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Escalation was the GW gateway book for adding FW into 'normal' games.
Then 7th added the same rules, but not the profiles.

Stronghold assault was the same, for fortifications.

 Jancoran wrote:


As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin.

Using FW to buy Wins? HAHAHAHAHA!

Want me to make a list of FW models that are cheaper than a Wraithknight or Riptide or Stormsurge?

Yeah god forbids someone likes Elysians or Death Korps.

Don't even bother replying to Jancoran. Peregrine already ripped him a new one and I'm still awaiting his reply.

What's the real point of banning FW when scatterbikes exist?

Martel732 wrote:
What's the real point of banning FW when scatterbikes exist?

Because reading rules before a game is too confusing for new players.

I hope someone gets that reference.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Buy wins?
Isnt that buying a new Eldar or Tau army?

Nope.

The Eldar are kind of an issue unto themselves. That codex is okay if you're only allowed 0-1 Super heavies. Its mean but its not indestructible at that point.

And so no.

Tau Empire has always had a simple answer: smash them in melee. Even just three Marines can end an entire Fire Warrior unit, so even with overwatch its worth skipping your shooting phase and GETTING there.

I cannot solve every ill. What I can do is ELIMINATE a huge chunk of burden from players, while recognizing that there will never be a perfect game. If you live in the fantasy land of "theres a perfect game out there somewhere" that's fine. I don't.

But we can stop players from making it ever more expensive and in some cases less broken. thats a goal we CAN acheive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't even bother replying to Jancoran. Peregrine already ripped him a new one and I'm still awaiting his reply.

I wouldnt know. I put Peregrine on ignore like five years ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin.

Using FW to buy Wins? HAHAHAHAHA!

Want me to make a list of FW models that are cheaper than a Wraithknight or Riptide or Stormsurge?

Yeah god forbids someone likes Elysians or Death Korps.

Both those examples are, as YOU know, on the low end of offenders and they get used for normal games all the time. Elysians are not insane. Most would say under powered. But that isn't actually the point, which you, and others, are missing. So play Elysians. I don't care if you do. As I said. Just not in tournaments.

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Buy wins?
Isnt that buying a new Eldar or Tau army?

Nope.

The Eldar are kind of an issue unto themselves. That codex is okay if you're only allowed 0-1 Super heavies. Its mean but its not indestructible at that point.

And so no.

Tau Empire has always had a simple answer: smash them in melee. Even just three Marines can end an entire Fire Warrior unit, so even with overwatch its worth skipping your shooting phase and GETTING there.

I cannot solve every ill. What I can do is ELIMINATE a huge chunk of burden from players, while recognizing that there will never be a perfect game. If you live in the fantasy land of "theres a perfect game out there somewhere" that's fine. I don't.

But we can stop players from making it ever more expensive and in some cases less broken. thats a goal we CAN acheive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't even bother replying to Jancoran. Peregrine already ripped him a new one and I'm still awaiting his reply.

I wouldnt know. I put Peregrine on ignore like five years ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


As a T.O. (I've run four events, three of them ITC in the last 3 months) I'm in charge of the overall experience for the majority, not pandering to a vocal minority who have gone out and spent $1,000 to buy wins or indulge their inner munchkin.

Using FW to buy Wins? HAHAHAHAHA!

Want me to make a list of FW models that are cheaper than a Wraithknight or Riptide or Stormsurge?

Yeah god forbids someone likes Elysians or Death Korps.

Both those examples are, as YOU know, on the low end of offenders and they get used for normal games all the time. Elysians are not insane. Most would say under powered. But that isn't actually the point, which you, and others, are missing. So play Elysians. I don't care if you do. As I said. Just not in tournaments.

Why not in tournaments?

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Buy wins?
Isnt that buying a new Eldar or Tau army?

Nope.

The Eldar are kind of an issue unto themselves. That codex is okay if you're only allowed 0-1 Super heavies. Its mean but its not indestructible at that point.

And so no.

Tau Empire has always had a simple answer: smash them in melee. Even just three Marines can end an entire Fire Warrior unit, so even with overwatch its worth skipping your shooting phase and GETTING there.

I cannot solve every ill. What I can do is ELIMINATE a huge chunk of burden from players, while recognizing that there will never be a perfect game. If you live in the fantasy land of "theres a perfect game out there somewhere" that's fine. I don't.

But we can stop players from making it ever more expensive and in some cases less broken. thats a goal we CAN acheive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't even bother replying to Jancoran. Peregrine already ripped him a new one and I'm still awaiting his reply.

I wouldnt know. I put Peregrine on ignore like five years ago.

Scatbikes. Tau overwatch and shooting (remind me again HOW your getting there?) Forgeworld is nothing when compared to these monsters and it can actually help many of us weaker armies in dealing with them.

 Jancoran wrote:
But we can stop players from making it ever more expensive and in some cases less broken. thats a goal we CAN acheive.

By banning codex rules.

