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Eldar still strong without bikes?

Not a big fan of there looks but know they nasty. Would like to build an army around dire avengers, Wave Serpents, and walkers. Maybe sprinkle in spiders and fire dragons? this a good foundation if so what kind of HQ to run with this? Around 1500 points what I'm shooting for.

I'm fairly new to the game and started with two weaker Army's (KDK and GK). Got the units I like not the ones that are good and I been getting my teeth kicked in at my FLGS for about a year.So want to get an army that can compete with everyone's top tier toys. so any advise?

Also this is unrelated but have Eldar always been strong force? Debating between them or vanilla Marine to make a competitive army to play with my WAAC buddies Thanks

The Eldar Codex gets alot of flakk for it, but almost any unit in it is a valid choice. With the exceptions of Rangers, Storm Guardians and Shining Spears, everything is middle-of-the-road or better.

Eldar have had their ups and downs, but have spent long times at the top or near the top of the pile. Particularly 4th I believe, when the skimmer rules were really good. Bit lackluster in 5th maybe, due to having a codex from 4th until well into 6th, but 6th buffed skimmers again.

With Walkers & Spiders, I'd have suggested a Farseer on Bike for Guide, but if you're not keen on the look (duck knows why, I love the new look, just wish they hadn't sat on the sculpt for literally 10 years, and wish they'd it made a Shining Spear dual-kit) I'm not sure what to suggest. The standard HQ's (Farseer, Autarch) rock on a bike but get punked by S6-7 without one. Could I suggest some sort of hoverboard conversion instead? Otherwise, just go with a basic one and hide him in a DA unit.

A Warhost detachment using a Guardian Battlehost as it's core, and then a few Aspect Hosts to fill out your auxiliary choices is a strong army which doesn't need to include any jetbikes at all.

Thanks both of you for the help. I'm not 100% against putting a Farseer on Bike or having some for troops. Just like the look of troops in waves better. Thanks again

Rangers get a lot of flack, but I love them, and use them in more games than I use my bikes. They're cheap, and with shrouding they don't die very easily. Infiltrate to the corners and make your opponent flush them out. I never count on them to kill anything, but that's never why I take them, the rest of my army does that just fine.

looking over the troop options in Battle scribe I did not realize Eldars troop rifle where such short range (only have played against them once). Guess i'm going to have to learn to like bikes......

Grimlineman wrote:
looking over the troop options in Battle scribe I did not realize Eldars troop rifle where such short range (only have played against them once). Guess i'm going to have to learn to like bikes......

The short range of the Shuriken Catapaults are mitigated by Battle Focus. No other army has basic infantry that are as mobile as Eldar.

Rangers are useful, but only as cheap scoring bodies that also happen to be rather survivable. Believe it or not, a Guardian squad in cover is more durable than a jetbike squad.

Go with what you like, and make it work?

Quick overview of non-Bike troops:
-Storm Guardians - ignore for now - don't start with them
-Guardian Defenders - Your basic troops. Sit back/midfield and hold an objective. Potshots with their HWP. Probably a brightlance. One BL probably wont change the game, but it is a nice weapon that certainly helps. Between the BL and holding the objective (they can counter fairly well if something that's not a vehicle decides to get really close), they can be very worth it.
-Rangers. Hold backfield objectives. In cover. Takes a little more than a stiff breeze to kill them. Its the ObSec you're paying for, not their guns. They might do a wound or kill a special weapon guy from time to time, but don't rely on that.
-DAs. These guys can push, but they can't hold. If you can control the engagement entirely, they can beat Marines. But you're paying Marine points. Expect them to do some damage, but also expect them to die fast if small arms come their way. Lascannons or plasma guns aren't so scary, but those boltguns are scary. They are a lot of fun.

Generally, if you want to go WAAC, only the Windriders are troops at that level. To unlock a Warhost, you can do 3xGuardians, but then you won't care about other troops.

A DA Shrine in a Warhost can do some damage, but then you have 30+ Guardians on the board, then add 15-30 DAs, which puts you at substantial overkill when it comes to small arms, without really gaining more utility.

