Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In the retaliation cadre, you only get 1 unit of broadsides. So "moar broadsides!" while fun, isn't exactly applicable

That's true, assuming the RC is your only way to access Broadsides.

Honestly, I don't max out broadsides as I usually prefer crisis suits with two weapons. I would have been more inclined to take more than one broadside if I could take more than 1 unit of them in the Retaliation Cadre. At first I treated having to take 1 of them as a tax to the formation but after playing many games with the RC, a Broadside is cheap and useful, if taking only 1 and barebone.

Your take on Broadsides is surprising to me. They've always been strong performers in every list I use them, despite their immobility. The facts that they're basically independent of marker lights and dump out a ridiculous amount of shots for their cost have always served me very well. From a raw damage output per point perspective, they're among the best units in the game. I've considered a max unit of RC Broadsides nearly a no-brainer since the codex was released (if you're using that formation, of course). It's interesting to hear a different view on that issue.

Broadsides aren't bad but I have to say that I play Elder 60% of the time so, if taken out of the RC, they never really get to do much in a game. Also their shooting has never really excited (save for the old Str 10) me and I have considered crisis suits superior due to the flexibility in arming them and their JSJ.

In the current iteneration of my RC lists, I have packed in my main source of markerlights through a Commander with marker drones (and the networked markelight FW upgrade if I can get away with it) attached to a crisis suit with marker drones. I'll take a Skyray on the table so I have some initial and durable marker lights. When Kauyon first came out I did use 2 broadsides and did OK but when I got an Yvhara, I had to adjust my list somewhat. I'm currently putting my main source of markerlights as marker drones in the RC and basically took out a broadside. So far so good. I get miles upon miles of mileage out of the 3 single crisis suits with dual plasma (or switchout for whatever you need) and the Riptide with Ion all, at BS 4. I think the crisis suits pull ahead in usefulness on that initial BS4 shooting because you can basically drop them anywhere with a reduced chance of mishaps and they have the best chances to attack units trying to hide. Then they can do their jump move back into cover. That for me, is one of the biggest perks of the RC. If I took 2 broadsides they still have to stay in coherency which may limit my choices of targets. Also deepstriking mishaps may be an issue due to their base size and having more than 1 of them. I know one is useful for sure, 2 would be OK, but taking a full squad of 3...I think those points could be better spent elsewhere.

I am a huge fan of the RC. I think its the perfect counter to Eldar. I run a buffmander in a squad of 5 crisis suits (3 dual plasma, 2 dual fb) bare riptide, i go back and forth on running just 1 broadside or 3 w target lock. The other 2 crisis units typically comprise 1 of 2 w dual CIB's and 1 w dual fb. I almost always use low altitude deployment.

The rest of the army is usually a riptide wing and the ranged support cadre. Ive been wanting to toy with the recon drones maybe 1 or 2 pathfinder squads with one. Havent been able to get any games in with them yet though. Has anyone else used the recone drones in combination w the RC?? If so, thoughts?

I've been enjoying a Retaliation Cadre supporting an OSC and a Marker Drone Net. The Ghostkeel and their Steaths suits are tough to table turn 1, while beacons on the Stealths lets me dictate where my Ret Cadre arrives. The Drone Net just means better Marklights for less investment.

My narrative is that the Drones are on sentry duty, the OSC is in ambush, while the Ret Cadre deploys to close the trap. 1500pts, all minimal units except for Broadsides.

SJ

Optimized Stealth Cadre is just so fun to play with. Can't say it enough times. It is markerlight independent which is super and it has versatility. My number one all time favorite model, the Tau empire Stealthsuit gets played and that makes me sooooo happy inside.

With the GW FAQ now re-allowing jinking transports to poop out troops that fire normally, I'm looking to optimize my Breacher lists a little. Generally speaking, the options I've used include a CAD-based list with Ghostkeel Wing support for the Dfish (which is monstrously annoying for opponents, I find) and an all-out assault list with 2 Y'Vahras and a Counterstrike Cadre to get the Breachers up the field ASAP. An alternative I've theoryhammered is a DBC list using the Counterstrike Cadre (Breachers rerolling hits and wounds - ouch), but squeezing both an Ethereal and a Stormsurge into that one has proven difficult.