 Jancoran wrote:


But we can stop players from making it ever more expensive and in some cases less broken. thats a goal we CAN acheive.

This is where your theory fundamentally collapses.

Codex books are coming out at Imperial Armour book prices the DA and SM codex books are the same price as Imperial Armour 4, Imperial Armour Apocalypse, or Imperial Armour Aeronautica or IA 9 & 10 together. Infantry and Character kits are coming out at FW prices, that new Cult Mechanicus Magos Dominus is actually *MORE* than FW's Magos Dominus. GW is hamfisting ever bigger things into the game, and GW is taking over many of those more insanely big units.

In fact, for things like Titans, the rules for such are entirely GW written at this point. GW's core studio writs the rules for Reveneant, Phantom, Warhound, and Reaver TItans, as well as the rules that allow them to be taken in non-Apoc games. Banning Forgeworld rules does nothing to prevent these from being used in a normal game. FW just casts the resin.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Buy wins?
Isnt that buying a new Eldar or Tau army?

Nope.

The Eldar are kind of an issue unto themselves. That codex is okay if you're only allowed 0-1 Super heavies. Its mean but its not indestructible at that point.

And so no.

Tau Empire has always had a simple answer: smash them in melee. Even just three Marines can end an entire Fire Warrior unit, so even with overwatch its worth skipping your shooting phase and GETTING there.

I cannot solve every ill. What I can do is ELIMINATE a huge chunk of burden from players, while recognizing that there will never be a perfect game. If you live in the fantasy land of "theres a perfect game out there somewhere" that's fine. I don't.

But we can stop players from making it ever more expensive and in some cases less broken. thats a goal we CAN acheive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Don't even bother replying to Jancoran. Peregrine already ripped him a new one and I'm still awaiting his reply.

I wouldnt know. I put Peregrine on ignore like five years ago.

Scatbikes. Tau overwatch and shooting (remind me again HOW your getting there?) Forgeworld is nothing when compared to these monsters and it can actually help many of us weaker armies in dealing with them.

Indeed. Forge World doesn't present any more broken options then the rest of the game does, and I still haven't seen any FW thing as broken as a Wraith Knight.

Only thing that FW does is provide different options for you to take, most of which are just variants of stuff that you already had anyways.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's the real point of banning FW when scatterbikes exist?

Because reading rules before a game is too confusing for new players.

I hope someone gets that reference.

By the time i'm "reading your rules" Ive had no time to adjust my list for the possibility of facing it, nor given any thought to what strategy I might need to adopt or change. Minimize that all you like.

But let me turn the tables: since you're so convinced that it "doesnt matter" then why bring it? If you can play just as well without it then why are you DEMANDING it be allowed? If what you SAY is true then you can certainly afford NOT to bring it. Its a tournament so you clearly brought your army to win. CLEARLY you thought this combination gave you the best chance... Yet you want me to accept that it makes no difference? Lol. Is that the least honest thing you've ever heard of or what?

I know a couple guys who go to tournaments because they just like getting three games in in a day. they know they are going to be donors and they play whatever they own. Other than those rare birds who dont mind being donors, everyone else who brought that stuff did it to win. TO WIN.

So suggesting that I can just read up on it on the spot is just tripe. It really is. Even if I (by which I mean your opponent) do, and even if I understand it, it clearly advantages you and disadvantages him as he did not know to prepare for it.

"what... Drop pods you can charge from... wait... i thought... huh... What the.... So do i deploy nothing? Do i...". That's an advantage.

And then theres the FAQ's. There is a huge amount of information and FAQ's that you now need to worry about because if you dont, there are PLENTY of dicks who will take advantage of you not knowing them. Those that deal with the Forge World specifically, that is.

So there are numerous good reasons to simply not inflict that on the opponent. I showed up at a tournament last Saturday and faced... an almost entire army of Forge World Tyranids. I had NO idea what they could do. We had to spend a good fifteen minutes going through all the units and part of that was "okay now wait that was this unit, so what was this one again?" Its a TIMED event! And we just shot fifteen minutes out the door so that I could readjust my thinking on ALL of it.

I did win. handily. but that wasnt the point. the entire game was a miasma of confusion because he explained AFTER the fact that this "entry that i read" included some obscure reference to a rule he forget to mention which was that their Hammer of Wrath was AP 2!!! D3 hammer of Wrath at AP 2. He obliterated half a unit with it before we even swung, and I could have avoided that had i realized it just by multicharging on my turn. I didn't. So i didnt.

I won the game so I should now be okay with that kind of EXPERIENCE as a player? No. the game sucked. It was not fun. My opponent was fine but the experience sucked. I took almost everything off the board but it wasn't a fun game. I left grumbling, and my opponent was one of the nicest guys ever.

Sorry if you cannot understand the hate towards Forge World but like i say: as a TO, i have a job to do and I worked hard to resurrect the hobby in my area from 6-8 players showing up at tournies to the 28 we have now. That took serious work and lobbying and I am not going to blow it all up and END enthusiasm for tournaments by allowing everything.

