Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Drones are the most reliable to me. Even without DCs around. Reason being, Skyrays' markerlight potential are merely a side bonus, you dont EVER take one because it offers 2 markerlights because its expensive as gak for said marks and it cant move if it wants to reliably fire both due to vehicle problems. Heck my skyray i use all the time usually just buffs itself to BS5, fires its SMS, and if i got the 2nd light cool if not o well i brought it for the missileboat and giant mobile wall not the markerlights.

Pathfinders are even worse in the mobility department and i dont care how much cover they have, T3 means they die quick. Theres a reason why rate of fire kills terminators - eventually you fail that 2+ armor and you have no backup. T4 at least makes most of the high rate of fire guns wound on a 4+, T3 makes it all wound on a 3+ and everything else a 2+. Even with something giving my pathfinders a 3+ cover, they die by turn 3 at the latest, usually during the first firing turn my opponent gets though. I'll take them in large games because then i can sacrifice the points easier to make them double as a distraction unit, since they do draw a lot of firepower.

You don't run Sky Rays for markerlights true, you run them for seeker missiles, they are much more useful than anyone gives them credit for. Every markerlight gives them ignores cover, bs 5 and can be shot at literally anything on the board. Their networked markerlights are a GOOD side bonus though. I'm wondering if you can use them in a coordinated strike to increase the bs of the other units shooting in it as well. That would be amazing.

As for pathfinders. They aren't as flimsy as you say they are. I run them in every one of my lists and I think they have gotten a substantial improvement with this update as well. Some of my opponents don't even bother shooting at them in cover. Most of them are too busy worrying about my riptide, broadsides, and deep striking crisis suits. I usually ran them in 2 squads of 7 for markerlights and any squad I hit with them got blasted with ignores cover and increased BS units as well as seeker missiles. Now with the new formation you HAVE to take 3 units of pathfinders for the infiltration cadre with is absolutely amazing. If you get 3 or more markerlight hits on a single squad you can launch a seeker missile for FREE, that means you don't need to use a sky ray seeker missile! Also if you run a suicide piranha and full out the thing for early game objectives and infiltrate the stealth suits up for more objectives you can get one of them killed for the greater good and then ALL your reserves come in next turn.

If your not convinced that pathfinders are any good by this then go back to your expensive Marker'O set up.

More concerned with killing the riptides than the pathfinders?

....wat?

That tells me that your opponents are still fixated on the "Must kill coolest model first!" mentality. Riptides WANT that mentality, theyre pretty meh without ML support barring some really nice dice luck. I consistently lose my shots to gets hot or insane scatter dice when i dont use multiple MLs on them.
Ever since i told my opponents to simply ignore the Riptide unless they can reliably wound it (pen its armor) and go for the supporting stuff, theyve been beating me a LOT more than usual. Ive lost games when i brought a duo riptide combo where the only wound the riptides had was a botched Gets Hot save.

Thats why i hate pathfinders. If your opponent actually lets them live, yeah theyre amazing. Who the heck in their right mind lets them stay alive when theyre so easy to kill and have a massive payoff when you succeed at it?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Remoras are heavily underestimated. Theyre usually regarded as "decent" but in truth theyre pretty darn good.

They, alongside Barracudas, are the two main FW units ive wanted for awhile. Costs deter me though, since i need the book too.

Also theyre our third skyfire ML source. Codex flier has a markerlight, but i'd rather field a CAD to get a handful of Remoras than take any of those atrocities in my formation. If they were ~100pts i'd take them, but more expensive, squishier, and unreliable than a Hammerhead? No fethin way lol. And of course Skyrays have VTs.

The problem with remoras, is that they are a pack hunter.
A single one is actually pretty poor, and a group is freaking expensive.
And in the end of the day, they don't bring TOO much to the table.


Like many jets (and tanks, IE railhead), they could shine in large scale games with huge tables, but on the 4X6 standard size, they are just not employing everything they have.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
More concerned with killing the riptides than the pathfinders?

....wat?

That tells me that your opponents are still fixated on the "Must kill coolest model first!" mentality. Riptides WANT that mentality, theyre pretty meh without ML support barring some really nice dice luck. I consistently lose my shots to gets hot or insane scatter dice when i dont use multiple MLs on them.
Ever since i told my opponents to simply ignore the Riptide unless they can reliably wound it (pen its armor) and go for the supporting stuff, theyve been beating me a LOT more than usual. Ive lost games when i brought a duo riptide combo where the only wound the riptides had was a botched Gets Hot save.

