Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Peregrine wrote:
Have you seen the latest GW releases? Tau just got a new LoW, a new stealth suit MC, a new troops unit, a new FMC suit, and a new fortification. The new codex will probably contain blatantly overpowered formations that require most players to buy more copies of current-codex models to complete their formations and unlock the overpowered bonuses. And this is happening after the current codex introduced the blatantly overpowered Riptide (which every Tau player had to buy), nerfed railgun Broadsides and tanks (which every Tau player already had) to the point where you can't use them anymore, and replaced them with missile Broadsides that require you to buy a new model. It was pretty fortunate that the codex flyers sucked so Tau players could keep using their FW Barracudas... Oh wait, you banned the Barracuda so Tau players were forced to buy the new codex flyers if they wanted to have a flyer in their army. So much for your idea of protecting everyone's wallets.

It's not like the group is sold on all the new models that are being added to the main codices these past few years, but as mentioned we don't pick and choose. The entire Tau codex is allowed which means even these new monstrous eyesores are permitted as well. Until decided upon differently. The great thing about being in a community is that decisions can be made or overturned whenever the group decides it and that everyone has the right to speak their mind or put in a vote. Heck, we might see a request to completely BAN TAU ALTOGETHER come along and if the group wills it, it would pass and Tau would be banned too. You as an individual do not have the right to say people must allow your models simply because they exist. The community on the other hand does have the right to police itself and collectively vote upon what models they wish to allow or disallow.

 Peregrine wrote:
I see, so I'm not going to feel singled out if I show up at your store and I'm told that I need to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to buy a new army if I want to play there?

Why would I want to join your community? From the outside it looks like you're a bunch of TFGs, and I have no more interest in fighting people just to be allowed to play with my army. I'll just take my money elsewhere if a group insists on terrible rules like yours, and warn new players to avoid you.

In short, you only play Dkok and refuse to play a standard GW army. Then yes, you're a TFG and need not apply. You might as well complain when the supermarket has a "No Outside Food or Drink" sign that they are oppressing your right to eat McDonalds inside their store.

HOW does wanting to play DKoK make someone a TFG?

Gotta love how a lack of options is somehow a good thing. Especially when CSM are brought up. As one of the weakest codexes, I tend to bring forgeworld models to cover weaknesses and, more importantly, get things I find fun. So in this case if I came to your group, played along and used GW only, got smashed by whatever lost my oponent played and was told it was fair, and decided to leave...that would be a fair system for new players to be excited to join? I'm veeeery glad to know that isn't my group, because I might not have gotten back into the game if that was my only option

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOW does wanting to play DKoK make someone a TFG?

Because 40k is about Supporting Your Local GW Store, not playing a game. If you aren't buying all of your stuff in the store then you're the worst kind of TFG, even if you make up for not buying 40k stuff by buying all of your MTG/X-Wing/whatever stuff there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:
It's not like the group is sold on all the new models that are being added to the main codices these past few years, but as mentioned we don't pick and choose.

Of course you pick and choose. You just throw a flimsy pretense of "fairness" on your picking and choosing. If you're banning LoW/fortifications/etc out of a codex then you aren't allowing that codex, you're just allowing the units you personally want to allow from that codex.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOW does wanting to play DKoK make someone a TFG?

..because he wants to play an army the group voted to ban. Sure, that's not exactly TFG behavior, but if the majority of the club voted to exclude Eldar, then guess what? Don't play there. Don't stand outside the doors clamoring about the unfair treatment when it was a democratic vote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Have you seen the latest GW releases? Tau just got a new LoW, a new stealth suit MC, a new troops unit, a new FMC suit, and a new fortification. The new codex will probably contain blatantly overpowered formations that require most players to buy more copies of current-codex models to complete their formations and unlock the overpowered bonuses. And this is happening after the current codex introduced the blatantly overpowered Riptide (which every Tau player had to buy), nerfed railgun Broadsides and tanks (which every Tau player already had) to the point where you can't use them anymore, and replaced them with missile Broadsides that require you to buy a new model. It was pretty fortunate that the codex flyers sucked so Tau players could keep using their FW Barracudas... Oh wait, you banned the Barracuda so Tau players were forced to buy the new codex flyers if they wanted to have a flyer in their army. So much for your idea of protecting everyone's wallets.