Not even ITC is blind to the need for balance. They ban and limit all kinds of stuff. they dont draw the line where I do, but they draw a line. So this isnt foreign thinking.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:


Scatbikes. Tau overwatch and shooting (remind me again HOW your getting there?) Forgeworld is nothing when compared to these monsters and it can actually help many of us weaker armies in dealing with them.

Wait. Your entire argument comes down to Scatterbikes being in the game? Lol. Come on. And again... AGAIN... I have to tell you that my issue isnt entirely the power issue. Scatter bikes are not magical. They cant dodge my dominion squads and those aren't an army thats well regarded. So if i can nuclear strike the hell outta Eldar using Sisters of Battle, you're going to tell me you need Forge World. Is that what you're trying to tell me?

 Jancoran wrote:
By the time i'm "reading your rules" Ive had no time to adjust my list for the possibility of facing it, nor given any thought to what strategy I might need to adopt or change. Minimize that all you like.

The same thing applies to codex rules. I'm not familiar with Codex: Tyranids, so Tyranids should be banned.

At least now you admit the real point of your argument: it's about being afraid of losing. You don't want to allow the metagame to change and risk having your perfect list and strategy become useless.

But let me turn the tables: since you're so convinced that it "doesnt matter" then why bring it?

Because it's MY ARMY? Why should I have to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars to buy a new army, which I won't enjoy as much for fluff/model reasons, to comply with your ridiculous house rules?

"what... Drop pods you can charge from... wait... i thought... huh... What the.... So do i deploy nothing? Do i...". That's an advantage.

Those don't exist anymore.

And then theres the FAQ's. There is a huge amount of information and FAQ's that you now need to worry about because if you dont, there are PLENTY of dicks who will take advantage of you not knowing them. Those that deal with the Forge World specifically, that is.

IOW, ban codex rules. You do realize that YMDC is full of codex and core-rule arguments, right?

So there are numerous good reasons to simply not inflict that on the opponent. I showed up at a tournament last Saturday and faced... an almost entire army of Forge World Tyranids. I had NO idea what they could do. We had to spend a good fifteen minutes going through all the units and part of that was "okay now wait that was this unit, so what was this one again?" Its a TIMED event! And we just shot fifteen minutes out the door so that I could readjust my thinking on ALL of it.

How is this any different from me playing against a pure codex Tyranids list? I would only have myself to blame for not learning about the Tyranid codex, so why should it be any different when it comes to FW rules? Why do we suddenly assume that anything a player doesn't feel like learning about should be banned?

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's the real point of banning FW when scatterbikes exist?

Because reading rules before a game is too confusing for new players.

I hope someone gets that reference.

By the time i'm "reading your rules" Ive had no time to adjust my list for the possibility of facing it, nor given any thought to what strategy I might need to adopt or change. Minimize that all you like.

But let me turn the tables: since you're so convinced that it "doesnt matter" then why bring it? If you can play just as well without it then why are you DEMANDING it be allowed? If what you SAY is true then you can certainly afford NOT to bring it. Its a tournament so you clearly brought your army to win. CLEARLY you thought this combination gave you the best chance... Yet you want me to accept that it makes no difference? Lol. Is that the least honest thing you've ever heard of or what?

I know a couple guys who go to tournaments because they just like getting three games in in a day. they know they are going to be donors and they play whatever they own. Other than those rare birds who dont mind being donors, everyone else who brought that stuff did it to win. TO WIN.

So suggesting that I can just read up on it on the spot is just tripe. It really is. Even if I (by which I mean your opponent) do, and even if I understand it, it clearly advantages you and disadvantages him as he did not know to prepare for it.

"what... Drop pods you can charge from... wait... i thought... huh... What the.... So do i deploy nothing? Do i...". That's an advantage.

And then theres the FAQ's. There is a huge amount of information and FAQ's that you now need to worry about because if you dont, there are PLENTY of dicks who will take advantage of you not knowing them. Those that deal with the Forge World specifically, that is.

So there are numerous good reasons to simply not inflict that on the opponent. I showed up at a tournament last Saturday and faced... an almost entire army of Forge World Tyranids. I had NO idea what they could do. We had to spend a good fifteen minutes going through all the units and part of that was "okay now wait that was this unit, so what was this one again?" Its a TIMED event! And we just shot fifteen minutes out the door so that I could readjust my thinking on ALL of it.

I did win. handily. but that wasnt the point. the entire game was a miasma of confusion because he explained AFTER the fact that this "entry that i read" included some obscure reference to a rule he forget to mention which was that their Hammer of Wrath was AP 2!!! D3 hammer of Wrath at AP 2. He obliterated half a unit with it before we even swung, and I could have avoided that had i realized it just by multicharging on my turn. I didn't. So i didnt.