Thats why i hate pathfinders. If your opponent actually lets them live, yeah theyre amazing. Who the heck in their right mind lets them stay alive when theyre so easy to kill and have a massive payoff when you succeed at it?

Part of the reason people still insist riptides are OP beyond belief even without the IA.

As for "letting the pathfinders life" prolem, that's what infiltration cadre is for.
"Kill my pathfinders, I dare you!"

I swear some of our new formations are so trolltastic its genius, totally captures the Kayoun class of war.

Took 2 squads of seven pathfinders, scouted them into ruins, and they both died turn one before they could even fire, due to skitarri turn 1 BS7 shooting

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
Took 2 squads of seven pathfinders, scouted them into ruins, and they both died turn one before they could even fire, due to skitarri turn 1 BS7 shooting

Which is why i feel like squads of marker drones are better than pathfinders. They may have lower BS, but being able to JSJ keeps them from getting killed turn 1.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
Took 2 squads of seven pathfinders, scouted them into ruins, and they both died turn one before they could even fire, due to skitarri turn 1 BS7 shooting

If you're running the hunter contingent that really shouldn't happen. If you're within 12" of your commander, you can run and shoot. So just hide those pathfinders out of LOS, and use their run move to establish LOS on your turn. Not movement so you still fire at full BS. Only works once but still good

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
Took 2 squads of seven pathfinders, scouted them into ruins, and they both died turn one before they could even fire, due to skitarri turn 1 BS7 shooting

Which is why i feel like squads of marker drones are better than pathfinders. They may have lower BS, but being able to JSJ keeps them from getting killed turn 1.

Without the commander joining i feel like the drones would be a waste unless you take like 8 markers or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 luke1705 wrote:

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
Took 2 squads of seven pathfinders, scouted them into ruins, and they both died turn one before they could even fire, due to skitarri turn 1 BS7 shooting

If you're running the hunter contingent that really shouldn't happen. If you're within 12" of your commander, you can run and shoot. So just hide those pathfinders out of LOS, and use their run move to establish LOS on your turn. Not movement so you still fire at full BS. Only works once but still good

So, brand new shenanigans are the only thing that should make them viable? lol I dont like the buffmander and outside of tournament cheese list I probably wont ever bother with the hunter contingent.

I'm only interested in running Pathfinders in the Infiltration Cadre. Outside it, Tetras are much better

 Wolfnid420 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
Took 2 squads of seven pathfinders, scouted them into ruins, and they both died turn one before they could even fire, due to skitarri turn 1 BS7 shooting

If you're running the hunter contingent that really shouldn't happen. If you're within 12" of your commander, you can run and shoot. So just hide those pathfinders out of LOS, and use their run move to establish LOS on your turn. Not movement so you still fire at full BS. Only works once but still good

So, brand new shenanigans are the only thing that should make them viable? lol I dont like the buffmander and outside of tournament cheese list I probably wont ever bother with the hunter contingent.

You do you boo boo. Just pointing out that it doesn't have to be that way

 Vector Strike wrote:
I'm only interested in running Pathfinders in the Infiltration Cadre. Outside it, Tetras are much better

Yes, with a big load of battlesuits ready to deep strike if the opponent decides to gank 'em.

For me it will be tetras. I used to go with pathfinders but as has already been mentioned they died way too fast. When I switched to tetras I never looked back. I give them disruption pods and sensor spines. I always has some alive till the end of the battle. I'll pass on the formations to use them.

yellowfever wrote:
For me it will be tetras. I used to go with pathfinders but as has already been mentioned they died way too fast. When I switched to tetras I never looked back. I give them disruption pods and sensor spines. I always has some alive till the end of the battle. I'll pass on the formations to use them.

I've been thinking about this long and hard; If you were to assume the formation only provides ML sharing & +1BS bonus, its a toss up between additional markerlight delivery and the inherent benefit of the Taucurion formation.

