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Also What happened to taking Gue'vesa Auxilaries from FW? (rules)
There just guardsmen so you can cheaply get your troops choices

 Kanluwen wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
$85 per squad. Slowly everyone will reach the cost of building SoB.

Yeah, in Australia.

It's $50 for a squad of 10 or 2 squads of 5.

Yeh, but I'm in Australia hence my mention of the Australian price. Murica isn't the world.

You brought up "the cost of building SoB".

It's $79.80 for a squad of 10 Battle Sisters here. There's a huuuuuuuuuuuge difference in those prices.

I'm generalising and talking about strayla again. I'll actually look at the numbers if it matters, but SoB used to be said as the most expensive army to build. With the hikes every one is slowly getting to the point the sisters were at not too long ago.

To compare it fairly I'll build the SoB from blisters cause while you still have the 10 box there, we don't here. Just 10 bolters is $64 there. As for here the same basic bolters only squad it's $108 so there's actually a slightly bigger gap here.
108 - 85 = 23
vs
64 - 50 = 14

Again not that it matters since I was just making a passing statement based on a quick look at how things continually creep upwards as kits change or, in the DA case, get reboxed etc. I'm being neutral or joking around about it most of the time since I'd rather not get into the forum fights.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

And since you can assemble only 10 complete Fire Warriors, all the extra heads, legs, pulse weapons, shoulderpads and backpacks are useless.

So, you want a bunch of useless plastic bits?

Alright smart guy, since you apparently know so much about this--show how you could do this without sprues being as packed as they are.

I've merely used your own insane logic against you, hardly anything of great merit, so no need to go for the name-calling just yet

How I would do this? Easy. Release two different box sets for traditional Fire Warriors and the new 'Breachers', stamp a sane price tag on them (you know, something like 2€ for each mass-produced plastic model) and be done with it. Design the sprues so you have one (or more) sprue with legs, torsos, shoulderpads, backpacks and heads (same for both sets), then other sprue with the weapons options (different depending on the box set) and perhaps an additional small sprue for turrets and drones.

It's not that difficult. The fact that GW has instead opted for "dual" boxes as a lame excuse to skyrocket prices does not mean it can be done much better (and with a cheaper final product).

The 'oh so packed' sprues are not an excuse. Design them better. There's more plastic left in the sprue than in the bits themselves anyway, plastic is worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
And how many more sprues does all of this take up compared to the old Fire Warriors box? The number of bits are less relevant than the number of molds that have to be tooled in order to determine the cast. Then again, GW still just pulls from its ass whatever price it wants to charge.

Considering WGF/DFG can give you 20 models for $42 on 4.5 sprues.

And let's not even mention the Greatcoat troopers, 18 guys for 24€ with three different main weapons sets, three special weapons for every 3 models, crazy amount of heads to choose from, healthy number of bits and (last but not least) sprues designed to be easily and comfortably stacked and piled one upon another, so storing them is extra easy if you need to.

We're going to mention WFG/DFG?

That overly CAD crap?

Adorables!

 Kanluwen wrote:
We're going to mention WFG/DFG?

That overly CAD crap?

Adorables!

The sculpts don't matter much given that hiring a sculptor is a fixed cost. Those greatcoat troopers have similar material/mold costs to the new Fire Warrior box but are significantly cheaper.

Extra bits and weapons on large kits? Great. Now I can magnetize to swap out weapons.

Extra bits and weapons in troop kits? Crap. Now I have all this junk littering my bits box.

Funny thing though is that Crisis suit heads are about the size of a FW torso. I ended up making two Fireblades using spare arms , legs, and heads.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Los pollos hermanos wrote:
Still doesn't justify the price hike where exactly does the extra costs go? that little drone thing and some new guns and heads. Like 50p worth of extra plastic means a £10 price hike. This is just GW really pushing the limits now. Soon we'll all be paying £50 for a box of ten standard troops the horde armies are going to get royally screwed. How long before we're paying £30 for a squad of gaurdsman pff...

The price hike goes to the following:
You now get the parts to build two Drones of the following type: Marker, Gun, or Shield and enough parts to build a single one of the Guardian Drones.
You get more heads than you're letting on, with twenty helmeted heads and 6 unhelmeted heads(which look to be half male and half female).
You get 12 sets of legs and 10 torsos.
You get 12 Pulse Carbines(including one that is loose and has a matching arm to 'cradle' it), 12 Pulse Rifles(same), 12 Pulse Blasters(same as the others).
You get 10 of each type of shoulderpad(Strike have a larger, flat pad that is currently the Fire Warrior pad while Breachers have a slimmed down version that still looks just as protective) loose from arms.
10 of each backpack type(Strike use the same as now, Breachers have one with the Field Amplifier Relay on it)
You also get the turret with a SMS or Missile Pod.

