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Thunderous Assault: Models from this Formation that make Hammer of Wrath attacks make two hits instead of one if there are at least five models in their unit.

Moondrakkan: Moondrakken is a Space Marine bike that makes D3 Hammer of wrath attacks instead of 1.

What happens? The wording in Thunderous assault is referencing Hits and not Attacks which leads me to my confusion and this post. I think I would be able to roll the D3 twice add them up for the number of attacks.

My opinion we have two routes;

1. Khan gets 2D3 addition attacks due to Hitting twice with hammer of wrath.
2. Khan Gets 1D3 + The additional attack from Thunderous assault.

Please let me know what Dakka thinks. As always thanks for any help!

HIWPI: D3 HoW minimum 2 (so 1-4 is 2 HoW, 5-6 is 3 HoW).

However, it could be read that he gets D3 HoW, and each one causes 2 hits (D3*2).

1. 2D3 would be D3+D3 giving you a result of 2-6.
2. D3+1 would net you 2-4.

You can't get both. Both rules are done instead of a single HoW. When you use one rule of our don't have a single HoW to replace for the second rule

A similar situation came up before. Back in 5th edition IG, you could upgrade the Rough Rider Sgt to Mogul Kamir. Kamir had Rage and D3 attacks on the charge (instead of 1). Come 6th edition, Rage was changed to +2 attacks on the charge (instead of 1). GW FAQ'd this to he has D3 attacks on the charge with a minimum of 2.

D3 to a minimum of 2 seems most RaW as both trigger instead of 1. So if you trigger the 2 hits rule first the d3 doesn't trigger. Ifyou trigger the d3 one first and roll a 1 the 2 hits triggers. Players turn gets to choose the order so d3 minimum 2 or should you choose just a flat 2 hits.

Though I can see the reasoning behind the d3 x 2 method as one rule triggers on hits and the other on attacks.

I don't see how either of the 2 options given in the OP could possibly be true.

RAW it seems clear that the player has to choose between one or the other since the player cannot pay the "instead of one" more than once.

So the player can take the D3 statistical average and get 2 hits for sure by not rolling the D3 or he can push his luck and roll the D3 and go for 3 (but risk getting stuck with 1).

2D3.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
2D3.

How are you and OP getting "2D3" Hammer of Wrath attacks?

col_impact wrote:
RAW it seems clear that the player has to choose between one or the other since the player cannot pay the "instead of one" more than once.

So the player can take the D3 statistical average and get 2 hits for sure by not rolling the D3 or he can push his luck and roll the D3 and go for 3 (but risk getting stuck with 1).

If he rolls 1why would the 2 hits instead of 1 hit rule not trigger?

kewlgui wrote:

Thunderous Assault: Models from this Formation that make Hammer of Wrath attacks make two hits instead of one if there are at least five models in their unit.

Moondrakkan: Moondrakken is a Space Marine bike that makes D3 Hammer of wrath attacks instead of 1.

What we have is two rules, one effecting the number of attacks the other effecting the number of hits those attacks create. Thunderous assault doesnt change the fact that 5 bikers make 5 HoW attacks, it changes the number of hits those attacks generate, ie 10 not 5.

normally, HoW is a single attack which generates 1 single automatic hit.
in this case though;

HoW is D3 attacks (per Moondrakken) generating 2 hits each (per Thunderous assault).
so D3 attacks, generating D3 x2 hits? (so possibly 2,4 or 6 hits)

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:
RAW it seems clear that the player has to choose between one or the other since the player cannot pay the "instead of one" more than once.

So the player can take the D3 statistical average and get 2 hits for sure by not rolling the D3 or he can push his luck and roll the D3 and go for 3 (but risk getting stuck with 1).

If he rolls 1why would the 2 hits instead of 1 hit rule not trigger?

The player chooses to take 2 or to take D3 "instead of one".

If he rolls a 1 he cannot again choose 2 or another D3 "instead of one", the choice of which rule to apply has already been made.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:
RAW it seems clear that the player has to choose between one or the other since the player cannot pay the "instead of one" more than once.