I won the game so I should now be okay with that kind of EXPERIENCE as a player? No. the game sucked. It was not fun. My opponent was fine but the experience sucked. I took almost everything off the board but it wasn't a fun game. I left grumbling, and my opponent was one of the nicest guys ever.

Sorry if you cannot understand the hate towards Forge World but like i say: as a TO, i have a job to do and I worked hard to resurrect the hobby in my area from 6-8 players showing up at tournies to the 28 we have now. That took serious work and lobbying and I am not going to blow it all up and END enthusiasm for tournaments by allowing everything.

Not even ITC is blind to the need for balance. They ban and limit all kinds of stuff. they dont draw the line where I do, but they draw a line. So this isnt foreign thinking.

In a casual game. I want you to allow it because its the rules for the models that I bought and decided I wanted to play. They made the rules for me to play it, and you are telling me I can't just because you don't like it.


A suggestion: If you have any hard core gamers in your group that want a competitive tournament you should have a tourney set up for them with no restraints on FW, formations, etc. IN ADDITION to your highly regulated tournament with house rules cutting out all of those things you think will make new players turn away.

Some people (like us peeps on the internet) like all that stuff, and think its fun. There's a chance people in your group do too.

i don't understand treating forge world different than any other codex. you have the internet, if you want to get a good idea of how a unit works it takes seconds to search it. banning forgeworld cause it requires you to read more seems as sensible as banning dark eldar cause they are rare and weird and different.

I haven't read the new Tau codex, and I don't want to buy it or bother with asking someone who has.

So banning it seems like the most rational decision.

It seems that the main reasons for not taking forgeworld boil down to it means changes how armies will play, it adds a barrier of entry for new players, and/or they are not familiar with the rules and do not want to spend the time and money to learn.

The fact that forgeworld changes how armies play only really matters if you are list tailoring against these armies. Forgeworld does not introduce any shocking, new mechanics in their lists that you do not have to plan on fighting with your regular TAC army. The example of the Dreadclaw providing deep strike for CSM does change the tactics for their army, but you should still have whatever anti-deepstrike weapons that you normally have to fight SM or GK. Another example would be the forgeworld ork HQ allowing them to run an almost all biker army, which would be difficult for the opponent if they were tailoring for boy spam, but would be countered by whatever the opponent brought to take care of SM or DA biker lists. Forgeworld's rules do not introduce any entirely new mechanics to the game and any TAC army's list and tactics should not be able to deal with (but if you are tailoring, then you deserve the beating that you are about to receive).

Forgeworld does not add any more barriers of entry to new players than the existence of any other army. New players are already entering into a hobby that they know will have large amounts of backstory behind each of the armies. The models are not much different than those encountered in the codices, which new players would be equally clueless about. Unless you are starting new players with forgeworld super heavies, then there really isn't that much change from teaching them using only codices except for the opportunity to expand their collections. Forgeworld's units also have the assurance that their rules will probably remain fairly stable, meaning that new players aren't risking GW announcing their expensive codex is now invalid while handing out nerfs to all of their new purchases. If anything, forgeworld offers more ways to get into the hobby by offering armies that are not represented in the codices like elfish pirates IN SPACE (corsairs) and awesome gas mask soldiers (DKoK).

I do not own a copy of every rule book, and instead insist on people bringing their own rules, whether its codex, dataslate, or forgeworld, to the gaming table. If you are unsure of what any unit does, you are free to ask before the game, during the game, and come and talk to me after the game and I will do my best to explain it clearly while allowing you to read its rules. If you want after the game is over, I can even discuss tactics. This is the digital age, I have several codexes in scanned pdf form that I used to check out rules. Arguing about the price of an imperial army book is pointless when they do not cost much more than a codex and contain more content than a codex.

[sarcasm] I second the proposal that we should do away with all of these pointless supplements. We don't need forgeworld, escalation, fortifications, or codices when we have the main rule book! In the book I was able to find the stats for the following:
The book does not give what each model's wargear is or how many points they have, so just take however many seems fair AoS style and equip them with whatever you model onto the figures (WYSIWYG is a main rule book rule). This will ensure that we don't need to deal with the silliness of all those complicated factions.

New players won't feel intimidated by a game consisting of six different base models (really five because you are supposed to remove an artillery gun model when there are no crew models, which are not present in these rules), there are no different factions which can surprise you with their tactics, and it is really easy to learn all of the rules. [/sarcasm]

 Jancoran wrote:
as a TO, i have a job to do and I worked hard to resurrect the hobby in my area from 6-8 players showing up at tournies to the 28 we have now.

Sounds like our scene too! Weird how popular the anti-Forgeworld metas are, huh? Like the big old sign of No Forgeworld is listed on the event and Tourney ads, yet people still come. Mind-boggling.

 Vaktathi wrote:

This is where your theory fundamentally collapses.

