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Jancoran 668091 9128687 66baa75f91db93a336dae762c1d40003. wrote:

Yup. I'm not blind. I know its there. But... No need. I'm good enough without it and theres no better way to prove it than...well...proving it.

No doubt. You really should have some sort of blog to fill us in on how you've become so awesome!

Hey... I won't always agree with his theory-crafting, but that blog did get me to buy some models i've had fun with (not necessarily did WELL with, but have enjoyed testing) like Aun-va, etc...

MilkmanAl wrote:

Jancoran 668091 9128687 66baa75f91db93a336dae762c1d40003. wrote:

Yup. I'm not blind. I know its there. But... No need. I'm good enough without it and theres no better way to prove it than...well...proving it.

No doubt. You really should have some sort of blog to fill us in on how you've become so awesome!

I have a blog. It's in my signature below.


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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Hey... I won't always agree with his theory-crafting, but that blog did get me to buy some models i've had fun with (not necessarily did WELL with, but have enjoyed testing) like Aun-va, etc...

I am glad to hear it created some thought. As for theory, Aun'Va and most of the suggestions I make on the blog itself are pretty well tested and of course, i play them in ITC tournaments as well. Of the tournaments i did well in, I won two tournaments this year using Aun'Va (which were the two tournaments I played him in). 2 for 2? Not bad. More telling is opponents reaction when i am constantly allowed to re-roll my leadership saves. I can imagine how annoying that must have been when they end up getting out of combat on the wrong phase, repeatedly.

Ruts are pretty easy to get into. Look at the weight of your average gamer and tell me I'm wrong. I just make an intentional effort not to get in them to the extent I am sensibly able.

I honestly haven't ever had any problems with leadership for Aun'va to fix. I typically run MSU armies, so units that get shot up tend to get wiped - no chance to run. I also don't like that he's unable to hide in units which really sucks, given how fragile he is. I've considered being tricky and using a tank Commander in Aun'va's unit (or even an Ethereal Council with Aun'va) to spew out powers, because a tank Commander with the paradox of duality is going to be REALLY hard to kill. Of course, you can just flank the unit or something to get around the tank, but you have to admit that the idea of a unit that has at least a 2+/5+++ is pretty nifty. Of course, you're spending ~400pts on a slow unit with very little offensive output that doesn't really force multiply that impressively (and can thus be more or less ignored as convenient.)

So it occurs to me that I haven't seen a good drone spam list in a long time. I'm assuming the ITC is sticking with their ruling that you can't enter and leave play on the same turn, despite the FAQ indicating otherwise, so that would clearly hurt the formation's popularity. There's also the part about needing a bajillion drones to actually make it work. In any event, I was thinking this might be nasty:

FSE CAD
Ethereal - 50
2x Crisis Suit - flamer, BKR - 56
2 Stormsurges - pulse driver, AFP, ATS, shield generator, EWO - 876

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224

Firestream Wing
1 Piranha - 40
3x5 Piranhas - 600

1846 in total. Dropping a couple Piranhas for more Marker Drones would probably be wise. You might also consider switching the CAD around to a Hunter Cadre and running the whole thing as a DBC for drone wound rerolling lawlz, but that'd likely require dropping a Stormsurge and the Ethereal. In fact, it might end up looking something like this:

DBC
Hunter Cadre
Commander - 2 missile pods, DC, TL iridium - 153
3x10 sniper Kroot - 210
Riptide - fusion, IA, EWO - 190
Stormsurge - pulse driver, AFP, ATS, shield generator, EWO - 438

Drone Net
4x4 Marker Drones - 224

Firestream Wing
1 Piranha - 40
3x5 Piranhas - 600

I've had morale problems (well my Tau army, to be more specific..). For example, in the OSC, the three Ghostkeels in a unit, are LD9. Which isn't great for a unit that costs so much. Some armies can target your leadership value, mainly psychic powers.

Quick rules question regarding the Stormsurge. As a Super-Heavy am I allowed to fire the D-missiles at different targets, or are they considered "the same weapon" and thus have to all go into one target?