It's not like the group is sold on all the new models that are being added to the main codices these past few years, but as mentioned we don't pick and choose. The entire Tau codex is allowed which means even these new monstrous eyesores are permitted as well. Until decided upon differently. The great thing about being in a community is that decisions can be made or overturned whenever the group decides it and that everyone has the right to speak their mind or put in a vote. Heck, we might see a request to completely BAN TAU ALTOGETHER come along and if the group wills it, it would pass and Tau would be banned too. You as an individual do not have the right to say people must allow your models simply because they exist. The community on the other hand does have the right to police itself and collectively vote upon what models they wish to allow or disallow.

 Peregrine wrote:
I see, so I'm not going to feel singled out if I show up at your store and I'm told that I need to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to buy a new army if I want to play there?

Why would I want to join your community? From the outside it looks like you're a bunch of TFGs, and I have no more interest in fighting people just to be allowed to play with my army. I'll just take my money elsewhere if a group insists on terrible rules like yours, and warn new players to avoid you.

In short, you only play Dkok and refuse to play a standard GW army. Then yes, you're a TFG and need not apply. You might as well complain when the supermarket has a "No Outside Food or Drink" sign that they are oppressing your right to eat McDonalds inside their store.

Arkaine, I gotta say, you're getting a lot of gak for your rules. I for one would love to play at your place, not because of everything you banned, but because I like the idea of a democratic voting on what power levels should be allowed in play. Props to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
It's not like the group is sold on all the new models that are being added to the main codices these past few years, but as mentioned we don't pick and choose.

Of course you pick and choose. You just throw a flimsy pretense of "fairness" on your picking and choosing. If you're banning LoW/fortifications/etc out of a codex then you aren't allowing that codex, you're just allowing the units you personally want to allow from that codex.

That's a lot of singling him out when he said it's a community decided ban. But hey, words are hard.

 Arkaine wrote:

I disagree, it accurately describes our stance. No one may shop at Whole Foods, or if they do, please leave the apples you purchased there at home. I must stress this is how the majority of our players wish it to be done, else they would have elected to retain Forgeworld in the legal pool of resources. It's truly no different from playing something like Dominion and forbidding the use of the Prosperity expansion by popular vote. We're merely removing a certain pool of resources from the table wholesale rather than going through the expansion and picking which cards will never be used. You may argue that it's more prudent to use the latter method, but it also comes with more prejudice and management of ban lists and checking to see if someone's model is on the list any time it comes into question. Wide bans are easier to manage for the community than specific bans.

Your missing the point. I get that's how you've done it, I don't agree with the why of it. Or a the very least I find your explanation limited enough to not understand it.

I humbly disagree. A Black Lotus on its own is useless. It's what you can do in tandem with it that makes it desirable. Just as while individually a Forgeworld model may appear balanced or even useless, the tactics that can be pulled off with them warranted their removal to keep the playing field level.

You are being pedantic, I know that the black lotus has to be combined. It only generates mana after all. It allows for 1st turn kill combinations. Theres is nothing in 40k, be it forgeworld or regular 40k, that comes anywhere in the same league of broken as that, nor is there any model as difficult to obtain. The comparison was absurd in my humble opinion.

For the same reason that what was originally an explanation on my group's decision to disallow Forgeworld has bloomed into a multi-page discussion. People get quite defensive when they feel like their models are being restricted, especially if it's at a specific level ("You shouldn't be bringing THAT to a game!"). Blanket bans like "No Forgeworld" or "No LoWs" are easier to swallow and don't leave anyone feeling singled out.

If you are having problem with one or several specific people playing abusively you should single them out (In a mature and non-vitriolic way). Limiting a majority for the transgressions of a minority because you feel you can't discuss the problem with the individuals at fault is cowardly and unfair. Of course if indeed every single person is happy with the way the community has voted then great. Keep it up.

That would require the community putting a great deal of faith in one person or a group of people or even the community's understanding of each model if we put it to a vote.

Since you've voted out allies, LoW, forgeworld and most fortifications doesn't that mean the community is already putting a great deal of faith in the community's understanding of the game and the models in it? Or are you saying you made these in votes in ignorance and don't wish to put the time and effort to become more informed? I'm not trying to be patronizing here, I'm honestly curious. I assumed since your club has a voting committee and people abide by it's ruling that faith was already there no? In any case if your club is having fun great! I just think your voted bans makes it less inclusive, and not more.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOW does wanting to play DKoK make someone a TFG?

