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Whelp, if ever there was a thread dedicated entirely to flamebait, it's this one.

>40k book gets writing
>Gonna have these two in a fight
>Who wins?

Do you mean a personal fight ? Abby versus Calgar in close combat, or as commander ?

Calgar is the better commander, but Abbadon has the Talon of Horus, and is a Vet of the Long War.
I imagine Abbadon would win the personal battle.

Either and both. I know Abby is a terrible strategist (he's called failbaddon for a reason), but he's able to rally together unprecedented forces to do it for him.o

Hmm...well I'm going to disregard crunch and try to make the judgement based solely on fluff.

I guess I'd probably favour Abaddon overall since, hollow as it often rings, he's technically consistently described as being 'super-duper-evil-dangerous' in fluff. Its tough to swallow, for sure, cause of the lack of incredibly impressive feats to his name, but it combined with his considerable age means I'll, in theory, overall favour Abaddon.

In Combat I'd definitely give it to Abaddon. In Commanding...from what we've seen it has to be Calgar, I suppose, if only since I can't think of many incidents where Abaddon showed incredibly strategic acumen or tactical insight. I suppose his intellect we can reason is impressive since he tricked a Lord of Change using Time Travel, but I can't recall many moments where his brilliance was stressed. Unlike Marneus who's brilliance is perhaps, at times, overstressed.

On a side note, to what Selym says above about how Abaddon rallies unprecedented forces, yeah that sort of always bugged me. Abadddon, at least in everything I've read of him, really doesn't display much in the way of Charisma and yet seems to have a never ending supply of forces willing to die for him. I'd really have preferred if rather than being incredibly, trivially mean to his own men (like that time he just made his leadership circle fight to the death) they'd constructed him as still having some sort of personal loyalty and relation to them. But that's me, perhaps there's a novel out there which explains it better which I haven't read. Either way I agree he's definitely good at rallying unprecedented forces.

 Anemone wrote:


On a side note, to what Selym says above about how Abaddon rallies unprecedented forces, yeah that sort of always bugged me. Abadddon, at least in everything I've read of him, really doesn't display much in the way of Charisma and yet seems to have a never ending supply of forces willing to die for him. I'd really have preferred if rather than being incredibly, trivially mean to his own men (like that time he just made his leadership circle fight to the death) they'd constructed him as still having some sort of personal loyalty and relation to them. But that's me, perhaps there's a novel out there which explains it better which I haven't read. Either way I agree he's definitely good at rallying unprecedented forces.

On this I think most books even mentioning him usually cover it pretty well, He gained a tonne of power and pull after the heresy and has since then set himself up so that almost any given chaos or renegade warbands owe him a favour or two, either from the old days or from giving them assistance in some way. He could be compared to a mob boss rather than an actual charismatic leader.

 Anemone wrote:
Hmm...well I'm going to disregard crunch and try to make the judgement based solely on fluff.

I guess I'd probably favour Abaddon overall since, hollow as it often rings, he's technically consistently described as being 'super-duper-evil-dangerous' in fluff. Its tough to swallow, for sure, cause of the lack of incredibly impressive feats to his name, but it combined with his considerable age means I'll, in theory, overall favour Abaddon.

In Combat I'd definitely give it to Abaddon. In Commanding...from what we've seen it has to be Calgar, I suppose, if only since I can't think of many incidents where Abaddon showed incredibly strategic acumen or tactical insight. I suppose his intellect we can reason is impressive since he tricked a Lord of Change using Time Travel, but I can't recall many moments where his brilliance was stressed. Unlike Marneus who's brilliance is perhaps, at times, overstressed.

On a side note, to what Selym says above about how Abaddon rallies unprecedented forces, yeah that sort of always bugged me. Abadddon, at least in everything I've read of him, really doesn't display much in the way of Charisma and yet seems to have a never ending supply of forces willing to die for him. I'd really have preferred if rather than being incredibly, trivially mean to his own men (like that time he just made his leadership circle fight to the death) they'd constructed him as still having some sort of personal loyalty and relation to them. But that's me, perhaps there's a novel out there which explains it better which I haven't read. Either way I agree he's definitely good at rallying unprecedented forces.

It is best to be loved and feared, but if you are Abaddon it is sufficient to be feared.

With Planet Killer and his half-hearted collection of Blackstone Fortresses (Abaddon is the ultimate hobby butterfly) does Abaddon also have a fleet advantage?

Calgar's biggest advantage seems to be logistical, but being an Ultramarine chapter master, this is one he can really exploit to the extreme.

Abaddon's biggest disadvantage seems to be being trapped in the Eye, so requiring obscure/circumstantial routes/rituals or sheer brute force to break through and accomplish any of his goals).