CAD non-WAAC armies are different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battle Focus helps. But it means your threat range is now 24", compared to Tacs, Guardsmen, etc at 30", FW and Bikes of all kinds at 36". And you are in easy charge range if anything survives. (Point for point, enough Tacs survive to make you a very sad Eldar player, for example).

Thanks for the help thus far. Thinking 3 battle force boxes to get me started with troops and wave serpents. Good purchase?

Grimlineman wrote:
Thanks for the help thus far. Thinking 3 battle force boxes to get me started with troops and wave serpents. Good purchase?

Unless they've been replaced, the Battle Boxes will contain the old 2nd edition jetbike models. They were replaced for a good reason. You also can't get three of the same heavy weapon on the bike squad, and any heavy weapons will have to be kitbashed. As far as getting other basic troops, I would say that two Battle Boxes would be enough to get what you'll need out of the units they provide.

If you want to focus on avengers and serpents with war walker and spider support, the generic HQs (farseer and autarch) can both work well. The autarch can be given a warp spiver pack so that he can hang out with your spiders, and he'll give you some snazzy bonuses to your reserves if you want to deepstrike your spiders or outflank your war walkers. The farseer is frustrating in that he can't use any of his while on a transport (we haven't figured out how to use psychic powers while we're car sick or how to put holes in our cars to shoot out of), but he pairs nicely with an avenger squad. Rerollable 4+ armor is surprisingly durable if you get Fortune off, doom and guide both make avenger catapults much more lethal, and the shooty runes of fate powers can either add to your avengers' salvo or else taret a different, better target. Or you can just use your avengers as a platform to hide your farseer in that gets a save against bolter fire while he casts to support other units.

As has been mentioned, eldar have great internal balance. There aren't a lot of "bad" units, and even hose are generally pretty usable in friendly games. For some reason, angry internet people consider that a bad thing...

As has been pointed out above, rangers are perfectly usable as cheap objective holders, and they're actually pretty alright at hurting monstrous creatures. Storm guardians tend to die rather easily after they do something, but a pair of fusion guns and a singing spear warlock make for a reasonably potent anti-tank squad if you don't mind buying them a wave serpent to ride in. The warlock may or may not also be able to buff the squad's durability and melee punch, so there's that. Think of storm guardians as dangerous close-ranged shooters rather than melee combatants.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Grimlineman wrote:
Thanks for the help thus far. Thinking 3 battle force boxes to get me started with troops and wave serpents. Good purchase?

Unless they've been replaced, the Battle Boxes will contain the old 2nd edition jetbike models. They were replaced for a good reason. You also can't get three of the same heavy weapon on the bike squad, and any heavy weapons will have to be kitbashed. As far as getting other basic troops, I would say that two Battle Boxes would be enough to get what you'll need out of the units they provide.

The Battleforce dosn't contain any bikes, only a Vyper (which is needed for the Guardian Battlehost), the older one had a War Walker instead (also needed for the Battlehost).

Three should sort you out quite well for a foot / mech based Eldar army.

My comment about Rangers seems to have irked some people, so I apologise. Though I'd still suggest staying away from an Alaitoc-theemed army outside of friendly games.

so would you recommend the new boxes with the vyper or should i try to find the old boxes with the walker Quanar?

Grimlineman wrote:
so would you recommend the new boxes with the vyper or should i try to find the old boxes with the walker Quanar?

I can't imagine that the old ones would be easy to find, but the difference largely depends on you - both Vypers and Walkers fill similar roles, with slightly more weapons on the Walker, but more speed (slightly, after acounting for Battle Focus there's not alot in it). They are both needed for a Battlehost (the logical extension of the three boxes if you wanted a Warhost, though there's no reason you can't just use a CAD).

I love my Walkers, but have been meaning to try Vypers as well.

Based off of your preferences, read through the Craftworld Warhost rules and start with the Guardian Host as your base. The rules play very well, provides flexibility and you can avoid using Jetbikes.