Yeah God forbid, a painter who loves the models actually has a beautiful army. What an awful person!

 Peregrine wrote:
Of course you pick and choose. You just throw a flimsy pretense of "fairness" on your picking and choosing. If you're banning LoW/fortifications/etc out of a codex then you aren't allowing that codex, you're just allowing the units you personally want to allow from that codex.

In what way is the election of options a pretense of fairness? You keep saying what I personally want... LOL! Clearly you've been glazing over the fact that these issues are discussed and voted upon by every member of the community. I personally have Plasma Obliterators, CSM FW models, a codex that desperately needs the help, and a Lord of Skulls sitting on the desk. Please don't tell me what I want, it makes you seem like a troll.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOW does wanting to play DKoK make someone a TFG?

Read the sentence again -- "refuse to play a standard GW army". Like the guy who insists on playing his 3.5 edition CSM codex instead of the latest version. Also, Peregrine is a verifiable TFG just from reading this thread...
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/530411.page#top
...and from his insistence that players succumb to allowing his FW army when the majority of the players have indicated they'd prefer not to. We do not abide tyrants unless they are of the Hive variety.

Probably because he invested in said army and doesn't want to spend more money? Heck the only reason I have a 1k Stormtrooper army alongside my DKoK army is because I randomly bought Stormtroopers models to paint and I realised that I suddendly had a 1k army.

 chalkobob wrote:

Your missing the point. I get that's how you've done it, I don't agree with the why of it. Or a the very least I find your explanation limited enough to not understand it.

Then forgive me but I can think of no better way to explain it that hasn't already been stated earlier in the thread. Perhaps it's simply not meant to be agreed upon. It is after all the result of a majority vote of peers. Some will agree, some will disagree, but all will play by the same rules.

 chalkobob wrote:
You are being pedantic, I know that the black lotus has to be combined. It only generates mana after all. It allows for 1st turn kill combinations. Theres is nothing in 40k, be it forgeworld or regular 40k, that comes anywhere in the same league of broken as that, nor is there any model as difficult to obtain. The comparison was absurd in my humble opinion.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm also sorry you're having trouble locating a Black Lotus for purchase. There are four pages of them available on Ebay currently. If we're looking at the Black Lotus as a tool that leads to a 1st turn kill, perhaps you can review the humble Drop Pod and its ability to achieve the same for Space Marines. Sure, drop pods aren't as expensive, but that's because they're still being printed/created while the Lotus is out of print. There are plenty of stupidly overpowered cards in Magic printed in NEW sets that become staples for use but they won't achieve the price ranges of the Power Nine because they are still easily available. If GW ever decided to stop making Drop Pods, watch the price skyrocket.

 chalkobob wrote:
Since you've voted out allies, LoW, forgeworld and most fortifications doesn't that mean the community is already putting a great deal of faith in the community's understanding of the game and the models in it?

I cannot claim to understand the reasons for everyone who voted or their understanding of the game and its models, but voting to ban Lords of War or Forgeworld only requires knowing a subset of the available options. Banning units on an individual basis requires understanding the full breadth of the game and that is certainly not that same level of understanding required.

Then forgive me but I can think of no better way to explain it that hasn't already been stated earlier in the thread. Perhaps it's simply not meant to be agreed upon. It is after all the result of a majority vote of peers. Some will agree, some will disagree, but all will play by the same rules.

Nothing to forgive, we'll agree to disagree.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm also sorry you're having trouble locating a Black Lotus for purchase. There are four pages of them available on Ebay currently. If we're looking at the Black Lotus as a tool that leads to a 1st turn kill, perhaps you can review the humble Drop Pod and its ability to achieve the same for Space Marines.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that a black lotus was impossible to find, but it is a very rare and very expensive card, and nothing that forge world produces or has ever produced combines that level of power with that level of exclusiveness. You've seriously been tabled 1st turn by a drop pod army?! Or ever heard of someone being completely tabled by drop pods on the very first turn?! Seriously?!

I cannot claim to understand the reasons for everyone who voted or their understanding of the game and its models, but voting to ban Lords of War or Forgeworld only requires knowing a subset of the available options. Banning units on an individual basis requires understanding the full breadth of the game and that is certainly not that same level of understanding required.

It sure is easier just to ban everything.