So the player can take the D3 statistical average and get 2 hits for sure by not rolling the D3 or he can push his luck and roll the D3 and go for 3 (but risk getting stuck with 1).

If he rolls 1why would the 2 hits instead of 1 hit rule not trigger?

The player chooses to take 2 or to take D3 "instead of one".

If he rolls a 1 he cannot again choose 2 or another D3 "instead of one", the choice of which rule to apply has already been made.

Where does it say players get to choose what rules to use and what to ignore?

Both rules apply and the player who's turn it is chooses the order they are resolved.

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:
RAW it seems clear that the player has to choose between one or the other since the player cannot pay the "instead of one" more than once.

So the player can take the D3 statistical average and get 2 hits for sure by not rolling the D3 or he can push his luck and roll the D3 and go for 3 (but risk getting stuck with 1).

If he rolls 1why would the 2 hits instead of 1 hit rule not trigger?

The player chooses to take 2 or to take D3 "instead of one".

If he rolls a 1 he cannot again choose 2 or another D3 "instead of one", the choice of which rule to apply has already been made.

Where does it say players get to choose what rules to use and what to ignore?

Both rules apply and the player who's turn it is chooses the order they are resolved.

So the Moondrakkan rule all by itself allows me to keep re-rolling the D3 until I get a result that is not 1?

Nope you only get to apply the rule once. Unless you have permission to reapply it?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope you only get to apply the rule once. Unless you have permission to reapply it?

Where does it say the rule only gets to be applied once?

Where does it give you permission to do it more than once?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Where does it give you permission to do it more than once?

The rule all by itself is logically applicable to any state where you have 1 HOW attack.

You have to show how it is restricted to only one application.

So if you think d3 is the same as d3 minimum of 2 then that's your call. The rule triggers when you make a HoW attack nothing there states you can retrigger the rule multiple times.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So if you think d3 is the same as d3 minimum of 2 then that's your call. The rule triggers when you make a HoW attack nothing there states you can retrigger the rule multiple times.

So if the Thunderous Assault rule triggers "when you make a HOW attack" what makes you think it triggers again after you roll the d3 for Moondrakkan?

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So if you think d3 is the same as d3 minimum of 2 then that's your call. The rule triggers when you make a HoW attack nothing there states you can retrigger the rule multiple times.

So if the Thunderous Assault rule triggers "when you make a HOW attack" what makes you think it triggers again after you roll the d3 for Moondrakkan?

Because both rules trigger at the same time, so the player gets to choose the order. If he chooses the d3 and rolls a 1 the 2 hits can still trigger. If he chooses the 2 the d3 can't.

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So if you think d3 is the same as d3 minimum of 2 then that's your call. The rule triggers when you make a HoW attack nothing there states you can retrigger the rule multiple times.

So if the Thunderous Assault rule triggers "when you make a HOW attack" what makes you think it triggers again after you roll the d3 for Moondrakkan?

Because both rules trigger at the same time, so the player gets to choose the order. If he chooses the d3 and rolls a 1 the 2 hits can still trigger. If he chooses the 2 the d3 can't.

If Thunderous Assault can still trigger after the D3 then Moondrakkan can still trigger after the D3.

Nope Moondraken only triggers once as does thunderous assault. The player who's turn it is chooses the order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to show permission for Moondraken to trigger more than once.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope Moondraken only triggers once as does thunderous assault. The player who's turn it is chooses the order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to show permission for Moondraken to trigger more than once.

The trigger is exhausted after you choose 2 or the D3.

After the D3 is rolled you no longer have a HOW attack to expend but a Moondrakkan D3 result.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope Moondraken only triggers once as does thunderous assault. The player who's turn it is chooses the order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to show permission for Moondraken to trigger more than once.

The trigger is exhausted after you choose 2 or the D3.

After the D3 is rolled you no longer have a HOW attack to expend but a Moondrakkan D3 result.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

You can't choose to ignore rules. You make a HoW, moondraken doesn't stop your attack from being a HoW attack. So you have 2 rules triggered at the same time yes? So you choose the order to resolve.