The former is very durable but pretty slow. Unless your opponent is really determined to blast directly towards you, your Breachers will be inert for at least the first turn. The strategy is heavy on positioning and gradually controlling the board with your multiple large tanks and then dropping off your brutal payload to wipe whatever causes you trouble. I've historically run small units of 5-6 Breachers since 15 S6 AP3 shots (assuming you're near your Ethereal) is enough to put a serious hurt on most units, even without marker support. They are kind of one-and-done roughly half the time, even with good Dfish positioning, but having those 2+ jink tanks running around blocking and shocking opposing units is great.

The Counterstrike/Y'Vahra list was entertaining as well but was definitely more oriented towards an alpha strike. The Dfish survived despite not having dpods, but the Breachers were marginally effective. I took them in larger units, but I was operating under the previous jink=snap fire rules. I'll try the list again now that things have been re-reversed. Y'Vahras are always brutal, so it was not surprising that they performed well. The list controls the opposing deployment zone quite well from the very beginning, but that may not matter so much against Battle Companies and scatbike-heavy Eldar lists.

The DBC list is a challenge because there's just too much stuff I want to put in that doesn't fit easily. An ethereal is basically a must-have, in my opinion, but without a CAD, that isn't happening. Similarly, the Stormsurge has to either come from a Hunter Cadre or a CAD. I'd really prefer to have the Surge benefit from wound/armor rerolls as desired, so the HC is preferred there. However, the CAD is basically tax-free and comes with an Ethereal. It's also kind of a challenge to fit in a Stormsurge, a Counterstrike Cadre, and significant ranged and marker support. Decisions, decisions. I may have to end up scrapping this idea, but I'm going to keep toying with it for a bit.

Example lists to chew on:

FSE CAD
Ethereal - 50
4x6 Breachers - 204
4 Devilfish - dpods - 380
2 Crisis Suits - 2 flamers, bonding knife - 66
Stormsurge - AFP, pulse driver, EWO, shield gen - 435

Ghostkeel Wing
3 Ghostkeels - 2 VT, 3 EWO, 1 CDS, fusions, CIR - 478

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224
1837
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FSE CAD
Ethereal - 50
2 Crisis Suits - 2 flamers - 66
2 Y'Vahra - stims - 530
Stormsurge - AFP, pulse driver, EWO, shield gen - 435

Counterstrike Cadre
4 Pathfinders - 44
3x6 Breachers - 162
4 Devilfish - 1 dpod - 335

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224
1846
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DBC
Hunter Cadre
Commander - 2 missile pods, DC, TL, 2 Marker Drones - 152
3x5 Strike teams - 135
Riptide - IA, SMS, EWO - 190
7 Marker Drones - 98
Stormsurge - AFP, pulse driver, EWO, shield gen - 435
2xBroadside - EWO - 140

Counterstrike Cadre
4 Pathfinders - 44
2x8, 1x7 Breachers - 207
4 Devilfish - 1 dpod - 335
1639

FSE CAD
Ethereal - 50
2xCrisis Suit - total 3 flamers, BKR - 61
1847

While I am a huge fan of the first list, and think it will perform well, I think the second list hits harder.
In list 1 the Ghostkeel Wing will provide valuable 2+ cover-saves for the Fish, and provide mid-board support while operating at a similar distance. Trying to balance the screens and counterattacks in that list seems like it would be a challenge to pull off, but very fun (and devastating) if successful. All the while being supported from range by the Stormsurge, this should work nicely. As the Ethereal will (I'm assuming) be front and center with the Breachers, I might tweak the VT's and CFD off the Ghostkeels to trim points and buy 3 more Drones to spread into the Drone Net. With their abysmal leadership, it can be helpful to have a wound to lose before forcing that check. Overall this list looks like a gas to play and to play against.
List 2 had the Y'vahras. What more needs to be said? That alone makes it hit like a brick. The only thing standing up to them with the Surge would be a Deathstar that went first, or maybe MSU Scatpacks. Maybe a Fortuned Wraithknight with the D-Blade? The Y'vahras will certainly make sure no one will be paying attention to the Breachers, but the only question will be what will be left for them to kill when they get there?

I have a decent amount of experience with the first list against War Convocation and Renegades with demon princes, and the 2+ cover save is always rage-inducing. I haven't played other armies with it, but you're right in that maneuvering is a challenge. Small mistakes can seriously bite you. However, if you play tight, those Devilfish are a colossal PITA.

I've only run list 2 once vs my friend's weird DE/Covens/Harlequins freakshow mashup list, and while I cleaned house, I don't really know what to make of that success. He's a good player and tends to run rock-hard lists, but ultimately, it's still a DE vs Tau match.