 Arkaine wrote:

In short, you only play Dkok and refuse to play a standard GW army. Then yes, you're a TFG and need not apply. You might as well complain when the supermarket has a "No Outside Food or Drink" sign that they are oppressing your right to eat McDonalds inside their store.

Sorry, but this is simply a daft statement, full stop.
'
First off, in GW's own words, there is no such thing as a "standard army". Second, a DKoK army is GW army, with rules written by GW employees working at GW HQ, in books published by GW with GW copyrights.Finally, the idea that just playing a DKoK army (as opposed to another army) makes someone a TFG is probably the most TFG statement I've ever seen, there's no rational thought in that, it's an army like any other, it's just sold through Sales Channel X instead of Sales Channel Y, and has nothing to do with a person being a TFG. Just because they liked the DKoK models and wants to run an actual DKoK army, as opposed to a standard IG codex army, has zero bearing on them being a "TFG".

Sorry, but that entire statement is absurd.

 chalkobob wrote:
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that a black lotus was impossible to find, but it is a very rare and very expensive card, and nothing that forge world produces or has ever produced combines that level of power with that level of exclusiveness. You've seriously been tabled 1st turn by a drop pod army?! Or ever heard of someone being completely tabled by drop pods on the very first turn?! Seriously?!

Well now, I do believe there's a bit of an uproar going on regarding the Plasma Obliterator and its Limited Edition status. It sold out in the blink of an eye and is even now a desirable item with a strong weapon for any faction. Sure, it'll never reach the cost of a Black Lotus... but then 40k will never reach the popularity of Magic... Having millions of players fighting over a shrinking supply tends to jack up the price. In my high school days, it was only a $400 card and could easily compete with Forgeworld.

Haha, not me no, I play CSM and can't be tabled by Space Marines. Our Ultramarines player has tabled the Daemonkin, Dark Eldar, and Tau players though on turn 1 with a Skyhammer Annihilation formation in addition to his CAD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sorry, but that entire statement is absurd.

Funny as I see the statements arguing that Forgeworld must be accepted everywhere regardless of what democratic decision decrees to be arguably more absurd.

ITT: Man, feth that guy for what his club voted on!

Incredible! My Tau have been hammered pretty hard by skyhammer, but have never come close to being tabled 1st, or even 2nd turn. I will say this, you have a very strange and selective voting panel when you have a meta where taking a skyhammer army against something as underpowered as a DE army is acceptable, but that same DE player would be barred from taking a tantalus in his list.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

In short, you only play Dkok and refuse to play a standard GW army. Then yes, you're a TFG and need not apply. You might as well complain when the supermarket has a "No Outside Food or Drink" sign that they are oppressing your right to eat McDonalds inside their store.

Sorry, but this is simply a daft statement, full stop.
'
First off, in GW's own words, there is no such thing as a "standard army". Second, a DKoK army is GW army, with rules written by GW employees working at GW HQ, in books published by GW with GW copyrights.Finally, the idea that just playing a DKoK army (as opposed to another army) makes someone a TFG is probably the most TFG statement I've ever seen, there's no rational thought in that, it's an army like any other, it's just sold through Sales Channel X instead of Sales Channel Y, and has nothing to do with a person being a TFG. Just because they liked the DKoK models and wants to run an actual DKoK army, as opposed to a standard IG codex army, has zero bearing on them being a "TFG".

Sorry, but that entire statement is absurd.

Exalted. Thats about the dumbest thing he could say, I am not a fan of FW but I would never flat out tell people GTFO, I would simply ask to be given a chance to modify my list if its an OP unit or if it was just DKOK I would say lets go!.

And before someone mentions, its extremely hard to switch to an IG army and have the same amount of points as DKoK army if you went with DKoK exclusive units.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Have you seen the latest GW releases? Tau just got a new LoW, a new stealth suit MC, a new troops unit, a new FMC suit, and a new fortification. The new codex will probably contain blatantly overpowered formations that require most players to buy more copies of current-codex models to complete their formations and unlock the overpowered bonuses. And this is happening after the current codex introduced the blatantly overpowered Riptide (which every Tau player had to buy), nerfed railgun Broadsides and tanks (which every Tau player already had) to the point where you can't use them anymore, and replaced them with missile Broadsides that require you to buy a new model. It was pretty fortunate that the codex flyers sucked so Tau players could keep using their FW Barracudas... Oh wait, you banned the Barracuda so Tau players were forced to buy the new codex flyers if they wanted to have a flyer in their army. So much for your idea of protecting everyone's wallets.