A guy called "The Armless" shouldn't be in close combat. And ofc, Chaos isn't allowed to have nice stuff so Failbaddon can never win.

Well Abaddon is the warmaster and chosen of the four gods...

But

You did just pit him against Marneus Augustus Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "Alone against the green tide" Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "Peasants kill Night Lords if I say so" Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "Pick up a pylon so I can shoot Necrons better" Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "Punch clean through the Avatar" Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "Beat the Swarmlord to death with his bare hands" Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "Turn An'ggrath the Unbound's skull to paste" Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "Greatest of the greatest of them all" Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "Overshadows all others" Calgar
aka Marneus Augustus "God of War" Calgar
aka Big MAC
aka MAC truck
aka Big Papa Smurf.

That's what I said, and then GW was all like "but nooo, he's the big scary bad guy".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do we have any direct fluff of Abaddon in combat? Or is it all just "yeah, but he took this big space thingy, with his horde of 50 million spess mehreens and daemons"?

 Selym wrote:
That's what I said, and then GW was all like "but nooo, he's the big scary bad guy".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do we have any direct fluff of Abaddon in combat? Or is it all just "yeah, but he took this big space thingy, with his horde of 50 million spess mehreens and daemons"?

He has attacked and destroyed a few cities pretty much on his own. We see him fight in the heresy, and he stuns people by how quick he moves in his terminator armour.

 Selym wrote:
That's what I said, and then GW was all like "but nooo, he's the big scary bad guy".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do we have any direct fluff of Abaddon in combat? Or is it all just "yeah, but he took this big space thingy, with his horde of 50 million spess mehreens and daemons"?

I think his most detailed personal combat in the post Heresey era is in beating up an oversized gate.

Or at least that is the one that gets a lot of attention in the codex (past and previous). I believe he also beat up some Horus clones. It seems generally he surrounds himself with a bodyguard of his most untrustworthy followers, gets them all killed and then wins an objective that the imperium didn't even realise he was pursuing.

I'd love to see something more elaborate. How is Talon of Horus? I've not read that one yet.

I think others are better suited to decide who would win as a commander or as a tactician. Still...

I HOPE Calgar wins. I find Abbadon to be irritating in the extreme. A guy that should be sly and clever and manipulative and tough as nails comes across as a demi-mystic chaos fanboy. Yeeeesh.

I'm not sure Abbadon deserves the bad rap he gets as a tactician or strategist, though. He is the perennial loser because the bad guys and monsters HAVE to lose.

Consider the business implications for GW. If Abbadon wins outright the Imperium is wrecked, which would change the 40k dynamic substantially. The Imperium fans (bulk of the consumer base) feel screwed over and stop spending money on a company that doesn't love their faction(s). We can't have that, can we?

My two rather cynical cents worth.

Abaddon would utterly crush Calgar in a fight considering Abaddon bested multiple Primarchs.

You know calgar determines what will hurt him, right? Calgar is the Chuck Norris joke of the 41st Millenium.

Abigal the Armless Abbadon the Despoiler failed a grand total of 13 times.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Abaddon would utterly crush Calgar in a fight considering Abaddon bested multiple Primarchs.

Don't sell Calgar too short.
He did one-two an Avatar, dismantle the Swarmlord with his bare hands, and crush An'ggrath's head.
He's also said to be the greatest warrior of the Imperium, which would put him past Draigo, who managed to defeat a primarch in a single blow.

Draigo fought a wounded daemon primarch and took off his last 3 HP with a lucky critical :p

Which Primarchs did Abaddon beat up?

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Abaddon would utterly crush Calgar in a fight considering Abaddon bested multiple Primarchs.

Don't sell Calgar too short.
He did one-two an Avatar, dismantle the Swarmlord with his bare hands, and crush An'ggrath's head.
He's also said to be the greatest warrior of the Imperium, which would put him past Draigo, who managed to defeat a primarch in a single blow.

Everybody kills Avatars and he killed the Swamlord in an ambush.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Draigo fought a wounded daemon primarch and took off his last 3 HP with a lucky critical :p

Which Primarchs did Abaddon beat up?

Abaddon slaughtered a clone of Horus and forced the Daemon Primarchs to kneel before him and accept his overlordship as the new Warmaster of Chaos. Which means he definitely clashed with Angron and Magnus, as neither of them would have ever submitted to a lowly Chaos Champion. Also Abaddon carries a daemon sword that will one-shot anybody save possibly a perpetual, so Calgar can't even afford to take a single strike.

As much as I would love to believe that Calgar could pimp slap Abaddon into next week (as an Ultramarines player). Abaddon would probably murder Calgar

Marbo, emerging from a wall of mud. If anyone is the Chuck Norris joke of M41 it's Marbo.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Everybody kills Avatars and he killed the Swamlord in an ambush.

