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@arkaine thanks for that, I didn't see that post. That's fair enough for me, no one is being excluded from regular gaming. It might suck a bit for that individual when events come along, but big picture they aren't being excluded from the group. Happy gaming bud

Remember, the venue is a majority of newbies to Warhammer. They decided upon this rule themselves.

This is rather interesting. In my experience, most newbies have little to no experience with forgeworld (some haven't even heard of it), this can lead to curiosity but seems really peculiar that a majority of new players (which would obviously limit their exposure to forgeworld) would form such strong opinions about it one way or another. Especially such unanimously strong negative opinions that a majority of new players would ban it all together. Is someone more experienced fear mongering about forgeworld at you're venue and influencing their opinions? I mean I understand if a new player goes up against a titan in a lower points game why it would leave a bad taste in their mouth... But your gaming group has already banned LoW and superheavies, which prevents and addresses this problem already. As you mentioned earlier, access to forgeworld can change the way an army is played but in a TAC environment why would this matter? For instance chaos marines now have access to dreadclaw drop pods, this changes the way their lists can be played, but in a TAC environment, more powerful and efficient drop lists already exist in the form of space marines (and to a lesser extent tyranids), so general TAC lists should already be prepared for this. Or for another example, with forgeworld Tau has access to more flyers, which people may not be used to from Tau, but in a TAC environment won't lists already be made to handle flyers from armies with better codex flyers already? Does your gaming group always list tailor or something? I'm really curious to know what experience your gaming group has had with forgeworld that turned off so many new players? What happened at your store? Specifically I mean. You mentioned earlier that people at your store felt marginalized by lists with forgeworld. What lists were people seeing that got them so riled up?

 Arkaine wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
@Arkaine:
All the talk about banning FW for the sake of newer players smacks of an elaborate justification for something no more complicated than, "we don't like FW units and we don't want to play against them so we banned them."
Makes no difference to me, really. Play how you want. What I am curious about is the setting of your meta. How many players participate? How many voted? Where do you guys play? Just sounds weird to me, that such a thing would even take place.

Well if you can't trust someone's statements on the internet and have to invent what you think they said without knowing anything about them, then it can "smack" of just about anything your imagination can come up with.

The meta features over 30 regulars with a few people showing up that I've never seen before once in a while and is hosted in New Jersey. How many voted? All of them. In fact, no one even raised any objections to them once the vote was made. I have yet to hear the words "I wish we allowed Forgeworld here" or anything similar for the other bans. It's a friendly community, we've visited each others' homes for private games, and we're all on a familiar basis with each other. Outsiders are treated with the warmest regard but if you go to ITC and accept their list of rules then it's sensible to do the same anywhere else you happen to go. What smacks of folly here is the amount of judgement against a group that voted this way in the first place, as though any of you would actually show up to our meta or that anyone did would be such an donkey-cave as to find the rules unbearable. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The many have spoken and may continue to do so in the future, possibly even reinstating Forgeworld if it's collectively agreed upon. Until then, rules are rules.

Hey fair enough, I'm obviously only seeing this as some outsider on the internet reading what some guy wrote about a thing. I truly don't have a clue what did/didn't happen. That being said, this whole thing could be a charade and you're making all of it up . Whether or not I believe you is totally irrelevant of course, but it still just sounds very weird to me for the reasons you've given. You and your 29 other weirdos are weird!

I do applaud your level-headedness in responding to all the flaming against you, for what it's worth.

And also thank you for answering the other questions.

wall of text.

It has nothing to do with scaring people, but everything with making the game less fun for people who can't or don't want to buy FW. Have you ever see people say they won't play against the new codex of any army? No, even if they are like eldar people still play against them and their new kits for OP models.

Why yes, we see it all the time here. people refusing to play tau, or eldar, or necrons, or even space marine super friends. People have refused to play these armies, even when these armies are using stock options out of GW codexes. Allowing FW gives the weaker armies a chance to fight back. And if your store has the win at all cost guy who min maxes with his army using every rule ever written, you don't have to play him. OR, you could play him, and just become a better player than he is. It is possible to out play an opponent using a weaker force.