It's not like the group is sold on all the new models that are being added to the main codices these past few years, but as mentioned we don't pick and choose. The entire Tau codex is allowed which means even these new monstrous eyesores are permitted as well. Until decided upon differently. The great thing about being in a community is that decisions can be made or overturned whenever the group decides it and that everyone has the right to speak their mind or put in a vote. Heck, we might see a request to completely BAN TAU ALTOGETHER come along and if the group wills it, it would pass and Tau would be banned too. You as an individual do not have the right to say people must allow your models simply because they exist. The community on the other hand does have the right to police itself and collectively vote upon what models they wish to allow or disallow.
Your community sounds like a bunch of wacko CAAC players. Your discrimination against collectors who like FW or whatever codices you deem "too strong" is wrong. Games should be decided on an individual basis between two people unless your at an organized event.

 Peregrine wrote:
I see, so I'm not going to feel singled out if I show up at your store and I'm told that I need to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to buy a new army if I want to play there?

Why would I want to join your community? From the outside it looks like you're a bunch of TFGs, and I have no more interest in fighting people just to be allowed to play with my army. I'll just take my money elsewhere if a group insists on terrible rules like yours, and warn new players to avoid you.

In short, you only play Dkok and refuse to play a standard GW army. Then yes, you're a TFG and need not apply. You might as well complain when the supermarket has a "No Outside Food or Drink" sign that they are oppressing your right to eat McDonalds inside their store. This is a ridiculous assumption. Wanting to play DKoK (which btw is one of the coolest ideas for an IG army ever) does NOT make you TFG any more than wanting to play space marines or necrons or sisters of battle etc.

 chalkobob wrote:
Incredible! My Tau have been hammered pretty hard by skyhammer, but have never come close to being tabled 1st, or even 2nd turn. I will say this, you have a very strange and selective voting panel when you have a meta where taking a skyhammer army against something as underpowered as a DE army is acceptable, but that same DE player would be barred from taking a tantalus in his list.

There isn't a panel actually. Everyone is given a vote, the process usually takes a few weeks. Formations are new and interesting enough that there have been benefits and pitfalls seen both ways with them. They were banned for a few events while people grew accustomed to their rules but are now seen as a positive addition to the rules. Especially by that Ultramarines player who owns all of three tanks and relies almost entirely on his infantry. The subject has come up to permanently ban them twice now but both times it was outvoted.

As I mentioned several times, a lot of our members are new to 40k and fine the idea of formations fascinating because they don't have to buy a huge balanced army of robots and tanks. They can pretty much only buy what they want. One of the Dark Angels players owns nothing but bikes and speeders and plays Ravenwing exclusively. If you're in a meta where Forgeworld acceptance is the norm, you're likely surrounded by long-term players. We only have a few of those, I'm one of them myself, and so we are hand tied to keep it interesting for the newbies. Despite how awful the CSM codex is without Forgeworld, I am still considered one of the best players at the site. The lists we see tend to be very friendly and modest with almost no deathstars or janky combos. I personally own two Heldrakes yet I almost never bring them to the table, even against Space Marines. I actually field Thousand Sons as often as possible... we're not interested in crushing people with Lords of War, we're interested in community, fun, and friendship.

You may now proceed to puke rainbows and insinuate the presence of bronies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
ITT: Man, feth that guy for what his club voted on!

Pretty much, but some people only value their own opinion and crap on a group that does things differently. Exalted!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Exalted. Thats about the dumbest thing he could say, I am not a fan of FW but I would never flat out tell people GTFO, I would simply ask to be given a chance to modify my list if its an OP unit or if it was just DKOK I would say lets go!.

What makes him a TFG is his refusal to conform to the rules of the venue and an insistence on his God-given RIGHT to bring his FW army. Not the fact that he buys models from Forgeworld. Sheesh...

 Arkaine wrote:

 chalkobob wrote:
Incredible! My Tau have been hammered pretty hard by skyhammer, but have never come close to being tabled 1st, or even 2nd turn. I will say this, you have a very strange and selective voting panel when you have a meta where taking a skyhammer army against something as underpowered as a DE army is acceptable, but that same DE player would be barred from taking a tantalus in his list.