Eldar are a fantastic choice, we are indeed the chosen race. ^_^

You asked for ''want to get an army that can compete with everyone's top tier toys.'' in that case get the Jetbikes ready. Eldar ground ''troop'' choices are extremely lackluster. You touched on wave serpent spam, but in those instances you are using bare minimal troop to try to ''unlock'' serpents. Also massing wave serpents isn't really that effective anymore, if we are talking about an army for competitive events/play.

Allot of people here have equated taking an optimized list with being WAAC, this is quite boring really. A WAAC player is the guy who will cheat and act in an un sportsmanship like way etc. A Competitive player is somebody who goes to tournaments because he likes the challenge of facing top tier players and lists be they Marines, Necrons, Eldar, codex Flyrants, Knights etc etc etc. They can be just as fun/enjoyable to play as the fluffiest flufflord in an appropriate setting. Taking a jet bike army doesn't make you some kind of donkey-cave, in fact it can be the very definition of fluffy, it's called Saim Hann .

That said it is utterly boring and pointless to rock up to your FLGS with a fully optimized list to smash non-optimised armies, it takes no skill and is not fun for either player. However it sounds like your FLGS players are playing competitive armies, so why handicap yourself if they are not going to? Also if you are making this your competitive army, as a contrast to your earlier fluffier ones, why spend large amounts of money on not necessarily the better choices?

Since you stated your dislike for Jetbikes, avoid massing them. However the central core of almost all the good Eldar armies outside of CAD is the Windrider Host. A Jetbike Farseer, Warlock, 9 Guardian bikes and a Vyper. From there you can go into all the foot units you like via the Aspect host/heroes of the craftworld etc addons.

(Sorry, Shade, I should have said competitive, not WAAC.)

Thanks shade you make a lot of good points. I already have two army's to play non competitively . Not wanting to spend more money on sub par list. Looks like I need bikes. That was the reason I made the thread to see if troops could do as well as bikes and the answer is a clear no. thanks everyone again.

I disagree with Shade.

Eldar have some of the best infantry in the game. If you take the formation that allows for +1BS, you can get amazing anti-tank in Fire dragons, amazing anti-infantry in dire avengers and warp spiders, and some very good CC in striking scorpions.

The bikes are the strongest unit in the dex, of course, but the Aspect warriors are solid. The only unit I would say is weak is maybe the Storm Guardians. They still aren't horrible, but I wouldn't take them to a tournament. This is dependent on how competitive your local meta is, as this can vary widely.

Do you know what is commonly played at tournaments? Do you guys do maelstorm missions or no? Are formations allowed, allies, that kinda stuff? This will change the advice.

Akiasura wrote:
I disagree with Shade.

Eldar have some of the best infantry in the game. If you take the formation that allows for +1BS, you can get amazing anti-tank in Fire dragons, amazing anti-infantry in dire avengers and warp spiders, and some very good CC in striking scorpions.

The bikes are the strongest unit in the dex, of course, but the Aspect warriors are solid. The only unit I would say is weak is maybe the Storm Guardians. They still aren't horrible, but I wouldn't take them to a tournament. This is dependent on how competitive your local meta is, as this can vary widely.

Do you know what is commonly played at tournaments? Do you guys do maelstorm missions or no? Are formations allowed, allies, that kinda stuff? This will change the advice.

I never said Eldar had bad ''Infantry''.... I said That Eldar's Troop outside of Bikes are extremely lackluster.

If you actually read my post, you will see I advised him to take multiple aspect hosts (the +1 addon) to fill up on his desired infantry models, just utilizing the Windrider host to anchor the list down. He can fill up his list with Reapers/Spiders and Hawks Hosts and have a fantastic list. He can also add on War Walkers or Fighters or w/e he likes for flavor.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I disagree with Shade.

Eldar have some of the best infantry in the game. If you take the formation that allows for +1BS, you can get amazing anti-tank in Fire dragons, amazing anti-infantry in dire avengers and warp spiders, and some very good CC in striking scorpions.

The bikes are the strongest unit in the dex, of course, but the Aspect warriors are solid. The only unit I would say is weak is maybe the Storm Guardians. They still aren't horrible, but I wouldn't take them to a tournament. This is dependent on how competitive your local meta is, as this can vary widely.