The argument that it should be banned because people can't afford to buy FW? GW plastic kits prices are already a prohibitive cost of entry. Please see, and try to understand, the point I made in the cost of entry statement.

-Cost of Entry?-
Between the player who had a full FW army or the guy with the second hand marines with their styrofoam cup drop pods. Its a game. Enjoy it how ever you can and want to. Don't discriminate against those who have more or less money.

I you really want to play the game, play it. Play with proxies, cut outs / papercraft, styrofoam cups, or post it notes for all I care, while using photos from the codex you took with the camera on your phone. Their are guides online for making half your army out of cereal boxes. People have made amazing armies with a low to no budget.

 chalkobob wrote:
Is someone more experienced fear mongering about forgeworld at you're venue and influencing their opinions?

I strongly suspect that is the case. As well, after seeing Forgeworld and realizing there is this great big world of models untouched out there, they started researching themselves. We had a few weeks of shop talk of all the crazy Forgeworld stuff available, the players were clearly impressed with the stats and almost coveting the models but restrained by the prices (40k itself is expensive too so it's not necessarily a FW thing). After being "awed" by the stuff they heard, saw, and experienced, it was decided that FW wouldn't be played because it would just add more costs to their army. No one wanted to feel pressured into buying Forgeworld stuff and it was already VERY tempting, if you could afford it. Only we veterans could really do so though since we already had all the stuff we needed for normal battles. As for what lists specifically, some Tyranid stuff, an Eldar titan, a lot of Imperial Guard artillery, all kinds of Flyers (with a group that was really skeptical about flyers at first), and a Contemptor Dreadnought.

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
And also thank you for answering the other questions.

Thanks for the kind words and no problem! I enjoy discussing things on here and sharing perspectives.

Allowing FW gives the weaker armies a chance to fight back.

that would only be true if FW made models only for the weak factions. It is the same thing as we have with ally in w40k. Just because a bad army can take ally, it does not make the ally system good. Because a good army with good ally will always be the better then a bad one trying to run good ally..
There was one shop that accepted FW in my city. It ended bad for them when escalation came out and everyone started to buy recast FW stuff. Their sells droped and the shops closed, and now the FW people have no where to play.

 techsoldaten wrote:
We have one guy at the FLGS who is rabidly anti FW. If he sees the models, he will start interrupting games to tell players they are cheating. That's the sum of my anti-FW experience.

Them fighting words. The guy sounds like a little *self censored* of a TFG. Anyone ever slapped him to bring him to his senses?

You can hate FW if you want, it's your right but calling other people cheater for using something within the rules. That's asking for it.

Makumba wrote:

Allowing FW gives the weaker armies a chance to fight back.

that would only be true if FW made models only for the weak factions. It is the same thing as we have with ally in w40k. Just because a bad army can take ally, it does not make the ally system good. Because a good army with good ally will always be the better then a bad one trying to run good ally..
There was one shop that accepted FW in my city. It ended bad for them when escalation came out and everyone started to buy recast FW stuff. Their sells droped and the shops closed, and now the FW people have no where to play.

Until Land Raiders are worth a damn, though, how do you suggest getting Assault units ANYWHERE without a Spartan?
Space Marines are a strong army, but they still have gakky options. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

Also your exaggerated story was hilarious. "FW helped put the store out of business, even when GW sales are plummeting anyway!"

Until Land Raiders are worth a damn, though, how do you suggest getting Assault units ANYWHERE without a Spartan?

why should assault be viable in the first place. Even excluding the fact that may army doesn't assault at all, this is game based around shoting. From what I know assaults armies last time viable in 4th ed and even then through cheap tricks like charging out of unkillable falcons or having 24"charge range from 12-18" away.

Space Marines are a strong army, but they still have gakky options. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

My army doesn't have enough strong options to build a 1500 army. It probably doesn't have strong options at all, but am not a high end tournament player so am not going say that. Although it does seem to be that way as non one runs it as ally or main army at any event, and it has not won a single event in 7th, where armies that are told to be bad like chaos, orcs or nids at least place high sometimes.
Also your exaggerated story was hilarious.