I believe each missile is considered an individual weapon, so go wild!

 Bryan01 wrote:
I've had morale problems (well my Tau army, to be more specific..). For example, in the OSC, the three Ghostkeels in a unit, are LD9. Which isn't great for a unit that costs so much. Some armies can target your leadership value, mainly psychic powers.

Correct. Its an issue. Aun'Va solves this issue. There is a certain level of MSU you can aspire to obviously that makes LD less important. i think thats true. I dont think it solves it entirely and PERHAPS most importantly is when you wantot run or want to stand. Being able to try both is big, over the course of 5-6 turns and who knows how many combats. Catching enemies outin the open in the wrong phase is definitely an important goal for me.


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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Quick rules question regarding the Stormsurge. As a Super-Heavy am I allowed to fire the D-missiles at different targets, or are they considered "the same weapon" and thus have to all go into one target?

You can fire them at four different targets

MilkmanAl wrote:
I believe each missile is considered an individual weapon, so go wild!

Excellent. Thanks. I ran my above-mentioned Cron/Tau list vs. a Gladius, and after my Y'vahra actually made surprisingly easy work of the Imperial Knight, I wasn't sure if I could start throwing the missiles around at different Razorbacks to start popping.

It would be hard to fire them all as D shots at four separate targets, but a S8 AP1 shot is still good for popping light vehicles. I use them that way if there isn't anything that really needs Strength D (like Gladius).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
It would be hard to fire them all as D shots at four separate targets, but a S8 AP1 shot is still good for popping light vehicles. I use them that way if there isn't anything that really needs Strength D (like Gladius).

Essentially that was my thought. Once the Knight was down, I didn't know if I would need to suffer a really inefficient round of shooting or not. But yeah, against Pods, etc... i'll happily settle for Str 8.

So for Christmas this year I rewarded myself with a KX139 Supremacy Armor, XV106 R'Varna and a XV109 Y'Vahra. I've heard some good stories about the 109 but was interested to hear what people thought/knew about the other two.

The supremacy armor is one of the most (overly) powerful units in the game. I mean, 600pts for realistically indestructible 7" strength D blast is borderline ludicrous. R'varna packs a serious punch on a really durable platform, but it doesn't offer a whole lot that Tau don't already have in spades. Just about everything you can field has high-strength, medium AP options. It's a good option, but I feel like the Y'vahra and standard IA riptide are more worthwhile.

Not every format allows the Taunar to be used, The R'varna will gain a niche use in the current meta which has shifted towards the heavy use of "artillery" type units with renegades of vrak spam etc.

Got my list for the TSHFT Major locked down. leaving at 2PM to get the hotel situated. Made a major chance to the list (and a risky one) to counter a major weakness. We will now see if that sacrifice pays off...

You can follow the Tournament on http://www.bestcoastpairings.com. Its the Seattle Heart of Fire Tournament Major (TSHFT)

 Sheit27 wrote:
Not every format allows the Taunar to be used, The R'varna will gain a niche use in the current meta which has shifted towards the heavy use of "artillery" type units with renegades of vrak spam etc.

Yep, besides my club there's a local tournament every month at a store that allows the Supremacy Armor. Not sure if Nova does/will this year.

@Jancoran good luck at TSHFT!

Bryan01 wrote:I've had morale problems (well my Tau army, to be more specific..). For example, in the OSC, the three Ghostkeels in a unit, are LD9. Which isn't great for a unit that costs so much. Some armies can target your leadership value, mainly psychic powers.

Give them BKR for at least coming back sooner. About psychic powers, best having a Talisman around...

necron99 wrote:So for Christmas this year I rewarded myself with a KX139 Supremacy Armor, XV106 R'Varna and a XV109 Y'Vahra. I've heard some good stories about the 109 but was interested to hear what people thought/knew about the other two.

Necer tried the 139, but I have a 106 and already tested the 109.