There isn't a panel actually. Everyone is given a vote, the process usually takes a few weeks. Formations are new and interesting enough that there have been benefits and pitfalls seen both ways with them. They were banned for a few events while people grew accustomed to their rules but are now seen as a positive addition to the rules. Especially by that Ultramarines player who owns all of three tanks and relies almost entirely on his infantry. The subject has come up to permanently ban them twice now but both times it was outvoted.

As I mentioned several times, a lot of our members are new to 40k and fine the idea of formations fascinating because they don't have to buy a huge balanced army of robots and tanks. They can pretty much only buy what they want. One of the Dark Angels players owns nothing but bikes and speeders and plays Ravenwing exclusively. If you're in a meta where Forgeworld acceptance is the norm, you're likely surrounded by long-term players. We only have a few of those, I'm one of them myself, and so we are hand tied to keep it interesting for the newbies. Despite how awful the CSM codex is without Forgeworld, I am still considered one of the best players at the site. The lists we see tend to be very friendly and modest with almost no deathstars or janky combos. I personally own two Heldrakes yet I almost never bring them to the table, even against Space Marines. I actually field Thousand Sons as often as possible... we're not interested in crushing people with Lords of War, we're interested in community, fun, and friendship.

You may now proceed to puke rainbows and insinuate the presence of bronies.

I'm sure if there were any at your club you'd tell them they had to leave too. Popular vote and all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
ITT: Man, feth that guy for what his club voted on!

Pretty much, but some people only value their own opinion and crap on a group that does things differently. Exalted!

No its the fact that you apparently support this stupid decision wholeheartedly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Exalted. Thats about the dumbest thing he could say, I am not a fan of FW but I would never flat out tell people GTFO, I would simply ask to be given a chance to modify my list if its an OP unit or if it was just DKOK I would say lets go!.

What makes him a TFG is his refusal to conform to the rules of the venue and an insistence on his God-given RIGHT to bring his FW army. Not the fact that he buys models from Forgeworld. Sheesh...
No that doesn't make him a TFG. That makes him a player who actually wants to play with his toy soldiers he spent thousands of dollars on, and then understandably being upset when he's told to feth off and play with something else.

 Arkaine wrote:
If you're in a meta where Forgeworld acceptance is the norm, you're likely surrounded by long-term players.

We have a pretty good mixture of both, us older gents, generally play rather weak lists. We are usually fairly casual. Sometimes we may play test the newest OP unit/combo/formation just to see it, but this is always arranged well in advanced and against a tournament competitive list, but this is unusual. In my experience, the newer players seem fascinated by a lot of the forgeworld units, and we are more than happy to take time and show them the rules of everything. Different strokes for different FLG's I guess.

 chalkobob wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
If you're in a meta where Forgeworld acceptance is the norm, you're likely surrounded by long-term players.

We have a pretty good mixture of both, us older gents, generally play rather weak lists. We are usually fairly casual. Sometimes we may play test the newest OP unit/combo/formation just to see it, but this is always arranged well in advanced and against a tournament competitive list, but this is unusual. In my experience, the newer players seem fascinated by a lot of the forgeworld units, and we are more than happy to take time and show them the rules of everything. Different strokes for different FLG's I guess.

I'm glad your FLG is a fan of your meta. Ours will likely reinstate Forgeworld at some point in the future when the newbies are caught up in model count and variety, itching for more and looking towards the Forbidden Zone for it. Democracy being what it is... it'll happen. Eventually.

It's been a pleasure discussing this with you! I'm glad to know there's other veterans playing weak lists for the benefit of the casual players. The concept seems almost foreign judging by some of the responses I've seen.

 Arkaine wrote:
In what way is the election of options a pretense of fairness?

Because you're trying to pretend that your bans are somehow different from banning tactical squads or Eldar because you said "all FW is banned". You're just picking and choosing like anyone else who bans random stuff.

Read the sentence again -- "refuse to play a standard GW army".

I play a standard GW army. I just don't play an army that complies with your personal house-ruled version of 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:
The concept seems almost foreign judging by some of the responses I've seen.

Maybe this wouldn't be the case if you'd pay attention to what people are saying. Most people who want to use FW armies aren't bringing some horrible newbie-crushing abomination. For example, my FW-heavy army is weaker than most competitive codex-only armies, and I'd win a lot more games if I stopped playing with the models I love and just bought the latest codex army.