A drone squad @ 56pts per 4. That's 4x BS3* shots. A tetra is 35pts for 2x bs3 TL shots.
*Assuming you are making use of the combined fire rule, which isn't always the case

You are required to field at least 1-2 squads of drones, at minimum expenditure for the Taucurion. The tetra are definitely more durable and also more mobile; a fast skimmer platform gives you options with regards to objectives across the board.

So now you are contending with the inherent +1bs bonus for you 'active' units (As you will be using the combined fire rules most of the time, for your heavy hitters), with the ability to take a simple CAD.

With regards to Tetra upgrades.. I'd suggest, rather than upgrade two, buy a third?

As ever, don't forget the homing beacon on the Tetras; that can really make a mess of your opponents day. Great for flanking Knights, etc.

Can Strike Teams take a markerlight on the shas'ui?

zerosignal wrote:
Can Strike Teams take a markerlight on the shas'ui?

for 25lts. Even IF target locks worked with Combined Fire.. thats alot!

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Technically that is correct however nothing says it has to be a buffmander. The buffmander part only makes them reroll, but theyre BS5 because of ANY commander + Drone controller

But with the hunter contingent you are really limited to 1 commander unless you take 1 of 2 cadre that are point expensive

YOU ARE USING A HUNTER CONTINGENT
Buffmander is the best asset for you when you are using combined firepower
E.G
Declare you are using Combined Firepower with Buffmander and other units
Use the C&C Node and (i forgot its name) to give everything Ignores Cover AND Twin-Linked
Then use the P.E.N to give everything Monster hunter,Tank hunter ect...

Why are people thinking that pathfinders are a lost cause? First off, they are not. You just have to be smart about where you position them. Cover is absolutely KEY. Without cover they are sitting ducks and will die without fulfilling their purposes. Secondly, they just got a substantial buff in this update that people are failing to mention, they can get a FREE seeker missile hit if they get enough marker light hits on a unit using the infiltration cadre. Thirdly, pathfinders are MUCH cheaper than a buffmander squad. Finally, think about other uses for your buffmander, like being in a broadside squad in an FBSC. That can deal some substantial firepower with a coordinated attack.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
Why are people thinking that pathfinders are a lost cause? First off, they are not. You just have to be smart about where you position them. Cover is absolutely KEY. Without cover they are sitting ducks and will die without fulfilling their purposes. Secondly, they just got a substantial buff in this update that people are failing to mention, they can get a FREE seeker missile hit if they get enough marker light hits on a unit using the infiltration cadre. Thirdly, pathfinders are MUCH cheaper than a buffmander squad. Finally, think about other uses for your buffmander, like being in a broadside squad in an FBSC. That can deal some substantial firepower with a coordinated attack.

Even with cover they will die in 1 turn. t3 with a 4+ cover save will not last very long.

Free seeker missile is not that great of a buff, and a vast majority of people will not be taking that cadre so the "buff" is mute

Pathfinders are cheaper than buffmander, but hit half as many times and die before being useful, so those points are wasted

notredameguy10 wrote:

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
Why are people thinking that pathfinders are a lost cause? First off, they are not. You just have to be smart about where you position them. Cover is absolutely KEY. Without cover they are sitting ducks and will die without fulfilling their purposes. Secondly, they just got a substantial buff in this update that people are failing to mention, they can get a FREE seeker missile hit if they get enough marker light hits on a unit using the infiltration cadre. Thirdly, pathfinders are MUCH cheaper than a buffmander squad. Finally, think about other uses for your buffmander, like being in a broadside squad in an FBSC. That can deal some substantial firepower with a coordinated attack.

Even with cover they will die in 1 turn. t3 with a 4+ cover save will not last very long.

Now try being any army which relies on Cover saves versus Tau.

Crazy how that works, right?

Free seeker missile is not that great of a buff, and a vast majority of people will not be taking that cadre so the "buff" is mute

Moot. The buff is not concerned with having an inability to be heard.

Free Seeker Missiles and the ability to bring in your Reserves when a unit dies. If Pathfinders die so easily, that's a small price to pay for a Retaliation Cadre coming in without you needing to roll at the start of your next turn.

Pathfinders are cheaper than buffmander, but hit half as many times and die before being useful, so those points are wasted

Pathfinders are cheaper than Buffmander, have the ability to contain 10 models per unit throwing Markerlight shots downrange, and can be a really big nuisance.