But I didn't people stoped buying stuff from them, because recasts FW models were more efficient and cheaper. In other stores they couldn't use FW rules or FW models, and the sells droped instantly.

Makumba are you nuts? Of course assault should be viable in this game otherwise why even have it?

Just because your faction sucks at it doesn't mean that cc-oriented armies shouldn't be able to have a fair chance at beating you.

Makumba wrote:

why should assault be viable in the first place. Even excluding the fact that may army doesn't assault at all, this is game based around shoting. From what I know assaults armies last time viable in 4th ed and even then through cheap tricks like charging out of unkillable falcons or having 24"charge range from 12-18" away.

Wait...so your argument is that the assault based army shouldn't be viable, because you think a huge chunk of the games combat shouldn't viable in general? That's a heavy bias if I have ever heard one

The game is about shoting. It has been about shoting for 4 editions. Why should it suddenly be about assault?

Just because your faction sucks at it doesn't mean that cc-oriented armies shouldn't be able to have a fair chance at beating you.

The only time assault was viable, was when it had nothing to do with fairness. There was nothing fair about rhino rush, or charging out of falcons. Also aren't the TWC armies and biker armies perfectly viable, and those can assault and shot at the same time. Marines already have grav, bikers, drop pods and skyhammer. They don't need more stuff to get even more builds.

Why does one have to dominate? Why can't we hope (heh, hope...) for them to be equal at some point in the future?


So you think Orks, Tyranids and Chaos (and others maybe) should suck forevermore because they prefer getting close to sitting back from afar?

Given that there is a forge world article in every white dwarf I think that speaks to how GW views it. And from a balance argument forgeworld is honestly better than the core codexes.

Why do you have to ban it? Why can't you just see the cheese and not play said cheese? You know there's nothing wrong with IG or CSM trying to pump up their total ass lists.
If its FW, and you're scared of the unknown, then ask to see the rules for the model/models.
If they can't provide the rules, they're sketchy anyways, and you shouldn't play them.
These same rules apply to TOs. If the Tournament Organizers look at the lists, they should be able to detect the varying levels of FW cheese and stop that.
Unless they're running 64-man brackets, which I would like to find out what magic Warhammer warehouse you're running the tournament out of then, so I can particpate.
Hell, make the participants write out their lists and point values prior to the tournament and submit them to the TO.
You can even put in a block for FW models.
MTG does it and it works, why can't 40K.

FW is only just being accepted into standard games (much like SHV/GC).
Had a game in store yesterday with my mate against two other people (who were more regular than both of us). One person was playing Ravenwing, my mate had a Relic Whirlwind Scorpius w/ Battle of Keylek for his SW. Staff knew what it did and could provide the rules from the back of the store yet still produced a Lemun Russ for my friend to use instead of the Whirwind (taking time to flick throgh the rules for it) and in the process, make his army unbound so couldn't benefit from the WS5 TWC...my friend wasn't impressed. After the battle my friend told me they refused to fire it out of principle and that the RW player was smug about making their covers. One thing I do remember is that the RW player came over to my game with my mate to watch (I was running Zhadsnark Da Rippa, who was well known within the community so less of an issue). The RW player said to my opponent that real men don't use FW in a 'superiority complex' manner.

I guess when you can't produced rules as easily as you can the GW Codex/BRB rules, people are going to be a little wary over new things. Still, I felt like their attitude stunk.

My view is simple, rock up with whatever you have and let's have fun. The only caveat being give me a fairly high level appraisal of what your army can do if I am not familiar with it, I don't need to turn every page of the rulebook just "bob and co are really stabby and these guys have D weapons..." Great, let's get it on!

Makumba wrote:

Until Land Raiders are worth a damn, though, how do you suggest getting Assault units ANYWHERE without a Spartan?

why should assault be viable in the first place. Even excluding the fact that may army doesn't assault at all, this is game based around shoting. From what I know assaults armies last time viable in 4th ed and even then through cheap tricks like charging out of unkillable falcons or having 24"charge range from 12-18" away.

