points into 2+ 3 wound models. Just focus fire on each one and kill them. Simple as that.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Finally, a flying hive tyrant is about 230/240 points. 3 of those will run you just under 1200, and a barbed Heirodule is 565. So even if your opponent is completely unbound and those are the only 4 models in his army, he's 5 points over the limit no matter what he does.

That's some pretty impressively bad math. 240*3 is 720.

Just bad sentence structure it turns out. I meant to include the Hierodule in my 1200 total. Even if the flyrants don't have EGrubs and total to only 690, that plus the Hierodule is still over 1200, which was the alleged points limit. That was my point

 luke1705 wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Finally, a flying hive tyrant is about 230/240 points. 3 of those will run you just under 1200, and a barbed Heirodule is 565. So even if your opponent is completely unbound and those are the only 4 models in his army, he's 5 points over the limit no matter what he does.

That's some pretty impressively bad math. 240*3 is 720.

Just bad sentence structure it turns out. I meant to include the Hierodule in my 1200 total. Even if the flyrants don't have EGrubs and total to only 690, that plus the Hierodule is still over 1200, which was the alleged points limit. That was my point

Not for the mission. Basic missions were 1250 Maelstrom, no LoW allowed. The mission played the other day was 2000 pts Big Guns Never Tire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 McNinja wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, so don't know mission yet but this is the exact list OP will be fighting against.

Asurmen - Supreme Warlord
Baharroth
Eldrad
Fuegan
Illic
Iryllith
Jain Zar
Karandras
Maugan Ra
The Avatar of Khaine.

1750 points, plus we get our Supreme Warlord (one HQ choice that gets +1 W, Eternal Warrior and two Warlord Traits for free) for the final mission.

Dear god. That'll be a fun game...

That's what I figured. Neither one of us has a chance at winning overall (If I win and everybody else combined loses, then I have a chance). So I figure screw it. I'm just going to bring every single Phoenix Lord and see what happens.

Quantum Shelding Vs. Lance

McNinja wrote:

Oberron wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A flyrant for example shouldn't be able to hurt your ghost arks from the front or side without getting in range for his haywire flamer shot. (and even then one glance is hardly significant to an ark.)

Warp Lance. S10 AP1 Lance so pen on a 3+. Vehicle explodes on a 4+. Even if it does not explode, the Ark is now AV11 and is open to killing from massed Devourers.

lance doesn't work on quantum shield now since QS is a set modifier just like lance, so they both cause a conflict which means the rule in the necron codex wins out.

That sounds more than a little strange. I would never play it that way.

vipoid wrote:I've never seen anyone play it like that.

That's how it works now based on the rules. But you are free to play with house rules if you like.

col_impact wrote:
Quantum Shelding Vs. Lance

Spoiler:

Lance- "count Vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

Quantum Shielding- "counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

Modifiers:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

Both are set values. Both are applied last, and in conflict because of it.

If in Conflict, the Advanced versus Basic rules clarify to use the codex rules over USR's and the Rulebook.

Advanced versus Basic:
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

You first count the armour as 13, then, since it's higher than 12, the lance counts it as 12. That's not a conflict.

 vipoid wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Quantum Shelding Vs. Lance

Spoiler:

Lance- "count Vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

Quantum Shielding- "counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

Modifiers:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

Both are set values. Both are applied last, and in conflict because of it.

If in Conflict, the Advanced versus Basic rules clarify to use the codex rules over USR's and the Rulebook.

Advanced versus Basic:
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

You first count the armour as 13, then, since it's higher than 12, the lance counts it as 12. That's not a conflict.

That's certainly how I'd expect to play it.

Crispy78 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Quantum Shelding Vs. Lance

Spoiler:

Lance- "count Vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

Quantum Shielding- "counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

Modifiers:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

Both are set values. Both are applied last, and in conflict because of it.

If in Conflict, the Advanced versus Basic rules clarify to use the codex rules over USR's and the Rulebook.

Advanced versus Basic:
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

You first count the armour as 13, then, since it's higher than 12, the lance counts it as 12. That's not a conflict.

That's certainly how I'd expect to play it.

Same. The shielding happens first because the model hits the table. The Lance applies afterwards when it attacks. The vehicle is still being treated as AV13 but the Lance treats AV13 as AV12. Both in effect at the same time.

Arkaine wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Quantum Shelding Vs. Lance

Spoiler:

Lance- "count Vehicle Armour Values that are higher than 12 as 12."

Quantum Shielding- "counts all of its Front and Side Armour Values as 13."

Modifiers:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any mulipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values"

Both are set values. Both are applied last, and in conflict because of it.

If in Conflict, the Advanced versus Basic rules clarify to use the codex rules over USR's and the Rulebook.

Advanced versus Basic:
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override basic rules... A conflict will between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedence"

You first count the armour as 13, then, since it's higher than 12, the lance counts it as 12. That's not a conflict.

That's certainly how I'd expect to play it.

Same. The shielding happens first because the model hits the table. The Lance applies afterwards when it attacks. The vehicle is still being treated as AV13 but the Lance treats AV13 as AV12. Both in effect at the same time.

Except that isn't how the Lance rule works and isn't how modifiers apply. lance is a constant effect not just when it is shooting.

There is still conflict because set modifiers apply at the same time there is no other order they apply in. But this is getting off topic. If this continues I suggest making a YMDC post about it