Codex books are coming out at Imperial Armour book prices the DA and SM codex books are the same price as Imperial Armour 4, Imperial Armour Apocalypse, or Imperial Armour Aeronautica or IA 9 & 10 together. Infantry and Character kits are coming out at FW prices, that new Cult Mechanicus Magos Dominus is actually *MORE* than FW's Magos Dominus. GW is hamfisting ever bigger things into the game, and GW is taking over many of those more insanely big units.

In fact, for things like Titans, the rules for such are entirely GW written at this point. GW's core studio writs the rules for Reveneant, Phantom, Warhound, and Reaver TItans, as well as the rules that allow them to be taken in non-Apoc games. Banning Forgeworld rules does nothing to prevent these from being used in a normal game. FW just casts the resin.

IS that where it "fundamentally " collapses? hehehe.

It's not. What you just argued here is that the book costs are similar now sometimes. You're arguing that CERTAIN models are near as expensive as Forge World models (though if you were any kind of fair minded, you'd concede that most are still NOT at that level). This apparently is an attempt to battle my argument over money? I think? And if it is, then the response is obvious and has already been stated: it is a whole other layer to the game financially to keep up with it in addition to the base layer we already need to accept. So if they want us to accept them, then they need to be in the codex... which means... they need to be playtested as much as GW normally does and GW needs to dare to make them a true part of the baseline which is an iffy proposition. They would then need to be produced for the same prices, and the codex cost has to be whatever that means it is. The reason GW wont is that they like money. So do you so its not like they are evil for it. But its a fact. Forge World gives them a cost leverage.

I do not intend to inflict another level of cost and time expenditure on my players. Not going to happen. I'm also not going to sour their tournament experiences with "GOtcha!" moments from obscure units when they have their HANDS FULL just learning how their normal opponents rules work!

You should take a longer term view of the hobby. It would help. The short term Me, me, me, me me, I wanna play with my toys attitude is fine when you're in casual games with friends who want to endure it. Tournaments though are what drive sales and keep the hobby going, and bring oldies back as well as expose the hobby to the newbs who seea tournament and their mind is blown. And as Fantasy saw, once you stop getting people willing to go to those, the sales dry up big time. Putting out more stuff works for a bit too. They floated Fantasy for a while on that. But the diminishing interest in the tournament experience was what put the nail in the coffin.

40K isnt immune to the same thing. It can fail. when people don't go to tournies, or stop caring about the arms race, you'd quickly find that out. Change causes sales, but only if the people who like your game find a motivation for changing and tournaments are the biggest reasons to care. they stopped caring in Fantasy. Dead as a door nail.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:


In a casual game. I want you to allow it because its the rules for the models that I bought and decided I wanted to play. They made the rules for me to play it, and you are telling me I can't just because you don't like it.


A suggestion: If you have any hard core gamers in your group that want a competitive tournament you should have a tourney set up for them with no restraints on FW, formations, etc. IN ADDITION to your highly regulated tournament with house rules cutting out all of those things you think will make new players turn away.

Some people (like us peeps on the internet) like all that stuff, and think its fun. There's a chance people in your group do too.

I have repeatedly said in this thread how UN-opposed I am in a casual game to having people play it. Why would I have an opinion about what two people want to do to one another.

I'm talking tournaments. And we turn no one away. We just tell them to access their vast collections and bring the other stuff. and not shockingly, they have fun doing that also.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I haven't read the new Tau codex, and I don't want to buy it or bother with asking someone who has.

So banning it seems like the most rational decision.

If it wasnt core to the game, you'd have a point. But anyone who doesnt want to do that much is probably not going to tournaments anyways. So there's that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
as a TO, i have a job to do and I worked hard to resurrect the hobby in my area from 6-8 players showing up at tournies to the 28 we have now.

Sounds like our scene too! Weird how popular the anti-Forgeworld metas are, huh? Like the big old sign of No Forgeworld is listed on the event and Tourney ads, yet people still come. Mind-boggling.

It has improved attendance greatly in our area. theres a few people who want to "make a point" by not going BECAUSE we don't do the FW thing. They are not affecting me. They're just costing themselves a good time and costing me nothing. So in the end...

And my tournaments have huge prize support. so they are REALLY missing out on the biggest tournaments they could compete in, missing out on ITC points... Hey it's their call man.

 Jancoran wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:


Scatbikes. Tau overwatch and shooting (remind me again HOW your getting there?) Forgeworld is nothing when compared to these monsters and it can actually help many of us weaker armies in dealing with them.

Wait. Your entire argument comes down to Scatterbikes being in the game? Lol. Come on. And again... AGAIN... I have to tell you that my issue isnt entirely the power issue. Scatter bikes are not magical. They cant dodge my dominion squads and those aren't an army thats well regarded. So if i can nuclear strike the hell outta Eldar using Sisters of Battle, you're going to tell me you need Forge World. Is that what you're trying to tell me?