Space Marines are a strong army, but they still have gakky options. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

My army doesn't have enough strong options to build a 1500 army. It probably doesn't have strong options at all, but am not a high end tournament player so am not going say that. Although it does seem to be that way as non one runs it as ally or main army at any event, and it has not won a single event in 7th, where armies that are told to be bad like chaos, orcs or nids at least place high sometimes.
Also your exaggerated story was hilarious.

But I didn't people stoped buying stuff from them, because recasts FW models were more efficient and cheaper. In other stores they couldn't use FW rules or FW models, and the sells droped instantly.

If you're saying specific options should be bad, you're completely irrational.

For old gamers, there's still a bias of pay to win brokeness. Whether true or not is irrelevant. It used to be viewed that if you wanted to win, just buy super OP Forgeworld stuff. So now when some people hear FW, they still have that PTSD of olden times.
Young bloods are wary of it because it's not familiar and doesn't "appear" to be a part of the game, more like a Mod for Skyrim done by some guy in Russia. Less than official.

But it seems to me that FW stuff is just fine. No more and no less bonkers than GW stuff.

Soooooooo.....

Back on topic. To the OP, as someone mentioned, somewhere in the thread, the problem with Forgeworld otiginates in the late 80's with the various resin casting companies such as ArmorCast who created products that were talked about by GW but had no models. These were licensed models under the GW brand name. Originally they were tanks and titans and only the big, expensive, bad ass stuff was created.

Fast forward to the present day and time and we find Forgeworld is now fully integrated into GW proper. They now make full armies (or conversion parts for their rules) meant specifically for use in everyday games of 40k. Some people can't get over the past though. Instead of Line Item Vetoing specific pieces (such as the Hornet which invalidates 2 items in the Eldar army and surpasses them both for a lesser cost) they ban the entire range and make spurious claims of cost prohibition or "legality" in the everyday games they are specifically meant for.

Things have changed over the years and most of the old arguements are clung to regardless of their validity. The best way to approach FW is the same as any GW product: make sure you have the rules in hand and be cordial towards your opponent by explaining anything out of the ordinary. Forthright and sporting behavior will nip most of these problems in the bud.

 Frozocrone wrote:
FW is only just being accepted into standard games (much like SHV/GC).
Had a game in store yesterday with my mate against two other people (who were more regular than both of us). One person was playing Ravenwing, my mate had a Relic Whirlwind Scorpius w/ Battle of Keylek for his SW. Staff knew what it did and could provide the rules from the back of the store yet still produced a Lemun Russ for my friend to use instead of the Whirwind (taking time to flick throgh the rules for it) and in the process, make his army unbound so couldn't benefit from the WS5 TWC...my friend wasn't impressed. After the battle my friend told me they refused to fire it out of principle and that the RW player was smug about making their covers. One thing I do remember is that the RW player came over to my game with my mate to watch (I was running Zhadsnark Da Rippa, who was well known within the community so less of an issue). The RW player said to my opponent that real men don't use FW in a 'superiority complex' manner.

I guess when you can't produced rules as easily as you can the GW Codex/BRB rules, people are going to be a little wary over new things. Still, I felt like their attitude stunk.

"Real men don't use FW".

Heh.

Real men obviously use Eldar, Decurion Necrons and Spesss Mehreeens with their latest cheesy formations.

The more I think about it, the more it seems there're quite a bunch of TFG/WAAC players that have become used to be always one step ahead of most opponents thanks to the unbalanced codex system, and so FW crashes the party for them as it allows non-top tier armies extra options they actually need in order to, at least, compete against the top tier.

 Korinov wrote:
"Real men don't use FW".

Heh.

Real men obviously use Eldar, Decurion Necrons and Spesss Mehreeens with their latest cheesy formations.

The more I think about it, the more it seems there're quite a bunch of TFG/WAAC players that have become used to be always one step ahead of most opponents thanks to the unbalanced codex system, and so FW crashes the party for them as it allows non-top tier armies extra options they actually need in order to, at least, compete against the top tier.