I'm definitely interested in expanding my horizons, for I think it'll stand up well against most of the popular top-tier lists. Anything marine melts to Y'Vahras, so even powered-up deathstars would likely be unhappy, except maybe a barkstar with its massive amount of bodies. It matches well against Eldar, though multiple Wraithknights could be an issue. GSC would be a really interesting match. I don't have the intercepting capabilities that most Tau lists do, but there's quite a lot of daunting flamers for them to get through. Whatever the case, it's a fun list to run!

I like the first list, really cool and against armies who lack ignore cover, it will be a proper pain! Like a mech version of Ravenwing, but more fire power.

If you could find the pts, a luxury buy, would be Aun'do instead of a regular ethereal. He is an extra 25pts, but comes with a bunch of wargear (homing, hover drone, recon armour), fearless and the warlord trait that allows Tau units to ignore the penalties of going to ground once per game. In your list, that warlord trait would be fairly clutch to keep the breachers healthy.

You don't need it ofc and conquer of cities on strategic table is worth rolling for with a regular ethereal.

Edit: Maybe consider instead of drone net and velocity trackers on some Ghostkeels, skyrays as marker support? They fit the mech theme, less markers for your buck of course, but are hard targets in themselves, where's drones are currently an obvious target to aim at for anti infantry weapons.

I'm still loving my riptide wing and double storm surge list, supported by a drone net. Hardly the most original list to ever surface, but it's got so much firepower that I can't play it too often in my meta because it does so well. Plus the commander with the drone controller upgrade really helps the drones stay alive, and hitting on 2's is amazing with marker lights.

I have a list I like to refer to as my "Escort Mission". It's 2 CADs and a Drone-Net. Each CAD has 2 Mark-O Commanders and 3 Monat Flamer Crisis Suits, with one of the CADs having a squad of 2 Stormsurges. It gives me a fast, mobile army that can light stuff up and delete units every turn. Of course it has it's flaws, but so does every other escort mission. /wink

SJ

not to be cheeky, but are we legally able to buy a Counterfire Defense System for our Stormsurges, to give them Overwatch (at BS2)?

I wish. I'd have to look at the specific wording of the rules, but I believe that since gargantuan creatures can't fire overwatch at all, they never get to the step where ballistic skill figures in.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I wish. I'd have to look at the specific wording of the rules, but I believe that since gargantuan creatures can't fire overwatch at all, they never get to the step where ballistic skill figures in.

You mean like how superheavy walkers cannot fire overwatch (Rulebook P. 96, Movement and Shooting) unless you take a Baronial Court (IK Codex P. 108, Knightly Vassals)?

The issue is easily fixed by making it illegal to buy for a stormsurge, like Vectored Retro Thrusters or Stimulant Injectors. . .

 carldooley wrote:
not to be cheeky, but are we legally able to buy a Counterfire Defense System for our Stormsurges, to give them Overwatch (at BS2)?

They have no overwatch so it wouldnt matter.

Unless it confers the ability to overwatch.

SJ

It does not. The wording for the CDS is

A model with the Counterfire Defence System fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

So the wording does not grant the ability to fire Overwatch to a model which otherwise could not as that would need to be specifically stated, such as in the entry for the Point Defence Targeting Relay in the Vehicles Upgrade section.

So got a couple of questions
1 is it worth going farsight enclaves compared to Tue standard codex?
2) as per the supplement I can make Amy detachment a FE enclaves one am I correct in thinking this includes the hunter contingent

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So got a couple of questions
1 is it worth going farsight enclaves compared to Tue standard codex?
2) as per the supplement I can make Amy detachment a FE enclaves one am I correct in thinking this includes the hunter contingent

1: It depends. If you want to run Crisis suits as troops or you want to use the FE signature systems (in addition to the regular Tau ones), definitely go FE. If you want to run a lot of Fire Warriors and don't care about ObSec Crisis suits, stick with regular Tau. If you go FE, you have to pay a tax in the form of Bonding Knife Ritual on every unit that can take it (not that it's that expensive). Ultimately, you need to consider what kind of list you want to run before you decide if it's worth it to go with FE.

2: I think you can run a HC in a FE detachment, but I'm not sure why you would want to. With all the units you have to take, that BKR tax starts to add up. You don't get any benefits of a FE detachment with a HC (no ObSec on your Crisis suits) other than access to FE sig systems and warlord traits. Not really worth it IMO.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So got a couple of questions
1 is it worth going farsight enclaves compared to Tue standard codex?
2) as per the supplement I can make Amy detachment a FE enclaves one am I correct in thinking this includes the hunter contingent

1: It depends. If you want to run Crisis suits as troops or you want to use the FE signature systems (in addition to the regular Tau ones), definitely go FE. If you want to run a lot of Fire Warriors and don't care about ObSec Crisis suits, stick with regular Tau. If you go FE, you have to pay a tax in the form of Bonding Knife Ritual on every unit that can take it (not that it's that expensive). Ultimately, you need to consider what kind of list you want to run before you decide if it's worth it to go with FE.

