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It seems like Orks and IG are stuck in a constant downward spiral, in which each edition further minimizes their already dwindling effectiveness. While its uncertain what'll happen to Tyranids in 7th edition (if anything at all...) I'm starting to worry these armies (and some others) aren't ever going to be brought back up to the ridiculous level of power the game is currently at. What do you think will happen to these armies power wise?

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It seems like Orks and IG are stuck in a constant downward spiral, in which each edition further minimizes their already dwindling effectiveness. While its uncertain what'll happen to Tyranids in 7th edition (if anything at all...) I'm starting to worry these armies (and some others) aren't ever going to be brought back up to the ridiculous level of power the game is currently at. What do you think will happen to these armies power wise?

Who knows. GW appears to be changing its codex design philosophy every 12-18 months and their business strategy is obviously in some sort of flux, particularly with some rumors out now that the upcoming Tau codex release is simply going to include the new models and otherwise remain identical to the older book.

Nope. Any codex upstream to an eldar codex will be buffed, till the pinnacle of eldar, before getting hit hard with nerfs downstream. These codexes has always been downstream from eldar. Has been happening since 3rd. Nothing will change unless they change the release order, which is unlikely.

If you want to win all your games, then play eldar, if not, I hope you don't mind losing consistently. If you don't want either, then play something else.

P.S., Cruddace is writing the next Tyranids codex, enjoy your 15pt gaunts, exploding pyrovores, and everything not covered by synapse getting hit with a str: D hit. That's the only "D" we'll be getting. Also, wings on tyrants will be 100pt, and grant fleet instead of turning it into a FMC. It was overpowered last edition after all, the eldar players were complaining that it takes too long to table them.

kburn wrote:
Nope. Any codex upstream to an eldar codex will be buffed, till the pinnacle of eldar, before getting hit hard with nerfs downstream. These codexes has always been downstream from eldar. Has been happening since 3rd. Nothing will change unless they change the release order, which is unlikely.

If you want to win all your games, then play eldar, if not, I hope you don't mind losing consistently. If you don't want either, then play something else.

P.S., Cruddace is writing the next Tyranids codex, enjoy your 15pt gaunts, exploding pyrovores, and everything not covered by synapse getting hit with a str: D hit. That's the only "D" we'll be getting. Also, wings on tyrants will be 100pt, and grant fleet instead of turning it into a FMC. It was overpowered last edition after all, the eldar players were complaining that it takes too long to table them.

Let the bitterness flow through you. Soon you will be ready to play BA.

I have to wonder if swarm armies generate low profits for GW, which is why they are not favored.

What I don't understand is IG. You would think that the tank models would generate high enough profit margin that they would justify better rules. Maybe they are currently going through a heavy re-design, with "appropriate" price hikes.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I have to wonder if swarm armies generate low profits for GW, which is why they are not favored.

What I don't understand is IG. You would think that the tank models would generate high enough profit margin that they would justify better rules. Maybe they are currently going through a heavy re-design, with "appropriate" price hikes.

Trying to understand GW's design philosophy is like trying to understand an insane person. You hope they can produce something brilliant but always be prepared to receive a pile of gak.

Guard will get buffed the day that Eldar become terrible. So never

The fallacy in trying to understand GW's design philosophy is believing they have one in the first place.

History and the rare tidbits we get from people working in the industry point to their rules writing pretty much being random, with certain codices being consistently strong because they keep getting worked on by the same people, who also tend to have a bias for the army in general.

 War Kitten wrote:
Guard will get buffed the day that Eldar become terrible. So never

Truth.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I have to wonder if swarm armies generate low profits for GW, which is why they are not favored.

What I don't understand is IG. You would think that the tank models would generate high enough profit margin that they would justify better rules. Maybe they are currently going through a heavy re-design, with "appropriate" price hikes.

This makes no sense. Swarm armies require you to buy multiple kits. Building a footslogging Waaagh!, an endless swarm, or a full infantry company is going to take a lot more kits than building an elite army of just a few units.

I get the feeling that this is an accurate representation of GW's meetings.

GW makes sense if you look at them as just appealing to Space Marines. Everything is about them. Other factions are just fodder for them to decimate. Eldar just happens to be an exception because it's the "challenge" all Space Marine players eventually graduate to, the final boss if you were. Necrons and Tau can also be annoying but they're just hard mode for the Space Marine players, the true threats to the galaxy.

Orks are warmups and Damage Per Turn testers to experiment on, Chaos are copycats that clearly aren't as cool as they are, Tyranids are pests to be exterminated, and Astra Militarum are those guys who WISH they were Space Marines and are just jealous of the awesome toys you have.

Meanwhile, the space elf zombies, the anime gundam suits, and the ancient super beings are the real threats to the universe.

They don't make sense even from that perspective, as only two marine chapters out of 5 are actually competitive.

Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights are roughly on par with all the non-marine factions.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It seems like Orks and IG are stuck in a constant downward spiral, in which each edition further minimizes their already dwindling effectiveness. While its uncertain what'll happen to Tyranids in 7th edition (if anything at all...) I'm starting to worry these armies (and some others) aren't ever going to be brought back up to the ridiculous level of power the game is currently at. What do you think will happen to these armies power wise?

You forgot BA and CSM, the two confirmed worst and most useless codexes.

 Selym wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It seems like Orks and IG are stuck in a constant downward spiral, in which each edition further minimizes their already dwindling effectiveness. While its uncertain what'll happen to Tyranids in 7th edition (if anything at all...) I'm starting to worry these armies (and some others) aren't ever going to be brought back up to the ridiculous level of power the game is currently at. What do you think will happen to these armies power wise?

You forgot BA and CSM, the two confirmed worst and most useless codexes.

You really think BA are as low as Orks and CSM? That's surprising to hear.

We had our day in the sun during Fifth edition. So... it can happen. I'm still holding out hope for my walking flashlights.

Nids got buffed through Drop Pods and Mucolids (Hive Fleet detachment too).

Nids are one of the more popular Xenos armies so it makes sense to appeal to them. They lost 23% of their stock from the new Codex. Granted, the world market crashing might have aggrevated this, but it's still something to consider.

I find it funny that everyone is acting like IG has never been good in the history of ever. I remember back in the 5th edition Leafblower days IG was considered one of the cheesiest armies around, just behind grey knights. Back in 5th the vehicle rules essentially made vendettas and vets in chimeras unstoppable to all but the craziest lists. Oh how the times change I guess

Also funnily enough, Eldar was considered one of the weakest codexes by far at that time, to the point where if you saw them you assumed they were either a newbie or a guy who loved punishment.

As for the OP's point, the game just needs a drastic redesign at this point, primarily redoing the codexes more than the base rules, although that wouldn't hurt either. The problem is that it's impossible to write a balanced set of core rules when essentially every codex is balanced to something else seemingly on a whim, both against other codexes and even internally.

Basically, they need to wipe all the formations and other random additional crap, and redo all the codexes at the same time. Start with basic codexes and launch a trimmed down and streamlined version of the main rules. Without this, armies like IG and nids just won't be able to keep up, as the rules just flat out don't favor how they're supposed to play.

Why should I bother deploying an IG infantry company when every weapon in the game now seems tailor made to wipe them out? Why would I spend 2-3 times as much as the next guy if I'm going to just get stomped every game.

The other thing that would help is lowering the game sizes a bit, like say treating standard tourney as maybe a 1,000pts max. 40k's rules are built around skirmish play of maybe a platoon's worth of troops per side. Trying to play 1850, 2,000 or more just doesn't work in standard games. 1850 or more literally gets you to the point where you take up almost the entire board which is extremely tiring to rjn

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It seems like Orks and IG are stuck in a constant downward spiral, in which each edition further minimizes their already dwindling effectiveness. While its uncertain what'll happen to Tyranids in 7th edition (if anything at all...) I'm starting to worry these armies (and some others) aren't ever going to be brought back up to the ridiculous level of power the game is currently at. What do you think will happen to these armies power wise?

You forgot BA and CSM, the two confirmed worst and most useless codexes.

You really think BA are as low as Orks and CSM? That's surprising to hear.

Eh, BA was mostly a joke, but I can only assume, given Martel, that it's the worst thing ever written

CSM are just dire though. Need a whole line revamp.

 Selym wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
It seems like Orks and IG are stuck in a constant downward spiral, in which each edition further minimizes their already dwindling effectiveness. While its uncertain what'll happen to Tyranids in 7th edition (if anything at all...) I'm starting to worry these armies (and some others) aren't ever going to be brought back up to the ridiculous level of power the game is currently at. What do you think will happen to these armies power wise?

You forgot BA and CSM, the two confirmed worst and most useless codexes.

You really think BA are as low as Orks and CSM? That's surprising to hear.

Eh, BA was mostly a joke, but I can only assume, given Martel, that it's the worst thing ever written

CSM are just dire though. Need a whole line revamp.

BA could be sweeping tournament after tournament and Martel would still hate them because he lost to Necrons once.

Just kidding Martel! We all love you!

Agreed on CSM. They have a bad Codex on top of old, outdated model kits. They really, really need a DE-style revamp. I hope the new CSM tac box continues the aesthetic they established in 6th ed with the new Raptors/Warp Talons and the DV chosen.

Yea. About the only thing that would make me buy a GW item atm is a low price point amazeballs CSM model.

-Make squad of 10
-Play Kill Team

If the pendulum ever swings back to vehicles being good, Guard would be buffed. But when MCs and GCs are as good as they are, and almost without exception, vehicles are crap, it is hard for Guard to be all that good. And trying to run big blobs of dudes doesn't really do much when MCs and GCs toting weapons that wipe huge amounts of them out without a second thought.