Do you know what is commonly played at tournaments? Do you guys do maelstorm missions or no? Are formations allowed, allies, that kinda stuff? This will change the advice.

I never said Eldar had bad ''Infantry''.... I said That Eldar's Troop outside of Bikes are extremely lackluster.

And I disagreed. I'm not sure how you can call the most mobile infantry in the game, with some nice firepower, lackluster.
Aspect warriors have some of the largest amount of special rules in the game for an infantry unit. They are capable of amazing things. Their leaders give unique bonuses and have unique wargear, often times this is extremely useful. As someone who plays marine armies mainly, I do not see how you can call eldar infantry lackluster.
The fact they have a formation that upgrades the best stat in the game (BS) is amazing. I'll grant the bikes are better for numerous reasons, but if Aspect Warriors are lackluster I'd hate to see how you describe every other infantry unit in the game.
Extremely lackluster is just way out there in being wrong. Chaos marines are extremely lackluster. They lack good special rules, their leaders are boring and don't do anything other than provide a combi weapon.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

If you actually read my post, you will see I advised him to take multiple aspect hosts (the +1 addon) to fill up on his desired infantry models, just utilizing the Windrider host to anchor the list down. He can fill up his list with Reapers/Spiders and Hawks Hosts and have a fantastic list. He can also add on War Walkers or Fighters or w/e he likes for flavor.

And again, I did read your post (why do people assume someone disagreeing with them hasn't read what they wrote on this forum?), I just disagreed with it.
Windrider host is only needed in the most competitive formats. He never defined how competitive his meta is (in my experience, few people define their meta as extremely casual. No one wants to believe their local players aren't very good) and in all but the most cutthroat meta's, Aspect warriors do fine.
I also wouldn't take Reapers and hawks in a competitive meta, or war walkers. Fire dragons are amazing, especially against Knights and MC spam lists. Spiders are good at plinking away at deathstars, since they cause a lot of wounds and can avoid a lot of incoming firepower. They also boast 3+ saves, which helps a bit except against grav cent star.
I can't speak to the fighters, as I don't own one and have never seen it in action.

Waveserpents are good and are one of the best transports in the game. They lose out to free razorbacks and the necrons, but are probably the best right after that. A few fire dragon units with wave serpents can do some damage against knights and mcs, especially with the BS +1 formation.

Aspect Warriors certainly got a boost, but I think you're overselling it.

Let's start with troops.

Rangers. Sniper Scouts, but with Shrouded in exchange for: 4+, T4, S4, optional HW, DTs, grenades, and Chapter Tactics. Some of those you probably don't care for, but as a whole, that's quite a lot. Clearly they don't outclass sniper scouts.

DAs. Generally taken as CAD troops or Shrine. As CAD troops they are BS4. They pack a punch, but are shortish range, and die easily. Tons of special rules, but as it has been argued to death, the lackluster basic CSM beats them when spammed (DAs would kill the CSMs in turn 10, but CSMs do whatever they want up until then - so win anything but kill points). Yes they are good at what they do, but don't oversell them.

In an Aspect Shrine? You're adding them to probably a Warhost, or possibly another CAD. So you need 2-3 other troops. In that case you still need more troops. So back to GJB vs other troops.

Storm Guardians we covered. For the price of a MG/CombiMG Tac squad in a Pod, you can get a pair of Fusion guns and a Singing Spear. For twice the cost of that Tac squad + pod, you can throw them in a Serpent.

Guardian Defenders sans Warhost are basically a GEQ- equiv of a 5man Tac without Specials. They can take a heavy weapon, just like Tacs. They can move and fire, though. At the cost of 12" shorter range in many cases. Hit a bit harder closer up, and a bit cheaper, but die a lot faster.

In a Warhost, Guardian Defenders are a threat, as what should be a huge drawback (12" range) doesn't hurt nearly as much when you have a guaranteed 12" move. Still not amazing, though.

CWE units certainly have a lot of special rules. And much of the dex is mindbogglingly broken. But the Infantry Troops aren't that amazing. Not terrible either, though.