Thinking on it I don't think I'll be getting tau now im not made of that kind of cash and I wouldn't be able to bring myself to pay £30 for a set barely any different to the previous fire warriors at £20 just last week on the shelves.

Yeah. "Barely any different".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:
$85 per squad. Slowly everyone will reach the cost of building SoB.

Yeah, in Australia.

It's $50 for a squad of 10 or 2 squads of 5.

I agree that the new box should cost more than the old box. You are actually getting more for your money. However, the old box isn't worth what it costs in the first place. The prices have completely stopped my interest in expanding my Tau force. I'm just going to use what I still have.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We're going to mention WFG/DFG?

That overly CAD crap?

Adorables!

Was there a logical and thoughtful point to that post, or just pointless insults?

The point, as it seems to have been missed, is that GW, with an extensive vertical integration with their complete in-house design, sculpting, production, and even sales, should actually charge less for their box of only three sprues than a 4.5 sprue box sold by a company that doesn't have that level of integration. Personal tastes are completely irrelevant to that point.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We're going to mention WFG/DFG?

That overly CAD crap?

Adorables!

Still better than the mutant plastic Cadians and (in the case of Greatcoat troopers) quite cheaper than Cadians as well.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
We're going to mention WFG/DFG?

That overly CAD crap?

Adorables!

The sculpts don't matter much given that hiring a sculptor is a fixed cost. Those greatcoat troopers have similar material/mold costs to the new Fire Warrior box but are significantly cheaper.

Because the cost of maintaining the machinery for casting is not on the company selling you those Greatcoat Troopers(which look like something that stepped out of late 3rd/4th/5th editions, detailwise)?

Should that cost be factored into the pricing of the models, absolutely not and I'll agree with you on that.

However this comparison is the most generalized thing I could imagine. It's basically down to "plastic versus plastic" and "I lost two models in the box and all I got in return were these crappy bits".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Korinov wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
We're going to mention WFG/DFG?

That overly CAD crap?

Adorables!

Still better than the mutant plastic Cadians and (in the case of Greatcoat troopers) quite cheaper than Cadians as well.

When the plastic Cadians first came out during the Eye of Terror event back in 2003, they were 20 Shock Troops for $30.

That is, of course, no longer the case. However back then? You also couldn't field Hardened Veteran Squads as Troops.

 Kanluwen wrote:
"I lost two models in the box and all I got in return were these crappy bits".

At the end of the day the new box gives you two less models, and instead offers a bunch of extra bits you can't really use without more models.

Let's say I buy the dual box. I assemble the models following one specific pattern. After I finish, I'm left with a gakload of bits I can't stick anywhere, unless I buy more models. Where's the benefit in that?

 Korinov wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
"I lost two models in the box and all I got in return were these crappy bits".

At the end of the day the new box gives you two less models, and instead offers a bunch of extra bits you can't really use without more models.

The box gives you two less models--AND THE UNIT CAN NO LONGER MAKE USE OF THOSE TWO MODELS ANYWAYS.

You seem to keep missing that point. The unit size on Breacher/Strike Teams is 5 models, base, with the option to add 5 more for a full unit of 10.
The current unit size on Fire Warrior Teams is 6 models, base, with the option to add 6 more for a full unit of 12.

Let's say I buy the dual box. I assemble the models following one specific pattern. After I finish, I'm left with a gakload of bits I can't stick anywhere, unless I buy more models. Where's the benefit in that?

Did you have any Fire Warriors before? Because those bits can be used on them pretty easily.

Oh, and I can think of one easily used place. Bought any Devilfish APCs or Skyray/Hammerhead boxes? Because it comes with a crew figure that has basically no use and was commonly used for an additional Fire Warrior anyways.

This is pretty typical of GW's pricing strategy the last few years.

They're not the first unit to get hit with that, Guardsmen went from $35 for 20 to $29 for 10, and Dire Avengers were lke $40/45 for 10 and now they're $35 for 5, and they didn't even get new sculpts or bits

 Kanluwen wrote:

The box gives you two less models--AND THE UNIT CAN NO LONGER MAKE USE OF THOSE TWO MODELS ANYWAYS.

You seem to keep missing that point. The unit size on Breacher/Strike Teams is 5 models, base, with the option to add 5 more for a full unit of 10.
The current unit size on Fire Warrior Teams is 6 models, base, with the option to add 6 more for a full unit of 12.

Sorry, that's not how things work.

I buy a model, the model is mine, I'll use it however I want. I may not even want it to play 40k. The use the model will receive is irrelevant in a pricing discussion. And in any case, from GW's point of view, they make toy soldiers to sell them to "hobbyists" and collectors, they couldn't care less about games and rules nowadays.