Welcome to the Imperial Guard. In our codex we have 6 ignores cover weapons. Of these the Flamer and Heavy Flamer will never get close enough to work and even if they did the Scatbikes still get a 3+ armour save. The slightly longer ranged but still too short ranged Hellhound suffers from the same issue, it being only AP4 and the Chemcannon is mounted on a flimsy chassis that is miles slower than the scatbikes anyway and also requires itself to be within template range to work. The Nova Cannon suffers from also being AP4 though at 36" of range it might actually manage to crack a few shots off and the Wyvern that everyone complains about is AP5. And open topped.
So, we could try ignoring their armour save.... Except that then they get their just as good Jink save.

Now, bring FW into the mix and suddenly we have Quad Mortars and their ilk. Powerful ignores cover weaponry which can deal with Scatbikes effectively and is actually able to resist some of the shooting. I mean, its not like there is really anthing really scary there anyway. The Leman Russ Annihilator with its TW Lascannon. Oooohh, nasty. Artillery Platforms which are pretty much what the regular SP artillery should have been. So terrifying. Leman Russ conqueror. Im quaking in my boots. Sabre Defence Platforms. Utter cheese filth I take it? Rapier Laser Destroyer. Ugh! A 36" ranged BS3 Ordnance Lascannon. How dare those filthy Guard players ask for such blatantly OP stuff!
You know, if you are finding the FW stuff scary then the problem might be a little closer to home than you like to think.

As for the Scatbikes, well they where just an example. We also have such niceties as: The Decurion Necrons of unkillableness, the Tank Spank Tau formation, the Bring as many free Transports as you like smurf convoy, the Librarius Conclave, the damned Eldar formations, hell the Eldar BOOK!
When you really look at it most FW stuff is actually slightly underpowered.

your claiming that forge world leads to a decline in gaming attendance?

Well you apparently completely skipped the part where I suggested that you should have tourneys where FW and all the "extra" stuff is allowed, but also keep having your house-ruled tournaments for the people that like them.

That is if your meta has people that like FW (I'm sure there are at least a couple).

I have to agree with Master of Ordinance. Banning Forgeworld stuff is just plain silly, when we need that stuff to be competitive. I understand that it's not in the codex, but it's no different from not knowing all of the rules of your opponent's army. When I go to play against my friend's Sisters of Battle do I know what everything in the book necessarily does? No, but I can just ask real quick before the game real quick, or have him explain what it does when he's going to use it. Not that difficult or time consuming. Forgeworld is little different.

 Jancoran wrote:
"what... Drop pods you can charge from... wait... i thought... huh... What the.... So do i deploy nothing? Do i...". That's an advantage.

Do you mean the Kharybdis Assault Claw? That's the one I use for my CSM at other venues.

 Jancoran wrote:

IS that where it "fundamentally " collapses? hehehe.

It's not. What you just argued here is that the book costs are similar now sometimes You're arguing that CERTAIN models are near as expensive as Forge World models (though if you were any kind of fair minded, you'd concede that most are still NOT at that level).

It's not just that "certain" models are "near" as expensive as FW models, they are *AS* expensive or *moreso*, and this rate of parity is increasing with every release. If you look at just about any "Character" model, they're all just as expensive as their FW equivalents. Sure, there's lots of FW stuff that is still more expensive, I'm not saying it isn't, but that gap shrinks every years, and a lot of those more-expensive kits are just alternative models anyway (e.g. Mk2 Space Marine armor sets and the like).


Even looking at the books, in cases where FW books are more expensive, they usually give you a whole lot more than a codex book as well. Lets take Siege of Vraks for example. It's basically two codex books, as you get full army lists for both DKoK Siege Regiments, & a Renegades and Heretics army list, and for significantly less money than what two Codex books would cost you.

This apparently is an attempt to battle my argument over money? I think? And if it is, then the response is obvious and has already been stated: it is a whole other layer to the game financially to keep up with it in addition to the base layer we already need to accept. So if they want us to accept them, then they need to be in the codex

Why? What in partiuclar makes the "codex" so special. It is not, and is not intended to be, the complete whole representation of a faction, and GW will be the first to tell you this.

Do you ban Dataslates, web-bundle formations, campaign supplements, etc too? They're not in the Codex any more than Imperial Armour is.

... which means... they need to be playtested as much as GW normally does and GW needs to dare to make them a true part of the baseline which is an iffy proposition.

Do...do you have any idea of how GW operates these days? I ask this seriously.

You have this fixation on codex books...GW does squat all for playtesting. FW does significantly more and publicly posts playtest rules and adjusts final rules in light of player feedback for many units. GW does no such thing.

And again, There is no "base" game This is a mental construct of your own making. It just doesn't exist.

They would then need to be produced for the same prices, and the codex cost has to be whatever that means it is.

What are "codex" prices? How are we defining that? E-book prices? Softcover prices? Hardcover prices? Collectors editions?