@Akiasura,

You keep using ''Infantry'', ''Aspect warriors'' and ''Troops'' interchangeably. These are only the same thing for one unit: Dire Avengers. Grimlineman asked for direction on an Eldar list that could ''compete with everyone's top tier toys.'' There is no reason to take Guardians, Storm Guardians or Dire Avengers in a Competitive Eldar army because they are in the same slot as Jetbikes. If you are taking non Jetbike troops you can still have a good eldar army, but you have intentionally handicapped yourself.

Rangers have a role in lists like Seer Council I suppose, but you are talking about taking a single 5 man auxiliary, that's about it.

The OP wanted something different to his two fluffy armies why would I advise him to buy the 2nd and 3rd choice troops, just buy the first choice. 40k is expensive enough as it is.

No offense but the fact that you think, in relation to Competitive tournament Eldar, that Striking Scorpions are good and that Swooping Hawks are not competitive, really raises eyebrows. Hawks are one of the best units in the entire codex.... You don't have to take my word for it just go check out the Variety of Eldar lists used at this years ETC and ESC. Some of Europe's top players are represented.

As for FDs, yeah they didn't need the buff. But you may be overselling it. Sure, two units in Serpents will probably torch an IK. But they cost more. And then die.

Compare to the BA podded ASM melta. 150-ish for 3 MGs in a pod? FDs come in, for a 5man in a stock Serpent, at 220. Better at blowing things up, but much more expensive, much harder to get on target, much slower to get on target, and much less likely to survive after shooting. Still a little better overall, but not as clear cut as it seems.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:
@Akiasura,

You keep using ''Infantry'', ''Aspect warriors'' and ''Troops'' interchangeably. These are only the same thing for one unit: Dire Avengers. Grimlineman asked for direction on an Eldar list that could ''compete with everyone's top tier toys.'' There is no reason to take Guardians, Storm Guardians or Dire Avengers in a Competitive Eldar army because they are in the same slot as Jetbikes. If you are taking non Jetbike troops you can still have a good eldar army, but you have intentionally handicapped yourself.

Sorry about using the words as if they mean the same thing. I come from 3rd edition Biel-Tann, where they did mean the same thing, and I still refer to them all as troops. I'll try to stop doing so, I can see how that confuses things.
Looking at the OPs post, he seems to want Aspect warriors (he never mentions guardians) and tanks.
I agree that Jetbikes are the best troop. I never said they weren't (in fact, in each post I refer to them as the best choice compared to ALL aspect warriors, troop section or no). My point is simply that eldar troops are not bad, and lackluster was too far.
For troops, I'd probably take two min units of Rangers for objective holding and walk away. DA are not bad compared to other troop choices in other factions, but pretty much every faction has bad troops.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

Rangers have a role in lists like Seer Council I suppose, but you are talking about taking a single 5 man auxiliary, that's about it.

The OP wanted something different to his two fluffy armies why would I advise him to buy the 2nd and 3rd choice troops, just buy the first choice. 40k is expensive enough as it is.

Right, I was using Aspect warriors and Troops as the same words. If you'll look at the units I mentioned taking though, clearly I pointed out Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders as being the clear winners, and didn't mention spamming actual troop choices. I can't think of many successful armies that spam troop choices, outside of formations.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

No offense but the fact that you think, in relation to Competitive tournament Eldar, that Striking Scorpions are good and that Swooping Hawks are not competitive , really raises eyebrows. Hawks are one of the best units in the entire codex.... You don't have to take my word for it just go check out the Variety of Eldar lists used at this years ETC and ESC. Some of Europe's top players are represented.

I don't think you understood what I said exactly.
I said that striking scorpions are a very good CC unit. And compared to other CC units, they are good. If you ranked all the CC units in the game, I would expect them to be in the Top 3rd. This is in response to your "lackluster" comment.
If you looked at the units I suggested taking for a good tournament army, you'll notice that striking scorpions are not on the list. CC units, out of deathstars and an extremely small list of units, are bad. Very bad. But as far as CC units go they are very good.