R'varna is pretty nice against 4+ or worse saves, as AV12 or worse. It works wonders vs Daemons (especially if they like their cavalry units and unarmored MCs), but I didn't have the same performance against Marines. Also, it's 35p cheaper than a Wraithknight and is way less resistant than the big Eldar guy.
For its price, I rather have another normal Riptide and a bunch of Crisis


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 Bryan01 wrote:
Just to confirm, Shadowsun can't join a non infiltrating unit in the deployment phase, even if she is deploying normally? That is the way I've played it to be safe.

I do this. I'd join her in deployment phase/reserves only with Kroot or Stealth Suits.

FSE with crisis troops is good, but lately, I have been taking essentially TE Codex vanilla builds. For the same reason why Shadowsun got 'nerfed'. . . infiltrators deploy last. Having my bubble wrapping Kroot able to bubble wrap anything my opponent deploys to counter is a wonderful ability - just because they can infiltrate doesn't mean that the optimal use is to deploy them forward. . .

despite what others may say on this thread, there will seldom be a reason to take more than 2 stormsurges at a time. They eat points amazingly fast, giving each Interceptor, Shields, and Skyfire eats a lot of points, and using 2 in a squad makes for some teeth gnashing when your opponent tries to take them out.

And the start collecting boxes? You are making all your drones marker drones?

Yeah I give Ghostkeels the trusty bonding knife, only unit where it doesn't feel like a tax! Still, by no means a perfect solution. I don't think Tau have enough warp charges to make much use of the talisman.

Kroot bubble wrap makes sense with the increase in first turn assaults.

 carldooley wrote:
FSE with crisis troops is good, but lately, I have been taking essentially TE Codex vanilla builds. For the same reason why Shadowsun got 'nerfed'. . . infiltrators deploy last. Having my bubble wrapping Kroot able to bubble wrap anything my opponent deploys to counter is a wonderful ability - just because they can infiltrate doesn't mean that the optimal use is to deploy them forward. . .

despite what others may say on this thread, there will seldom be a reason to take more than 2 stormsurges at a time. They eat points amazingly fast, giving each Interceptor, Shields, and Skyfire eats a lot of points, and using 2 in a squad makes for some teeth gnashing when your opponent tries to take them out.

And the start collecting boxes? You are making all your drones marker drones?

Skyfire? Isn't that wasteful on Stormsurge as its best weapon isn't even receiving the benefit? I feel like a Tau player in a meta that even worries about anti-air, just takes OSC and deletes flyers at will.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Skyfire? Isn't that wasteful on Stormsurge as its best weapon isn't even receiving the benefit? I feel like a Tau player in a meta that even worries about anti-air, just takes OSC and deletes flyers at will.

The problem with that is most of the good FMCs are rocking a 2++ after the first Psychic Phase, or are spammed with 3+ armor. Magnus, Kairos, and Flyrants are common Fliers in my area. 2++ Fliers really hate a Skyfiring Blastcannon, and Flyrants can be dinged up by all the secondary weapons. While the OSC can do fine against Flyrants, it needs multiple VTs, and is terribly inefficient against a 2++ rerolling 1s. The Stormsurge can fish for 6s with StrD, toss other shots at another, then charge and Stomp one who fails their Grounding Test.

Just thought i'd throw an update in here regarding my second test game using the list i'd discussed earlier. This was again against a Gladius, and this one won out as a result of being White Scars. By game's end I had removed 80% of the army, but Ob-Sec everything that was half-way up the table on their first turn proved difficult to out-score.

I don't think I can do too much to make the list more successful and think this might just be a rough match-up. A lucky IK Stomp, rolling a 6' also took out my Pylonstar too early which further diminished my output.

I was thinking of squeezing in a Drone-net, which I can just do, but against the full company, the issue is that there just aren't enough high value targets worth marker-lighting. Having more of them just wouldn't accomplish much for me.

Incidentally, with the Pylons going down EARLY, the Y'vahra, and anchored Stormsurge were responsible for removing 75% of my opponent's list. They really were just terrific.

 necron99 wrote:


@Jancoran good luck at TSHFT!

Just reporting back from the front lines.

