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Think about it. They kind of pave the way towards powerful and innovative lists. They do the number crunching and help us get more streamlined lists. They find awesome powerful killer combos. For all this I feel they take flakk. Instead of getting ridiculed I feel like we should thank our fellow power gamer. Without them I feel the state of the game would be under powered.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Think about it. They kind of pave the way towards powerful and innovative lists. They do the number crunching and help us get more streamlined lists. They find awesome powerful killer combos. For all this I feel they take flakk. Instead of getting ridiculed I feel like we should thank our fellow power gamer. Without them I feel the state of the game would be under powered.

Sure, they do a service for the game by finding the most powerful and broken combos out there. The problems start when they force these onto everyone else without consideration for how other people want to play.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Think about it. They kind of pave the way towards powerful and innovative lists.

There's relatively little innovation here, there's no "deep" secrets, most of this stuff people generally figure out relatively quickly on their own, it's just not everyone actually builds such armies. 40k army building isn't that deep or complex, nor does it take ages to figure out.

They do the number crunching and help us get more streamlined lists. They find awesome powerful killer combos. For all this I feel they take flakk. Instead of getting ridiculed I feel like we should thank our fellow power gamer. Without them I feel the state of the game would be under powered.

All sorts of players do this number crunching. Finding killer combo's isn't particularly hard, nor is it really anything to be particularly excited about.

What do you mean by the state of the game being "underpowered", and how would that be particularly bad? Is it good when someone plops out an auto-pilot unit that just kills everything it touches and can't be hurt in return? That doesn't take much generalship to win with.

No, just no.

40k is at it's strongest when it melds background, narrative, and rules together into a story based game.

40k is a terrible competitive game

If you had just left it as “power gamer” and left the WAAC out, I’d agree with you. There are a number of posters who play in a much more competitive environment who’s opinion I respect, even if it has little bearing on the games I play. I enjoy reading about why some units are better then others, and how the math works out.

I’ll then put some terminators and dreads in my list because I like them and they are fluffy. But I do it with my eyes open. And becasue I play in a more casual meta, I don’t need to squeeze every ounce of power out of my lists.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
No, just no.

40k is at it's strongest when it melds background, narrative, and rules together into a story based game.

40k is a terrible competitive game

To be fair, its not at all a story based game either though.

Lulz sure

Forget the power gamers. I wish they were gonna. I thrive in beating them with fluffy lists and watching their disappointment. It's the best.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
No, just no.

40k is at it's strongest when it melds background, narrative, and rules together into a story based game.

40k is a terrible competitive game

Agreed, 40k is a cooperative game for generating stories in the grimdarknessofthefuture.

Hahaha ok.......

A game has all types of gamers, those who are looking for casual fun, those who play to win, those who seriously go obsessive. Variety makes things fun, its good to be able to start casual and after a few years start playing competitively.

I always hate the type of people who denounce a whole type of player because they personally don't like playing that way "play to win guys are toxic and all bad" just don't play those guys im sure they have others on their level anyway.

WAAC to me means attempting to bend every rule to your advantage. The winner's skill is partially due to his lawyering ability and the strength to browbeat the opponent into compliance, rule-wise.

And bad players don't forcer others to change the rules to their RAI madness or some obscure house rule with FW added?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Forget the power gamers. I wish they were gonna. I thrive in beating them with fluffy lists and watching their disappointment. It's the best.

Said the eldar player with his fluffy casual list.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
No, just no.

40k is at it's strongest when it melds background, narrative, and rules together into a story based game.

40k is a terrible competitive game

Good luck with that...

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Think about it. They kind of pave the way towards powerful and innovative lists. They do the number crunching and help us get more streamlined lists. They find awesome powerful killer combos. For all this I feel they take flakk. Instead of getting ridiculed I feel like we should thank our fellow power gamer. Without them I feel the state of the game would be under powered.

If GW acted accordingly to them it would be a valid point, but as it stands they merely dissuade new players from starting up.

WAAC players are not the only players that make killer lists and expose loop-holes. They are just rude and egotistical when they do it.

please understand OP, WAAC players and power gamers are not under appreciated, they are not WANTED, WAAC players should all leave and go play a decently designed game they can cheese up, leave this poorly designed mess of a game for everyone else to enjoy without their nonsense adding more crap to it.

 Los pollos hermanos wrote:
A game has all types of gamers, those who are looking for casual fun, those who play to win, those who seriously go obsessive. Variety makes things fun, its good to be able to start casual and after a few years start playing competitively.

I always hate the type of people who denounce a whole type of player because they personally don't like playing that way "play to win guys are toxic and all bad" just don't play those guys im sure they have others on their level anyway.