Perhaps we have simply different mindsets regarding this issue? When I look at a 28mm miniature, I see a 28mm toy that can be used for recreational purposes in any kind of gaming system, or just painted to whatever standard and left to gather dust in a shelf. What do you see when you look at a Tau Fire Warrior? An official GW(tm) model that can only be used for playing The Game(tm) in the context of The Hobby(tm)?

Did you have any Fire Warriors before? Because those bits can be used on them pretty easily.

Oh, and I can think of one easily used place. Bought any Devilfish APCs or Skyray/Hammerhead boxes? Because it comes with a crew figure that has basically no use and was commonly used for an additional Fire Warrior anyways.

You're hardly counter-argumenting my point of still needing more models to take advantage of all those extra bits.

I can hardly fathom how anyone can go in and buy a £30 box of ten bog standard troops and think "yeah GW charged me fairly" when they were charging you half that cost for not much different a few weeks prior.

Hell I remember when troops usually came in 20's and cost like £15-£18 its still just plastic, still troops but you had more and yet they raise the prices through the roof offering the same plastic but less. I fail to see how anyone can argue that GW pricing is logical or fair and works out. Plastic production costs have actually shrunk over the years as the process got cheaper they take models out of the box yet keep charging more. highly illogical and even more illogical to take it from them.

I also like those sets that literally don't change just get a new box yet get slapped with a price hike and people still defend it. People would defend GW's prices even if they started charging £25+ for a single plastic leader no bigger than a space marine captain..oh wait..

I'm glad I already have some of the old Fire Warriors and Kroot. That pretty well sets me for troops (unless Kroot have been removed or something). Now I don't have to pay for more unless I decide I want to try Breachers. Of course, there's probably a Decurion-style formation that will make me get more Fire Warriors...

All this is academic for me of course since I'm not looking to expand my Tau (although I will get the new codex when it comes out) until I get a better-paying job.

I started playing Tau in 2004. I gave up in 2012 when the codex price went from £12 to £30 and didn't contain all the extra crap you have to work with like formations. I haven't bought a single Tau unit since, and I don't play 40K any more.

If everyone took the same approach as I have, GW would by now either have moderated their prices and rules, or gone bust.

I take some hope from the fact that GW have lost about 25% of their sales revenue in the past three years. Another couple of years of reductions will push them over the cliff.

You know what to do.

To enlarge on this; as a result of not buying the £30 codex, I also didn't buy any Riptides, Sunsharks, new Pathfinders, new XV88 suits, and so on. And I won't be buying any of the new stuff from 2015 either.

I have been saving up funds for the Tau release expecting to add more Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits to my Cadre as well as buying some of the new releases. If they made Gue'vesa or Tarellians then I my wallet would of been crying. New Kroot, some tanky melee xv8 variant, new flyer (that doesn't look like squig gak), or plastic vespids would of got me excited as well. What we got was a stealth Riptide (looks cool, not sure what role it would have that Stealth Suits and Fusion Crisis can't fulfill), a Battletech looking LoW (which is a slap in the face to Tau strategic doctrine), and Fire Warriors that look REALLY similar to the old sculpts for less models at more dollars. If the Crisis Box doesn't have some good value then I'm tempted to just see what the codex has in it, buy an older kit or two depending on what units get buffed or have cool formation rules. If there is nothing interesting in the codex then ill just get more Orks

So far I have not been impressed with the Tau releases because of a combination of prices and the line going away from what I liked about Tau (Combined Arms/ Combined Races tactics). I didn't start Tau to play Mobile Suit Taudam (although I would love to see an Ork Zorku)

 Kanluwen wrote:
The box gives you two less models--AND THE UNIT CAN NO LONGER MAKE USE OF THOSE TWO MODELS ANYWAYS.

You seem to keep missing that point.

No, everyone has got that point. It doesn't change the fact that you're exchanging two models, which could conceivably be used elsewhere, for a bunch of bits which you're going to need other models to use.

Fewer models is fewer models.


At the end of the day, dual kits aren't for our benefit. GW save money from dual kits on all sorts of inventory-control related expenses. But from the customer's perspective, a kit that makes 10 fire warriors or 10 breachers still, at the end of the day, only makes a single squad of 10 models, and so shouldn't cost any more than any other squad of 10 models.


In this specific case, they've taken a box of 12 models, removed 2 models and added the option to make the remaining 10 as a different type of 10 models... but it's still only 10 models when you've finished building the kit.

Whatever spin you try to put on that, you're paying considerably more for less.


And to answer the question - yes, $85 for a box of 10 firewarriors and a trashcan has put paid to any consideration of adding anything new to my Tau collection.

for the record the old FW team is still on the american website

Buy it while it's there unless you really want breachers

Actually, I find this comic quite appropriate.