 Peregrine wrote:
Because you're trying to pretend that your bans are somehow different from banning tactical squads or Eldar because you said "all FW is banned". You're just picking and choosing like anyone else who bans random stuff.

Actually, if you were to read my posts (hah... like you would...), you'll see I state that even Tau (or similarly Eldar) is bannable... it all depends on what the community votes for. Saying all FW is banned is different from banning tactical squads because we're not willing to go through all of Forgeworld and ban individual units for the reasons I described to chalkobob.

 Peregrine wrote:
Maybe this wouldn't be the case if you'd pay attention to what people are saying. Most people who want to use FW armies aren't bringing some horrible newbie-crushing abomination. For example, my FW-heavy army is weaker than most competitive codex-only armies, and I'd win a lot more games if I stopped playing with the models I love and just bought the latest codex army.

And maybe if you were paying to attention to what is being said you'd understand that we're already aware of that. The ability to bring cheese is not what's banned, but the ability to bring models and resources outside what is considered by popular vote to be acceptable in the pool of resources. It's understandable when you realize we're sporting a large number of new players who don't want others to bring models from a source they are unfamiliar with or cannot afford as they haven't even completed their basic core collections yet (read about the Ultramarine guy who only owns three vehicles). Whether you enjoy your army or not, by popular decision FW is not permitted at the local events. If you can't respect that and insist on being right or doing what you want when it's against the wishes of the rest of the community, then you're being an overbearing despot.

 Arkaine wrote:

Funny as I see the statements arguing that Forgeworld must be accepted everywhere regardless of what democratic decision decrees to be arguably more absurd.

That's a nice strawman, but not really addressing my point. People are attacking the logic of your reasoning and statements. If you're going to claim someone is a TFG just because of the army they play, most people aren't going to buy that, and is, in itself, rather classic TFG behavior.


Your group is free to do what it likes, nobody here can force you to do anything, but if you're going to have a discussion on a board like this, and if you're going to advocate for your group's policies, then people are going point out holes in your reasoning for such (and such are a big purpose of boards like this) and call out absurdities in statements like "if you play a DKoK army then you're a TFG".

At this stage, after all the overpowered formations that have showed up in several codices, and the holy triad of Necrons - Eldar - Space Marines standing so so much above than most other codices, refusing to play against FW units or army lists can only be argumented by plain old ignorance. Something everyone can be guilty of at some point in their lives, as much as people should feel self-pressured to cure that ignorance. Nothing from FW is going to be any more overpowered or game-breaking than the current (and freshly new) Eldar codex. Nothing. In fact, many many FW things still have rules and points costs that were written for 5th edition, and have only been slightly adjusted lately.

Yeah, I mean seriously, why on earth would you ban DKoK? You should thank your opponent for selecting a rather weak army but one that is aesthetically beautiful.

They are like CSM. They have a few strong things, but overall your average DKoK army is going to be eaten whole by Eldar or Necrons.

In fact, I'd place DKoK and CSM about on par with one another. DKoK come out ahead because they are a shooting army and shooting is better, but they pay points for things like WS4 on guardsmen (why would you want that?).

Also, nobody cares if you're one of the better players at your LGS. I'm probably the best one at mine now, and I can tell you CSM's are literally junk without Forge World.

That isn't even an issue of FW being overpowered. It's the matter of the basic Codex options being junk. Take the standard Land Raider patterns for example. They're easy to blow up for the price and are lacking in firepower to boot. So why not take the Spartan Assault Tank with Ceramite instead so that my assault troops actually make it to combat for once?

It's not an excuse saying FW is overpowered or not everyone knows the rules or that everyone is required to buy from there. I play Space Marines and buy my models from there merely for aesthetic purposes along with the occasional rules (Spartan for example).

Also people used to sacrifice virgins to volcanoes on a democratic vote. We have to acknowledge what the group does. We don't have to respect it. They're one of the problems with 40k if anything.

'cuz then you can fling in SM player that your puny guardsman, is in fact, as good as that marine in CC.

And then he gets promptly squished because he's not as fast, whomp whomp.

 Bobthehero wrote:
'cuz then you can fling in SM player that your puny guardsman, is in fact, as good as that marine in CC.

And then he gets promptly squished because he's not as fast, whomp whomp.

But seriously, from a gameplay POV, how often has that WS4 been useful?

Generally, if your guardsmen are in CC, something has gone wrong and you want them to die ASAP so that your other guys can shoot whatever charged them.