I try not to "denounce" them; I just don't play them because it won't be a fun experience for either of us.

On the other hand I don't understand that of person gravitating to 40k; it's been pretty clear that the game has never been aimed at that sort of play. Surely there are any number of games which reward that sort of close reading and deconstruction of a rulebook.

It's ok to be a power gamer. The problem is when the other players the power gamer play with aren't.

Thus far good insight. Keep it going gents.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Thus far good insight. Keep it going gents.

The thread was almost a week old. If we had wanted to keep discussing it, we would have.

I think the only problem with WAAC gamers is that GW has one and only one format, along with no tournament support at multiple levels of play. Other games usually create scenarios which appeal to various gamers at different levels, and as such make it so that the super casual isn't playing with the WAAC, or if they are it's in such a situation that the WAAC isn't actually worried about winning. That's a rather important element of creating tournament play, as casual tournaments that don't appeal to WAAC are the bread and butter of any game.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
No, just no.

40k is at it's strongest when it melds background, narrative, and rules together into a story based game.

40k is a terrible competitive game

40k is a terrible game period.

Not to mention that competitve game tells the exact kind of story narrative game does. That you will write 3 pages of how their bolters shone in the sun, list excuses for battle or name each unit like GW does doesn't make the core of the "story" much better. Imo forced narrative actualy makes the story worse ie challenges on every corner because rule vs that awesome moments before where my Tyrant met that Marneus clown in the middle for a western kind of duel then a hefty brawl just because they were last guys on a table.

Narrative is mostly just an excuse for bad rules and balance. You could make that point in RT times but not about this, competitive by definition, 40k battle game of today.

They are over appreciated ( at least around here). Most of the national events are about competitive play.
This is kinda silly when you look at the rules or when you realize that they are only a small fraction of the customers and an even a smaller fraction of the actual players.

I would love some non competitive events where you could just play against great opponents instead of playing tournaments with restricted army lists that protect the power gamer meta that prevent me from fielding the armies I enjoy playing.

People just need to except that 40k is a game and with a game there's always a winner, if you're a WAAC player then that's just the type of player you are there's nothing wrong with it. If you want to build and play with you super fun fluffy army of fluff then all the power to you but the problem is when those fluff players complain about competive players (it's a game, and it's competive get over it) same thing goes for events, why are you showing up with a fluff army to a competive event.? And then crying about getting curb stomped. If you want balance then WAAC stick to events and FAAC players stick to local stores and friends house.


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 oldzoggy wrote:
They are over appreciated ( at least around here). Most of the national events are about competitive play.
This is kinda silly when you look at the rules or when you realize that they are only a small fraction of the customers and an even a smaller fraction of the actual players.

I would love some non competitive events where you could just play against great opponents instead of playing tournaments with restricted army lists that protect the power gamer meta that prevent me from fielding the armies I enjoy playing.

run your own event, everyone wants a lot of things but is willing to do nothing, you want change then you make the change. Warn you now tho not a lot of people are going to pay to come to a event just to play each other in friendly games when they can do that for free at there local store

Dman137 wrote:
run your own event, everyone wants a lot of things but is willing to do nothing, you want change then you make the change. Warn you now tho not a lot of people are going to pay to come to a event just to play each other in friendly games when they can do that for free at there local store

That's actually what we do and you'd be surprised at the number of players who are willing to pay for such games. Warhammer is rare enough now that players just want someone to play most of the time. If your usual game store does it on Friday and ours is Saturday, you either skip Saturday night gaming or come play with our rules.

The turnouts are stellar! Your warning might apply in your area, but doesn't seem to work out here.

 Arkaine wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
run your own event, everyone wants a lot of things but is willing to do nothing, you want change then you make the change. Warn you now tho not a lot of people are going to pay to come to a event just to play each other in friendly games when they can do that for free at there local store

That's actually what we do and you'd be surprised at the number of players who are willing to pay for such games. Warhammer is rare enough now that players just want someone to play most of the time. If your usual game store does it on Friday and ours is Saturday, you either skip Saturday night gaming or come play with our rules.

The turnouts are stellar! Your warning might apply in your area, but doesn't seem to work out here.

that's good then, if it works in your area and you have a good turn out then why don't you organize a event.?you say you wish there was one, so go out there and start one up, usually the first time you take a bit of a hit (money) but 2nd or 3rd year you pretty much break even sometimes even make a little bit.

There is nothing wrong with power gamers. Most games have them, when they go against each other it is a good thing to see. Its when they get mixed with casual gamers that people get butthurt.

But WAAC players are terrible.

Isint there not a duplicate thread of this that got locked?

Yep, and I really need to learn how to read dates ha, this one was created first so the other was the dup