I'm not at all aware of the European Meta. I just looked at a few European countries just now, and saw mainly wind riders (not surprised) and 2 units of warp spiders in every list.
I saw one, out of 4, lists include swooping hawks. Min sized squad with their Phoenix Lord. Is this how they are typically run? Honest question, because I am not finding many lists containing hawks at all, and I didn't see anything their surprising (Bharroth was taken quite a bit in 3rd as well, I've used him and he's good. But the hawks are just a delivery system for him).

If you misunderstood my argument due to my word selection, my mistake.



@Bharring,
Your FD to BA podded example is poor.
A FD squad in serpent, especially with the +1 BS, will blow up any tank in the game, pretty much from T2 on. You'll lose the FD or the Serpent, both of which are good (the FD doesn't need the serpent after T2 since they aren't that slow and are likely in the middle of your army). It might not blow up a Knight, but a knight is expensive enough where you can justify using two squads. How much fire power does it take to kill 2 squads and a serpent? Because every unit in that squad is dangerous, including the transport.

A BA unit with 3MGs, however, will not blow up most tanks barring some lucky rolls. They will usually cause 2 hull points of damage, so are relying on the lucky pen to blow up a tank. Realistically, you want 2 pods targetting a tank, a 300 point investment, which loses 2 MG and the pods become useless. To blow up a knight you are probably looking at ~4 units, somehow all getting into range of the knight.


As for your aspect warrior argument, literally the only aspect warrior you mentioned is DA. I have no desire to rehash that out again, but DA manage to do pretty well against a lot of targets (especially out of cover, or with buffs from the Farseer). DA are one of the worse Aspects as well, along with Howling Banshees and Shining Spears.
I would hardly call DA lackluster either. I didn't mention taking them in the competitive list, I just don't think they are lackluster. It seems you don't either, judging by your last sentence in your post.

My "Aspect Warrior" argument was not an Aspect Warrior argument. You're doing that again. It was a *troops* comparison. I did say I thought you were overselling Aspect Warriors, but then said I was discussing troops. As most of what I listed are not Aspect Warriors, I thought that was clear.

This s conversation is about *troops* in a *competitive* list. So seeing the troops as being not a competitive option is kinda saying the same thing: that, for competitive lists, CWE infantry troops choices are lackluster. Bad is going too far (aside from Storm Guardians), but lackluster, in this scope, is quite appropriate.

150pts:220pts is actually really, really close to the 3MG:5FG. So, in points per melta shot, you're paying about the same. And Serpents aren't the Auto-deployment people seem to think they are. But we're a bit off topic, as FDs aren't troops.

@Akiasura,

The Op was wondering if he could substitute out bikes for foot troop units while making a competitive Eldar Army to play vs the competitive lists at his FLGS and in Tournaments. I was trying to show him that this is a very bad idea, true, eldar foot troops might look good next to chaos space marines but practically everything in the game looks good vs them because CSM are pure thrash.
Eldar foot troops (Guardians, Storms and Avengers) have terrible range and terrible survivability. You can try to compensate for this by putting dire avengers in serpents, but then what you have is a 6th ed eldar army from the 6th ed codex. This is a different edition and it's a different Eldar codex.

I am trying to accommodate the OP's wishes for having allot of Infantry by suggesting he utilizes the Aspect Host's to spam out his Infantry BUT he needs to keep the foundation solid. That foundation is the Windrider Host. He only takes 11 bikes total, 9 troop, Farseer and the Lock. Even geared up out that's like 460 points plenty of room for his Infantry.

You don't take Units in isolation and say Scorpions are top third cc unit, Eldar have no delivery system for them and they don't really synergise with how the Eldar Competitive lists tend to play. They are a huge waste of points.

With regards to those lists, Hawks are used in units of 5-6 with an exarch and added into Aspect Hosts. Bharroth is for the Seer council lists, that's another kettle of fish.

Craftworlds is a fantastic Codex, one of the best GW has ever done. Lots of the stuff is really usable even in top tournaments (that's why I said the Op could be fairly freehanded in adding flavour), however the one part of the Codex that really isn't open to interpretation is the Troops, it's just a
no-brainer what to take.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:
@Akiasura,

The Op was wondering if he could substitute out bikes for foot troop units while making a competitive Eldar Army to play vs the competitive lists at his FLGS and in Tournaments. I was trying to show him that this is a very bad idea, true, eldar foot troops might look good next to chaos space marines but practically everything in the game looks good vs them because CSM are pure thrash.