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope Moondraken only triggers once as does thunderous assault. The player who's turn it is chooses the order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to show permission for Moondraken to trigger more than once.

The trigger is exhausted after you choose 2 or the D3.

After the D3 is rolled you no longer have a HOW attack to expend but a Moondrakkan D3 result.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

You can't choose to ignore rules. You make a HoW, moondraken doesn't stop your attack from being a HoW attack. So you have 2 rules triggered at the same time yes? So you choose the order to resolve.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope Moondraken only triggers once as does thunderous assault. The player who's turn it is chooses the order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to show permission for Moondraken to trigger more than once.

The trigger is exhausted after you choose 2 or the D3.

After the D3 is rolled you no longer have a HOW attack to expend but a Moondrakkan D3 result.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

You can't choose to ignore rules. You make a HoW, moondraken doesn't stop your attack from being a HoW attack. So you have 2 rules triggered at the same time yes? So you choose the order to resolve.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

Cool so please quote the rule that allows Moondraken to trigger more than once? Or show the rule that allows you to ignore Thunderous Assault?

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope Moondraken only triggers once as does thunderous assault. The player who's turn it is chooses the order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to show permission for Moondraken to trigger more than once.

The trigger is exhausted after you choose 2 or the D3.

After the D3 is rolled you no longer have a HOW attack to expend but a Moondrakkan D3 result.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

You can't choose to ignore rules. You make a HoW, moondraken doesn't stop your attack from being a HoW attack. So you have 2 rules triggered at the same time yes? So you choose the order to resolve.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

Cool so please quote the rule that allows Moondraken to trigger more than once? Or show the rule that allows you to ignore Thunderous Assault?

If the conditions are met for Thunderous Assault to be applied after the D3 then the conditions are met for Moondraken to be applied after the D3. Neither of those rules say "once" so if the conditions are met for either of them to be logically applied then they can be applied.

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope Moondraken only triggers once as does thunderous assault. The player who's turn it is chooses the order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to show permission for Moondraken to trigger more than once.

The trigger is exhausted after you choose 2 or the D3.

After the D3 is rolled you no longer have a HOW attack to expend but a Moondrakkan D3 result.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

You can't choose to ignore rules. You make a HoW, moondraken doesn't stop your attack from being a HoW attack. So you have 2 rules triggered at the same time yes? So you choose the order to resolve.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

Cool so please quote the rule that allows Moondraken to trigger more than once? Or show the rule that allows you to ignore Thunderous Assault?

If the conditions are met for Thunderous Assault to be applied after the D3 then the conditions are met for Moondraken to be applied after the D3. Neither of those rules say "once" so if the conditions are met for either of them to be logically applied then they can be applied.

So what gives you permission to benefit from the special rules of Moondrakken more than once?

 Happyjew wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nope Moondraken only triggers once as does thunderous assault. The player who's turn it is chooses the order.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to show permission for Moondraken to trigger more than once.

The trigger is exhausted after you choose 2 or the D3.

After the D3 is rolled you no longer have a HOW attack to expend but a Moondrakkan D3 result.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

You can't choose to ignore rules. You make a HoW, moondraken doesn't stop your attack from being a HoW attack. So you have 2 rules triggered at the same time yes? So you choose the order to resolve.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

Cool so please quote the rule that allows Moondraken to trigger more than once? Or show the rule that allows you to ignore Thunderous Assault?

If the conditions are met for Thunderous Assault to be applied after the D3 then the conditions are met for Moondraken to be applied after the D3. Neither of those rules say "once" so if the conditions are met for either of them to be logically applied then they can be applied.

So what gives you permission to benefit from the special rules of Moondrakken more than once?

The trigger is exhausted after you choose 2 or the D3.

After the D3 is rolled you no longer have a HOW attack to expend but a Moondrakkan D3 result.

If the rule is triggered for Thunderous Assault after the D3 then it is triggered for Moondrakkan.

So what S and AP are these Moondraken attacks made at and do I get an additional pile in? After all it is not a HoW according to you.