I think it was just that guy to be honest - other people happily accept FW in my meta. On the same day as this incident we had a killbursta, malanthrope and I think there was a FW knight.

 purplkrush wrote:


Fast forward to the present day and time and we find Forgeworld is now fully integrated into GW proper. They now make full armies (or conversion parts for their rules) meant specifically for use in everyday games of 40k. Some people can't get over the past though. Instead of Line Item Vetoing specific pieces (such as the Hornet which invalidates 2 items in the Eldar army and surpasses them both for a lesser cost) they ban the entire range and make spurious claims of cost prohibition or "legality" in the everyday games they are specifically meant for.

Things have changed over the years and most of the old arguements are clung to regardless of their validity. The best way to approach FW is the same as any GW product: make sure you have the rules in hand and be cordial towards your opponent by explaining anything out of the ordinary. Forthright and sporting behavior will nip most of these problems in the bud.

That is so true. What shop is going to sell normal preds, if FW are better. Why buy anything IG, when the better way to go is to buy recast FW and supplement it with some ally. Normal tacticals, devastors? FW recasts are cheaper and some even look better. And have better rules too.

If you're saying specific options should be bad, you're completely irrational.

No what I ment was that when they allowed FW, people stoped buying models at the store. In other stores they couldn't use FW. So after the FW "supporting" shop closed, they stoped having a place to play. They also almost killed the community as a whole, because before escalation was baned here, titan eldar list were in top 7 out of 16. They were worse to play against then eldar are right now, as much as it is hard to believe.

Makumba wrote:

That is so true. What shop is going to sell normal preds, if FW are better. Why buy anything IG, when the better way to go is to buy recast FW and supplement it with some ally. Normal tacticals, devastors? FW recasts are cheaper and some even look better. And have better rules too.

If we're talking about Recasts, well, that's a problem for a shop that doesn't just apply to FW by any means. Why would anyone bother with a Knight kit when they can buy 3 recasts for the same price? FW really doesn't have anything to do with this issue.

Likewise, finding relaibly and trustworthy recasters is not the easiest thing in the world, and varies wildly depending on where you are. If you're playing in Russia, I'm sure recasts are far more convenient than actual store-bought retail product. If you're living in the UK, this is probably not the case.

Makumba wrote:

Show what? Even if he does have a IA rule book, which I doubt he has with most FW stuff being recasts,

People not having rules for their army/models/formations is a problem full stop, not a FW problem. If you're allowing people to play without having the rules that's a big problem generally in my opinion.

Makumba wrote:
how do I know if it is the proper one. I can check if a codex is new or old just by looking at the cover. I can't do that with a FW book.

I would say that this is the only legitimate complaint with FW stuff - how do you check that the specific version of the rules that the player has is the current and correct one? There desperately needs to be a master list of which books contain the current rules for every unit on their website.

I've got loads of FW stuff and own many of the books and I find it very difficult to be sure that I'm using the current version of the rules for everything.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I would say that this is the only legitimate complaint with FW stuff - how do you check that the specific version of the rules that the player has is the current and correct one?

The same way you do for codex rules. GW doesn't have a list of what rules are current or any way to verify that a digital codex hasn't been altered. In fact, GW doesn't even say that new codices replace the previous one, it's just an assumption that we have made as players.

Makumba wrote:

That is so true. What shop is going to sell normal preds, if FW are better. Why buy anything IG, when the better way to go is to buy recast FW and supplement it with some ally. Normal tacticals, devastors? FW recasts are cheaper and some even look better. And have better rules too.

No what I ment was that when they allowed FW, people stoped buying models at the store. In other stores they couldn't use FW. So after the FW "supporting" shop closed, they stoped having a place to play. They also almost killed the community as a whole, because before escalation was baned here, titan eldar list were in top 7 out of 16. They were worse to play against then eldar are right now, as much as it is hard to believe.

I'm not sure where to start here as so very much of this is wrong.