He mentioned taking Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, and Dragons. At no point did he mention any other foot troops. I took his use of foot troops to mean "Aspect Warriors", since he only listed Aspect warriors and I tend to view the terms as equivalent (few eldar players enjoy the guardians, IME). I agree that Avengers aren't good in a competitive meta, mainly because most troop choices aren't. I'd take bikes or min units of rangers if you really hate bikes. I don't think 2 min squads of rangers will hamper an army to a large degree, but this is purely subjective on how cut throat the meta is.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

Eldar foot troops (Guardians, Storms and Avengers) have terrible range and terrible survivability. You can try to compensate for this by putting dire avengers in serpents, but then what you have is a 6th ed eldar army from the 6th ed codex. This is a different edition and it's a different Eldar codex.

Agreed. Again, the only unit he mentioned taking out of the list is Avengers.
I wouldn't put DA's in WS, but WS are still an excellent tank.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

I am trying to accommodate the OP's wishes for having allot of Infantry by suggesting he utilizes the Aspect Host's to spam out his Infantry BUT he needs to keep the foundation solid. That foundation is the Windrider Host. He only takes 11 bikes total, 9 troop, Farseer and the Lock. Even geared up out that's like 460 points plenty of room for his Infantry.

I won't ever say that taking bikes is a bad choice. The bikes are probably the best unit in the entire game.
If his meta is truly cutthroat, taking a unit is helpful. Honestly, the more bikes the better. I don't think you HAVE to take them unless you are playing at the top 0.1% of the competitive world though. The eldar codex is really that strong.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

You don't take Units in isolation and say Scorpions are top third cc unit, Eldar have no delivery system for them and they don't really synergise with how the Eldar Competitive lists tend to play. They are a huge waste of points.

I disagree. In an ultra competitive list, yes they aren't good. This is because, currently, the only good CC units are death stars and wraiths.
But I believe scorpions are in the top 3rd for best CC unit. They beat out most things in most codexes. They certainly aren't a lackluster choice, being one of the better CC units out there.
And again, I wasn't saying they should go in a competitive list. Merely claiming they aren't lackluster.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

With regards to those lists, Hawks are used in units of 5-6 with an exarch and added into Aspect Hosts. Bharroth is for the Seer council lists, that's another kettle of fish.

Do you have a link? I checked a few countries from this year and saw exactly 1 person taking it, and only with Bharroth in the list. I certainly didn't see it spammed, like wind riders and warp spiders are. I didn't check everyone, could you point me to a specific list or country?
I wouldn't call hawks one of the best with that representation. I have quite a bit of hawks and would love to field them if there is something I'm not seeing, but I honestly didn't see them being taken in the numbers you are suggesting.

 Shade of Asuryan wrote:

Craftworlds is a fantastic Codex, one of the best GW has ever done. Lots of the stuff is really usable even in top tournaments (that's why I said the Op could be fairly freehanded in adding flavour), however the one part of the Codex that really isn't open to interpretation is the Troops, it's just a
no-brainer what to take.

I never disagreed with you taking bikes as Troops being the best option.
But you can probably take two min units of rangers and it won't impact you heavily. Aspect warriors are worse than bikes, but still perform quite well compared to what most dexes can bring.

Internal balance, the Eldar codex is pretty good. You remove a few OP units and the rest of the dex is good and pretty even.
External balance, it's garbage and bad for the game. But that's wildly off topic.

So would all 3 of us agree on this?

GJB are the most competitive CWE troop choice, with the others not being very competitive. However, with the CWE dex, a reasonably competitive army could be made using non-GJB troops.

Bharring,
Yeah I think that's a fair statement.

I'd probably want to include what Aspect Warriors are worth taking, just so the OP doesn't go out and buy a bunch of shining spears (like I did, because I liked the Samurai/Knight blend they had going on).

I think we can also agree that Dragons and Spiders are probably the best Aspect Warriors. I'm unsure about Hawks now and would like to hear more about why they are useful.