Everyone?
There's Fulgrim, a primarch, and he had quite a tough time with it.
There's the Sanguinior, who's pretty mysterious.
And besides Calgar that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Anyway, it's all pretty big league company.

As for the Swarmlord he killed it in single combat with is bare hands.
And of course, most impressively of all, he pulped the skull of Khorne's Most Favoured, An'ggrath.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Abaddon would utterly crush Calgar in a fight considering Abaddon bested multiple Primarchs.

Don't sell Calgar too short.
He did one-two an Avatar, dismantle the Swarmlord with his bare hands, and crush An'ggrath's head.
He's also said to be the greatest warrior of the Imperium, which would put him past Draigo, who managed to defeat a primarch in a single blow.

Everybody kills Avatars and he killed the Swamlord in an ambush.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Draigo fought a wounded daemon primarch and took off his last 3 HP with a lucky critical :p

Which Primarchs did Abaddon beat up?

Abaddon slaughtered a clone of Horus and forced the Daemon Primarchs to kneel before him and accept his overlordship as the new Warmaster of Chaos. Which means he definitely clashed with Angron and Magnus, as neither of them would have ever submitted to a lowly Chaos Champion. Also Abaddon carries a daemon sword that will one-shot anybody save possibly a perpetual, so Calgar can't even afford to take a single strike.

Although I agree that Abbadon would whoop Calgar's ass 1 on 1, he didn't actually force the Daemon Primarchs to kneel, most of it was gaining their allegiances via bargaining or proving himself. He gave an unblemished psyker (implied to be a Grey Knight in the Pandorax Campaign) to Fulgrim, the Hand of Darkness to Mortarion, had to duel in the gladiatorial arenas for Angron and it was really only Perturabo and Lorgar that seemed to help him without needing anything in return. In fact, in the case of Magnus, he was outright refused an audience with him and he had to resort to dealing with Ahriman to get the Thousands Sons to his side. So if anything it just shows his determination and iron will needed to band together disparate and selfish forces like Chaos Marines together, whereas Calgar, although tactically/logistically shrewd, does not have that issue of having to reassert his authority in such a way.

But yeah, the boons of chaos and his actual artefacts that he carries all but allows him to overwhelm Calgar.

Animus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Everybody kills Avatars and he killed the Swamlord in an ambush.

Everyone?
There's Fulgrim, a primarch, and he had quite a tough time with it.
There's the Sanguinior, who's pretty mysterious.
And besides Calgar that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
Anyway, it's all pretty big league company.

As for the Swarmlord he killed it in single combat with is bare hands.
And of course, most impressively of all, he pulped the skull of Khorne's Most Favoured, An'ggrath.

First off, there's no such thing as Khorne's "most favoured" since I can think of several daemons who have all been listed as such. Second, when did Calgar beat An'ggrath?

 Orblivion wrote:
First off, there's no such thing as Khorne's "most favoured"

Well it is one of his titles in any case.

 Orblivion wrote:
Second, when did Calgar beat An'ggrath?

Blood Oath.

Animus wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
First off, there's no such thing as Khorne's "most favoured"

Well it is one of his titles in any case.

 Orblivion wrote:
Second, when did Calgar beat An'ggrath?

Blood Oath.

I think Khorne is trolling his own daemons, because it seems like he gives them all slight variations of "world's greatest dad" t-shirts.

Also, thanks for the reference. I'll have to look up Blood Oath.

Combat wise i'd probably give it to Abby. The Horus Herasy makes it clear that he is a force to be reckoned with and that's before he had the Talon and his demon blade. Command wise though.... Calgar is a bit of a marry sue sometimes but the toned down version of him comes of as a God of war, a true battlefield general. Abbadon on the other hand is complicated on that note. The old fluff had each crusade being an attempt to over run cadia and head to Terra. Very recent retcons now have it all as part of some grand plan that is coming to fruition with the 13th crusade, which itself has been retconned many times both ways. This leads to the idea that he's a failure who needed creator intervention to make badass. That rarely goes down well.

Calgar has daemonic power fists that defy reality. With integrated bolters which means he outguns Abby by a metric feth-ton.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Calgar has daemonic power fists that defy reality. With integrated bolters which means he outguns Abby by a metric feth-ton.

Talon of Horus has an integrated Storm Bolter.

Edit: ninja'd by a much better reply than what I posted! As such, I've changed this post to reply to something else in the thread.

 Orblivion wrote:

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Calgar has daemonic power fists that defy reality. With integrated bolters which means he outguns Abby by a metric feth-ton.

Talon of Horus has an integrated Storm Bolter.

Makes no fluff sense considering CSM don't have Storm Bolters, and even then, is it S6 AP3 Assault 2 at BS5? Genuine question as I've shifted my CSM for my Legiones.