1. If GW is making gak product then that's their problem. Stop making gak product. This rolls right into number 2 with:

2. GW needs to stop deceiving and deluding people by keeping up the appearance of seperation between FW and GW proper.

3. They are deliberately creating a problem because they are either too lazy to merge their departments, too lazy to write good rules, too lazy to keep their product lines up to snuff or too incompetent to do any and possibly all of the above. Either way, they deserve to be supplanted at this point.

4. Players using 'recasts' knowingly, deserve whatever happens next. If they're not supporting the store and product lines then those things will no longer be readily available to them.

Aside from the odd army such as DKOK or EDT most of FW is meant to be a supplement to the main GW armies. Even if you allowed FW in games it's not as if you're going to see whole roll outs of every army available.

Rules should always be present. If someone rolled up to my table with Grey Knights and no book I'd send him on his way. This doesn't just apply to FW.

All around, people just don't seem to able to use their brains and basic common sense, but this is the internet. If you have no store but have some players then simply get some terrain together and play at someone's house. And please don't come around whining that amongst 6-10 players absolutely no one has space and/or no one has terrain. Many of us started out with kleenex boxes and potted plants for terrain; stacked books and soda cans are no less legitimate.

Regardless, as has been said before, talk to your opponents and hammer out what works best for you individually and as a group. If you want to game together you'll figure out what works to make that happen, otherwise you just need to find other players. In this day and age it's not that tough.

 purplkrush wrote:
3. They are deliberately creating a problem because they are either too lazy to merge their departments, too lazy to write good rules, too lazy to keep their product lines up to snuff or too incompetent to do any and possibly all of the above. Either way, they deserve to be supplanted at this point.

Doubt it's even that, you'll see power creep, overpowered combos, and faction superiority in any competitive game that continually releases new content for people to buy. MMOs get people to keep chasing the latest OP epic gear to keep them spending, card games like Magic release new sets with higher efficiency and better keywords that have strong fan favorite decks that rise to the top, Hearthstone throws out the latest OP cards to keep the meta interesting and changing, and a game like League of Legends puts out new and broken characters that invalidate older ones to get people spending. Even games that are years old and re-released are usually unable to maintain balance (like the new VS system with Hulk/Thanos/Starlord dominating the meta). Even a game like Dominion can be unbalanced despite all players using the same card pool. Certain interactions are mathematically superior to others and those are the way you win.

Even when you completely WIPE the board, balance is rarely a given. Fighting games continually output their latest sequel for people to buy and it always devolves into Tier List discussions. Some characters are great, some are awful, some are actually balanced and some are banned from competitive play. Heck, even in REAL life, some football teams are simply better than others, with more money to spend on drafting the best players in the league and creating an overpowered "deck" of juggernauts. In Fantasy life, some Bloodbowl teams are flat out superior to others, another Warhammer travesty of balance. Same with the game of Monopoly and the obsession over certain spaces of prime real estate.

Balance is hard. Games Workshop may not even try, but there are plenty of companies that do and still can't get it right. If anything, GW might be the smart ones from a business by not even bothering to try, but I doubt it given how ticked off it makes their customers.

My Forgeworld books have GW logos on them. What is the issue? It works like any data slate or supplement released.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I would say that this is the only legitimate complaint with FW stuff - how do you check that the specific version of the rules that the player has is the current and correct one?

The same way you do for codex rules. GW doesn't have a list of what rules are current or any way to verify that a digital codex hasn't been altered. In fact, GW doesn't even say that new codices replace the previous one, it's just an assumption that we have made as players.

But you can go onto GW's website and see what the current codex looks like so you can tell if that's the current marine codex (for example) or a previous version.

With some FW units having multiple versions of their rules in books that are still available to buy it's highly confusing.

You can go and buy a book from FW today and yet some of the rules it contains will have been replaced by versions in subsequent books. They acknowledge this problem because the IA:Apoc books contained an index of every unit (GW and FW) noting which book(s) had the current rules. (we also clearly see that FW, at least, does intend that newer versions of the rules replace older versions) That was great except it was immediately out of date. A living document on their website would be a relatively small investment of effort but would make using FW models much easier.