If you even use reserves, i typically dont personally. I have really, really bad deepstrike luck with crisis suits, never outflank anything that can, and why on earth would you reserve our MCs so they dont come in either.

Heres the thing about pathfinders. Yes, putting them in cover increases their survivability. Not by much though. They are still wounded VERY reliably and are valuable enough due to ML spam threats to expend high value weapons on them (autocannons, heavy bolters, or any other higher rate of fire gun that WILL be able to reach them). Literally everything wounds on a 2+ except Bolters that will ever hit them. When you are rolling ~8 wounds per unit firing at you, a 4+ cover means nothing youre going to lose on average half the unit then take a leadership test if not worse.

Why do you think rate of fire reliably kills terminators? So what if they have a 2+ armor, if i cause a crapload of wounds theyre going down anyway. Pathfinders are so squishy that literally anything can put enough wounds on them to force those failed saves. The only thing we can do to increase their survivability is either LoS, which doesnt really help because now they cant shoot, or an Ethereal granting 6+ FNP assuming it wasnt a S6+ gun hitting them (and it usually is turn 1/2).

If we could give them Stealth somehow, i'd be all for it. Considering theyre a scout unit for the Tau Empire, im surprised they dont have some kind of cover bonus (even a specific terrain type).

If a S6 gun shoots on them, you are already winning.

Although they have scouts, they are not front field units. 36 is back enough so that you need heavy guns to hit them. A heavy gun aiming at them is not aiming at your battlesuit and tanks.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If a S6 gun shoots on them, you are already winning.

Although they have scouts, they are not front field units. 36 is back enough so that you need heavy guns to hit them. A heavy gun aiming at them is not aiming at your battlesuit and tanks.

Tell that to my destroyer missile.. which now cannot aim all that well, due to the lack of available makerlights. Damn you Str 6!!

Pathfinders are good. Drones, in a lot of contexts, are better. The ability to have mobile markerlights is just to dang powerful. Now they can JJSJ and make use of combined fire!

Static markerlights, I've found, are often out manoeuvred or are gunned down. 36" isn't a huge distance when you consider available terrain, deployment distances, first turn + typical weapon ranges.

Drones indeed are better in alot of contexts, but not in all of them.

In a castle type list, I'd rather have pathfinders.
Or when budget is pressing, as they are much more efficient in the mark-per-point department.

commander dante wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Technically that is correct however nothing says it has to be a buffmander. The buffmander part only makes them reroll, but theyre BS5 because of ANY commander + Drone controller

But with the hunter contingent you are really limited to 1 commander unless you take 1 of 2 cadre that are point expensive

YOU ARE USING A HUNTER CONTINGENT
Buffmander is the best asset for you when you are using combined firepower
E.G
Declare you are using Combined Firepower with Buffmander and other units
Use the C&C Node and (i forgot its name) to give everything Ignores Cover AND Twin-Linked
Then use the P.E.N to give everything Monster hunter,Tank hunter ect...

Better to split up for multiple targets and combine the buffs were needed. Like say a Monat with DC to the drones for bs4 ML, PEN and MSS on the broadside unit doing AA, Gang up FWs on that TTSS squad to drown it in saves, etc, that way you are getting the most use of everything in one turn.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Technically that is correct however nothing says it has to be a buffmander. The buffmander part only makes them reroll, but theyre BS5 because of ANY commander + Drone controller

But with the hunter contingent you are really limited to 1 commander unless you take 1 of 2 cadre that are point expensive

You could also take a Commander from the 'Contingent Headquarters' option at the cost of a Bodyguard squad. If you're planning to take an Ethereal you have to take a second Commander anyway.
You also get a Commander if you take the Retaliation Cadre, which from what I've seen is something many people will be taking anyway.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Technically that is correct however nothing says it has to be a buffmander. The buffmander part only makes them reroll, but theyre BS5 because of ANY commander + Drone controller

But with the hunter contingent you are really limited to 1 commander unless you take 1 of 2 cadre that are point expensive

You could also take a Commander from the 'Contingent Headquarters' option at the cost of a Bodyguard squad. If you're planning to take an Ethereal you have to take a second Commander anyway.
You also get a Commander if you take the Retaliation Cadre, which from what I've seen is something many people will be taking anyway.

I think most people will take the Optimised Stealth Cadre.