First game was against a high ranked cheater playing 2 Pylons, which he then joined with like 5 Necron characters. They aren't artilery Crew but he was giving them all T7 just for being in its unit. The rules on page 64 clearly state that the "Artillery Unit" consists of the CREW and the GUNS. It then says that the Artillery unit (Crew and guns) are the same toughness as the Artillery. He cheated like that in every game. We said two enormously steep tall "mountain" terrain pieces were impassable, and then when he deep struck his Pylon unit into it, it suddenly wasn't. Worst cheat which cost me four points at games end was when he brought on his last Night Scythe and jetted it 36" across the board and deployed his immortals six inches out and then ran them to the Primary objective way over in my deployment zone through a space too small to do it in. Only problem is, that's illegal too. He ended up placing very well overall but...he lost to me despite all of his chicanery. This is not a guy who doesn't know the rules. Cost me a lot of points in the standings which pisses me off. So yeah. Win number one. I feel for his opponents after me because most of this stuff on the Night Scythe and the Artillery kind of occurred to me after the fact and all I knew is that nothing he was doing felt right, but I didn't want to halt an already contentious game to check up on pretty much everything he was doing. I could go on about the argument we had at the very end about the objective (It got moved a few times because the mat was kind of hanging over the table and so I put it back at its postion six inches from the edge and he threw a fit about that, ironically as he's jetting 36" and depositing his immortals on it. Lol. Good gawd).

Second game was against Todd Johannsens White Scars battle Company. He seized. His entire army does essentially one thing: he scouts to the middle and sits there the entire game and rolls dice at you. That is it. Lol. There is no artistry to it. He simply GravCannons you until you can't see straight with Grav amps. It works! I did really well against it mostly due to the Ghostkeels unique ability to dodge damage a little bit at range. My Stormsurge kind of whiffed on his missiles which hurt a little. I made one little error in judgement and backed away instead of moving forward on him with my Ghostkeels on the 4th round (there really was no more reason to hide honestly with my saves and so late in the game) and then in turn five I needed a charge with the Ghostkeels to seal a win. missed it because I just didnt advance enough the previous round. Game over. It was a good game though and he sportingly rolled for the combat just to see what would happen if I made the charge. I would indeed have won. Even with the loss I got points so it wasn't a terrible. Todd is a strong opponent so if you get a chance to play him and you want a challenge, fight him. His standing in the ITC is well deserved. I think I've lost to him like three times now, and two of the three were close affairs. I'll get him eventually. =)

Third game was against Aaron Bang. He is a SUPERLATIVE painter and has won tournaments. He had a GREAT looking Lamenters army, different than the one I faced before. This time he went Triple Storm Raven on me, pretty much a 180 degree turn from his previous Lamenters force. I feel he made an error in the second round when he didn't disembark all his stuff in favor of firing down on me hard. I think he could have had a really strong game had he done it but as it was, I managed to blow a Raven out of the sky and killed almost everyone inside it, and had already killed three units of Null Maidens as they tried to cross to objectives. His Null Maidens were a real interesting inclusion in his force. It was my first chance to see them up close. Aaron is a super nice guy and i love having him at our Elvensword Ambassadorial GT. Only the second time I've gotten to face him in an actual game but I've known him for quite a while.

I looked at the list for my game four opponent and knew I was going to have to out general him and focus on his fast attacks in a Scouring mission. His list had me outclassed and I decided to attempt to draw him towards the low end objectives to kill me (as he inevitably would) and back door the higher point objectives, instead of trying to outgun his big Riptide Wing and Dual Stormsurges. The plan worked. He had Maelstrom points pretty firmly in hand, early, but at end of five I had Primary despite only having one model left, the StormSurge (with two wounds). if the game ended it was to be a very hard fought trip to the tertiaries. The game didn't end, so I conceded. I kind of knew I was going to lose this one because A)Sean Morgan is a good general and has actually WON our Elvensword Ambassadorial GT (ironic that I would meet not one but three of our Ambassadors in battle this weekend out of 62 people) and B) that list is just a really well known list that Frankie at Frontline gaming pretty much put on the map. Sean took 3rd place overall at TSHFT so no shame in losing there. I had hoped to get more points out of the loss, and almost did get Primary as I said. I'd say my largest error which was pretty egregious, was forgetting his Tetras could scout. That cost me. My disdain for Forge World probably didn't help me out there.