Codex books range from $33-180 depending on faction and style, most are $50-60. FW booksrange from $45-90. There's a pretty large range of overlap there, and, as noted above, the more expensive books give you stuff for two or three armies. The idea that the cost differential there is overly burdensome relative to normal GW pricing is absurd.

You'd have had a case in say, 4E, when Codex Books were all $20, and FW books were $40-80, but now? When their ranges overlap as much as they do and with books like the DA, Eldar, and SM codexes being nearly $60, that just doesn't fly.

The reason GW wont is that they like money. So do you so its not like they are evil for it. But its a fact. Forge World gives them a cost leverage.

You act like FW being more expensive is just a money-grab. That's hard to swallow, particularly when their books offer more content with larger page counts and better quality covers for often the same price or give you two army lists for less than the price of two codex books.

I do not intend to inflict another level of cost and time expenditure on my players. Not going to happen.

So, new codex releases, dataslates, web-bundle formations, campaign books, etc are all out too?

And, lets be real, it's not like half the people aren't pirating their books anyway, FW or no...

I'm also not going to sour their tournament experiences with "GOtcha!" moments from obscure units when they have their HANDS FULL just learning how their normal opponents rules work!

So...why can't they just do what they do in every other instance when they face a new codex or army they have never faced before, or a new dataslate or the like, and ask to see the rules ahead of time?

Seriously...I'm not getting what's so hard about that. There's nothing special about FW in that regard.

You should take a longer term view of the hobby. It would help. The short term Me, me, me, me me, I wanna play with my toys attitude is fine when you're in casual games with friends who want to endure it.

yes...my shortsighted view of the hobby when I want to play an army I've built over many years and multiple editions.

'kay...

Tournaments though are what drive sales and keep the hobby going, and bring oldies back as well as expose the hobby to the newbs who seea tournament and their mind is blown. And as Fantasy saw, once you stop getting people willing to go to those, the sales dry up big time. Putting out more stuff works for a bit too. They floated Fantasy for a while on that. But the diminishing interest in the tournament experience was what put the nail in the coffin.

40K isnt immune to the same thing. It can fail. when people don't go to tournies, or stop caring about the arms race, you'd quickly find that out. Change causes sales, but only if the people who like your game find a motivation for changing and tournaments are the biggest reasons to care. they stopped caring in Fantasy. Dead as a door nail.

And the fact that just about every major big-name 40k tournament allows FW, and that FW hardly dominates winners tables or causes people to drop out, would seem to prove that pretty much all of your points are baseless.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
"what... Drop pods you can charge from... wait... i thought... huh... What the.... So do i deploy nothing? Do i...". That's an advantage.

Do you mean the Kharybdis Assault Claw? That's the one I use for my CSM at other venues.

He's referring to a unit ability two editions out of date.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
as a TO, i have a job to do and I worked hard to resurrect the hobby in my area from 6-8 players showing up at tournies to the 28 we have now.

Sounds like our scene too! Weird how popular the anti-Forgeworld metas are, huh? Like the big old sign of No Forgeworld is listed on the event and Tourney ads, yet people still come. Mind-boggling.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Fw books Accessible to only a few people: lie

Fw is too expensive for most people: lie

Fw is overpowered: lie

It's all a pack of lies, fw books are no more expensive than standard codexs these days, both my hh legion books are 30 quid, same price as my dark angel codex, the cost of forge world is entirely subjective in regards to the models, so them being cheap or expensive is irrelevant, and as such calling them too expensive to the majority is just a lie, as to the fw power level, name one fw unit that is broken these days.

Titans?
Any of the infantry?
Flyers?
Tank?
Walkers?

Please name one.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
as a TO, i have a job to do and I worked hard to resurrect the hobby in my area from 6-8 players showing up at tournies to the 28 we have now.

Sounds like our scene too! Weird how popular the anti-Forgeworld metas are, huh? Like the big old sign of No Forgeworld is listed on the event and Tourney ads, yet people still come. Mind-boggling.

Correlation does not equal causation.

It does when they've stated their reasons for attending and voted on the subject in question. Catch up on the other 9 pages.

And likewise, claiming your meta will suck and no one will ever want to attend your events (as has already been stated) has no foundation in reality.

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
What's the real point of banning FW when scatterbikes exist?

Because reading rules before a game is too confusing for new players.

I hope someone gets that reference.

By the time i'm "reading your rules" Ive had no time to adjust my list for the possibility of facing it, nor given any thought to what strategy I might need to adopt or change. Minimize that all you like.

So we should ban all codices that any of the attendees haven't read? Or should people buy all the codices? But that wouldn't be saving people money.

But let me turn the tables: since you're so convinced that it "doesnt matter" then why bring it? If you can play just as well without it then why are you DEMANDING it be allowed? If what you SAY is true then you can certainly afford NOT to bring it. Its a tournament so you clearly brought your army to win. CLEARLY you thought this combination gave you the best chance... Yet you want me to accept that it makes no difference? Lol. Is that the least honest thing you've ever heard of or what?