2: I think you can run a HC in a FE detachment, but I'm not sure why you would want to. With all the units you have to take, that BKR tax starts to add up. You don't get any benefits of a FE detachment with a HC (no ObSec on your Crisis suits) other than access to FE sig systems and warlord traits. Not really worth it IMO.

Thanks
In the case of point 1 I do pike quite a few of the relics which I feel could work rather nicely alongside my Mech Tau with suit support list. Plus earth caste pilot is a god send.
2) mainly due to the fact I don't own any of the farsight auxiliaries yet.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It does not. The wording for the CDS is

A model with the Counterfire Defence System fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

So the wording does not grant the ability to fire Overwatch to a model which otherwise could not as that would need to be specifically stated, such as in the entry for the Point Defence Targeting Relay in the Vehicles Upgrade section.

I bet that if you ask GW, they would "clarify" that of course a Stormsurge would overwatch at BS2 if you bought the CDS for it. Because they don't understand their own rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It does not. The wording for the CDS is

A model with the Counterfire Defence System fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

So the wording does not grant the ability to fire Overwatch to a model which otherwise could not as that would need to be specifically stated, such as in the entry for the Point Defence Targeting Relay in the Vehicles Upgrade section.

I bet that if you ask GW, they would "clarify" that of course a Stormsurge would overwatch at BS2 if you bought the CDS for it. Because they don't understand their own rules.

SJ

Exalted!
Champion of Slaanesh, did the FAQ fix ECPA? As written, riptides cannot take them.

 carldooley wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
It does not. The wording for the CDS is

A model with the Counterfire Defence System fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

So the wording does not grant the ability to fire Overwatch to a model which otherwise could not as that would need to be specifically stated, such as in the entry for the Point Defence Targeting Relay in the Vehicles Upgrade section.

I bet that if you ask GW, they would "clarify" that of course a Stormsurge would overwatch at BS2 if you bought the CDS for it. Because they don't understand their own rules.

SJ

Exalted!
Champion of Slaanesh, did the FAQ fix ECPA? As written, riptides cannot take them.

The Tau FAQ fixed it, I think, and specifically said that Riptides may take the ECPA if taken in a FSE detachment.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
did the FAQ fix ECPA? As written, riptides cannot take them.

The Tau FAQ fixed it, I think, and specifically said that Riptides may take the ECPA if taken in a FSE detachment.

link?

Mis-post

 carldooley wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
did the FAQ fix ECPA? As written, riptides cannot take them.

The Tau FAQ fixed it, I think, and specifically said that Riptides may take the ECPA if taken in a FSE detachment.

link?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/07/breaking-new-40k-tau-faq.html

very last picture in the post. "Xv104's Riptides can take the ECPA from FSE"

thanks, pumaman1.
Though through reading the FAQ, Anchored Stormsurges don't get a chance to Death or Glory; they just die to tank shock?

Death or glory is inherent to the Tank shock rule, so it still gets the chance to make its 1 attack to destroy the vehicle or die (since its smash might do it). SO you would get to try, but not the best odds in the world

So, i'm assembling birthday gifts today (and anticipating more Tau toys tomorrow/Sunday from the wife for Christmas), and was wondering if people could speak to how useful a second Stormsurge is in one's personal collection?

We tend to be fairly competitive gamers, and are also within an easy drive of quite a few ITC tournaments of various sizes, throughout the year. That should speak to the "tone" of our player-base.

People aren't afraid to "go hard" so long as it is pre-announced/agreed on.

As such, I was wondering if going 2x Stormsurge ends up creating a threat worth its points, and inclined to earn back its points, of if the second is just tremendous over-kill, possibly costing one the points to take other top-tier talent such as an Y'vahra, Riptide Wing, etc...?

At 1850pts, investing in the 2x Surge unit is incredibly costly, and i'd like to decide how interesting/competitive it might be before plunking down the cash for a second one.

Edit: One quick secondary question as I am building with an eye towards future wysiwyg. Is it EVER worth building Riptides with the TL-Fusion instead of TL-SMS? Just thinking it might help against inevitable super-heavies?