Game 5 was against Perry Spillman. He brought three Sicaran Battle tanks to kick things off, in an Iron Hands list with drop pods for days and some Ironclads that would have made me very sad had they reached me. Armor 12 on the rear of those battle tanks is a thing, which would somewhat mitigate my Ghostkeels effectiveness at range so I decided to deep strike the whole unit and infiltrate my Stealthsuits and Assassin to meet up wioth them closer to juicy melta range. Ultimately, I swept right and started the party off. His Drop pods kept dropping on objectives, empty but annoying and AV 12 is pretty good. Nonetheless i eventually did kill the pods i had to kill, and got all the way around the board on him. At games end there was essentially nothing left of his force. I think in his defense, my Stormsurge rolled like a CHAMP on his saves and not even so much his saves as his Feel no Pain rolls. I was quite fortunate in that regard, or it mighjt have been a little more even. As it was that stormsurge was on fire, and it did work. I felt like its survival really made the game for me.

Game 6 was against Oliver Reeves. He was a cool cat and he had a squad he literally wrote down as "The Command Squad of Dickery" because it was all Grav guns, Storm shields, 3+ feel no pain, rerolling this and that and blah blah blah. Unkillable killiness. His army was TINY, with an Imperial Knight, his command squad, two Thunderfires which did work, his scouts and two Storms and another Sicaran Battletank and these had more legacies on them. I think I counted 24 models? But lemme tell ya, those 24 models were kinda scary in their potential and he had put his bikes directly across from my Objective 1 and 2 so I abandoned that side completely and went diametrically across the board, figuring an Imperial Knight (with SEVEN Hull Points) was less scary. As it turns out that thing could regen points and he had a Techbiker who could fix him so It took a lot of firepower to down it. He also reduced the str of my weapons by 1 (and -2 when its a blast! Imperial Knight magics) and that made it even tougher. Long story short he had his Sicaran Battle Tank left at the end BUT it took til turn four to even wound his Bike Squad and I fired a LOT into it. Once his Commander went down it fell like dominoes but dang...that guy is TOUGH.

4-2, with a good chance to win one more? Fun. i had a good time and my back survived it which is nice.

Jancoran were there other rules in play for that event? ITC, etc? Because the Necron player was correct in the Artillery and Nightscythe rule.

If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains

A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark either before or after it has moved (including pivoting on the spot), even though it is Zooming, so long it has not moved more than 36" in that Movement phase. If a unit disembarks from a Night Scythe after it has moved 24" or more, models in the unit can only fire Snap Shots until the start of their next turn.

Fragile wrote:
Jancoran were there other rules in play for that event? ITC, etc? Because the Necron player was correct in the Artillery and Nightscythe rule.

If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least one gun remains

A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a Night Scythe can disembark either before or after it has moved (including pivoting on the spot), even though it is Zooming, so long it has not moved more than 36" in that Movement phase. If a unit disembarks from a Night Scythe after it has moved 24" or more, models in the unit can only fire Snap Shots until the start of their next turn.

No its not correct on the artillery. They are not Crew, nor the gun. Majority toughness still applies. and the rules SPECIFY that the artillery itrself gains this benefit as defined in the first paragraph of that section. So no. He wasn't right and the ITC does not have an alternate ruling on it. The UNIT doesnt get it. The ARTILLERY and CREW get it. Ive read it twice since then and its clear.

As for the Night Scythe there was more to it, but how much space do i really want to spend descrivbing it? He put his guys through a gap that was too small (which was obviously too small and i showed him it was and he basically said "too bad" and did it anyways), he used the base and not the model for the 36" inch move when no part of the model can move further than 36" (which mattered because SMS could not then see him) and the list goes on. I had models circling the damn thing. there was no room for him to make the move he did. He rushed it and the arguments to that point were enough to dissuade me from going further. Doesnt matter. I beat him. Shouldn't have even been an issue.