I'm demanding that it be allowed because it's unfair discrimination based on faulty logic. I bring it because I like the way the unit works and it's my army. And yeah I could make a broken, OP Space Marine army without FW. Quite easily actually. Double Demi-SM company with min Tacs in Razorbacks with a Cent-star including a librarius conclave. Free tanks, invisibility and grav spam. Not a smell of Resin anywhere. In fact, I would be gimping myself by including FW as Gladius doesn't have allowances for IA units.

I know a couple guys who go to tournaments because they just like getting three games in in a day. they know they are going to be donors and they play whatever they own. Other than those rare birds who dont mind being donors, everyone else who brought that stuff did it to win. TO WIN.

So?

So suggesting that I can just read up on it on the spot is just tripe. It really is. Even if I (by which I mean your opponent) do, and even if I understand it, it clearly advantages you and disadvantages him as he did not know to prepare for it.

"what... Drop pods you can charge from... wait... i thought... huh... What the.... So do i deploy nothing? Do i...". That's an advantage.

"So, that formation allows you too take free transports? I thought you had to pay.. huh... how do I... what about". If your argument is that people may have a hard time adjusting to new rules then you really don't have a leg to stand on. wwww

And then theres the FAQ's. There is a huge amount of information and FAQ's that you now need to worry about because if you dont, there are PLENTY of dicks who will take advantage of you not knowing them. Those that deal with the Forge World specifically, that is.

Because no one who plays with Codices will try to pull one over on the opponent. Everyone who plays with Codices will play fair. No one has easy access to the internet. FAQs are bad because people may not remember them so FAQs should be banned everywhere.

So there are numerous good reasons to simply not inflict that on the opponent. I showed up at a tournament last Saturday and faced... an almost entire army of Forge World Tyranids. I had NO idea what they could do. We had to spend a good fifteen minutes going through all the units and part of that was "okay now wait that was this unit, so what was this one again?" Its a TIMED event! And we just shot fifteen minutes out the door so that I could readjust my thinking on ALL of it.

I did win. handily. but that wasnt the point. the entire game was a miasma of confusion because he explained AFTER the fact that this "entry that i read" included some obscure reference to a rule he forget to mention which was that their Hammer of Wrath was AP 2!!! D3 hammer of Wrath at AP 2. He obliterated half a unit with it before we even swung, and I could have avoided that had i realized it just by multicharging on my turn. I didn't. So i didnt.
I won the game so I should now be okay with that kind of EXPERIENCE as a player? No. the game sucked. It was not fun. My opponent was fine but the experience sucked. I took almost everything off the board but it wasn't a fun game. I left grumbling, and my opponent was one of the nicest guys ever.

I'd hate to see what happens with you when a new Codex drops. I bet Decurion must've made you rage even if you tabled them because it was different. And different is bad.

Sorry if you cannot understand the hate towards Forge World but like i say: as a TO, i have a job to do and I worked hard to resurrect the hobby in my area from 6-8 players showing up at tournies to the 28 we have now. That took serious work and lobbying and I am not going to blow it all up and END enthusiasm for tournaments by allowing everything.

That's great that you managed to resurrect your meta. Your ideas are still strange and self contradictory. And allowing FW is not the same as allowing everything.

Not even ITC is blind to the need for balance. They ban and limit all kinds of stuff. they dont draw the line where I do, but they draw a line. So this isnt foreign thinking.

Yeah because the ITC doesn't have a personal vendetta against the British resin makers. You hate FW for doing the same things that GW does. You hate it for being confusing and expensive but so are the GW codices. You hate it for it's balance issues but GW Codices are far and away worse than anything in a IA book.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
as a TO, i have a job to do and I worked hard to resurrect the hobby in my area from 6-8 players showing up at tournies to the 28 we have now.

Sounds like our scene too! Weird how popular the anti-Forgeworld metas are, huh? Like the big old sign of No Forgeworld is listed on the event and Tourney ads, yet people still come. Mind-boggling.

Correlation does not equal causation.

It does when they've stated their reasons for attending and voted on the subject in question. Catch up on the other 9 pages.

And likewise, claiming your meta will suck and no one will ever want to attend your events (as has already been stated) has no foundation in reality.

Did all of them say that reason they started playing again was because FW was banned? Did the majority? Did the majority of the people who came to vote on the matter vote on the ban?

But if all of that is true that doesn't mean that banning FW is a good thing. It just means that the people who play where in your meta are misinformed.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did all of them say that reason they started playing again was because FW was banned? Did the majority? Did the majority of the people who came to vote on the matter vote on the ban?

Yes.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
But if all of that is true that doesn't mean that banning FW is a good thing. It just means that the people who play where in your meta are misinformed.

Assuming the meta is misinformed because otherwise it invalidates your opinionated platform. Gotcha. God forbid anyone makes an informed decision to ban Forgeworld. That's like... unheard of.