About the only thing he was right about was SMS missiles not being able to Intercept if they cant see the target. Did not know that. So if nothing else i did refine my rules knowledge on interceptor. Hurray?

I also had fun at the tournament so although this one game was not, the tournament was.

Jancoran, just because I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, just know that Necron IC toughnesses are all over the place, and as such, with three Pylons, it isn't unreasonable to think the newly formed "unit" still had majority toughness 7, once you account for all the different toughness values. I've played Pylonstar a fair bit now, and have seen many a TO give it to the 'Cron player for a couple of reasons.

Which is not to say the guy couldn't have just been a dick, and was ruining the game for myriad reasons... but its offering a possibility. The Pylons always cause this debate. (Trust me, the Necron tactica thread worked on it for pages at one point, and didn't really settle on definitive answers).

Well you can take those to YDMC, but those are both rules quotes.

Fragile wrote:
Well you can take those to YDMC, but those are both rules quotes.

You left out the most important portion of the rules.


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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Jancoran, just because I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, just know that Necron IC toughnesses are all over the place, and as such, with three Pylons, it isn't unreasonable to think the newly formed "unit" still had majority toughness 7, once you account for all the different toughness values. I've played Pylonstar a fair bit now, and have seen many a TO give it to the 'Cron player for a couple of reasons.

Which is not to say the guy couldn't have just been a dick, and was ruining the game for myriad reasons... but its offering a possibility. The Pylons always cause this debate. (Trust me, the Necron tactica thread worked on it for pages at one point, and didn't really settle on definitive answers).

It was one game. I wouldn't stress over it. this is the Tau thread not the Necron thread. Just reporting my results.

@Jancoran could you post your list here?

 necron99 wrote:
@Jancoran could you post your list here?

Sure.
Total Roster Cost: 1848

: Farsight Enclave Combined Arms Detachment (17#, 909 pts)
440pts 1 KV128 Stormsurge (Twin-linked Airbursting Fragmentation Projector 5 + Early Warning Override 5 + Velocity Tracker 20 + Shield Generator 50)

84pts 1 Sniper Drone Team ( 3 Firesight Marksman [Tau], 39 pts = 3 * 13 and 3 MV71 Sniper Drone [Tau], 45 pts = 3 * 15)

28pts 1 Crisis Shas'ui [Tau], 28 pts = (base cost 22 + Flamer x1 5 + Bonding Knife Ritual 1)

28pts 1 Crisis Shas'ui [Tau], 28 pts = (base cost 22 + Flamer x1 5 + Bonding Knife Ritual 1)

28pts 1 Crisis Shas'ui [Tau], 28 pts = (base cost 22 + Flamer x1 5 + Bonding Knife Ritual 1)

191pts 1 Riptide Shas'vre [Tau], 191 pts = (base cost 180 + Ion Accelerator 5 + Bonding Knife Ritual 1) + Early Warning Override 5

50pts 1 Ethereal (HQ) [Tau], 50 pts

60pts 5 Tau Pathfinders (Bonding Knife Ritual 1)

Formation: Tau Empire Optimized Stealth Cadre (19#, 799 pts)

164pts 5 Stealth Shas'ui (1 x Fusion Blaster + 3 x Advanced Targeting System 3)

167pts 5 Stealth Shas'ui (1 x Fusion Blaster + 4 x Advanced Targeting System 3)

468pts 1 XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit unit as follows:
1 Ghostkeel Shas'vre [Tau], 166 pts = (base cost 130 + Twin Linked Fusion Blaster 10) + Bonding Knife Ritual 1 + Early Warning Override 5 + Velocity Tracker 20)
1 Ghostkeel Shas'vre [Tau], 151 pts = (base cost 130 + Twin Linked Fusion Blaster 10) + Bonding Knife Ritual 1 + Early Warning Override 5 + Target Lock 5)
1 Ghostkeel Shas'vre [Tau], 151 pts = (base cost 130 + Twin Linked Fusion Blaster 10) + Bonding Knife Ritual 1 + Early Warning Override 5 + Target Lock 5)

Officio Assassinorum Detachment (140 pts):
140pts Culexus Assassin