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The Tidewall is moving terrain, and the (Forge World) Drone Sentry Turret is an immobile vehicle. The Tidewall itself provides no limitations on what can go on it, (other than what can fit), but the DST has a rule that says it cannot move under any circumstances, and must even take damage should another rule force it to make a move.

Is it possible to plop one of these lovely sculpted models (You still sell the missile variant) on one of the Tidewall's rings? Current RAW is a little foggy. On the one hand, the DST can't move. On the other, units on the Tidewall are considered stationary (caveat, considered stationary for shooting). The Turret would not be performing a move action or moving under it's own power. It likewise would be remaining stationary in relation to the terrain it was placed on.

There's no rule preventing the drone from being deployed on the tidewall that I can see, and no rule preventing the tidewall from moving because of an immobile model on it.

RELEVANT TIDEWALL RULE (All parts and formations have this rule)

Mobile Defence Position:If you take a Tidewall XYZ as part of your army, you may move it up to 6" in the Movement phase. It cannot move if there are any enemy models on it, and may only carry friendly models if all members of their unit are on the Tidewall XYZ. Models carried with it are treated as being stationary for the purposes of firing weapons, but cannot move themselves in the same phase. Tidewall XYZs can only move over open ground, and cannot move within 1" of enemy models.

So, the question is: Can a model that is immobilized, or anchored (such as a Storm Surge), or any model that CANNOT MOVE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ride a piece of mobile terrain? They are not making a move action, nor are they being forced to take a move action. They are traveling along the board, but only because the terrain itself is moving. If not, is the entire Tidewall formation immobilized, or can these models just not even be deployed on it?

Just for poops and chuckles. here's an image of one of the small, Fire Warrior drone turrets riding on a Tidewall

This image is from the Kauyon campaign book. It should be illegal because A) It's not allowed to move. It can only be deployed, then it waits for you to leave it and it gets re-deployed the next time you remain still. B) It needs to be deployed on open ground, which technically the Tidewall isn't.

Models affected by this ruling off the top of my head:
Forge World's Drone Sentry Turret
Forge World's Sensor Grid models
DS8 Tactical Support Turret (new option for Fire Warriors)
Possible the Stormsurge, even though it doesn't really fit on a Tidewall.
Maybe an immobilized piranha or some other vehicle.

This is covered explicitly in the model's rules.

Dakka is not a resource of rules.

I've got all of these rules. Hell, I have provided half of these rules to the Dakka community at one point or another. I'm not asking you to read the rules to me. I'm asking for an interpretation of rules for which there has been some debate about at my local shop. I'm asking because this has come up in games I've watched.

I have had cases where people say it is legal to have models that cannot move on moving terrain, no problem at all. The models aren't moving, the terrain is and the models are just going with it. Remaining stationary on terrain that moves is not like being forced to move because of Tank Shock. The Tidewall rules themselves even say that the models on them cannot move, so of course remaining stationary on moving terrain isn't a form of self-movement.

I have had cases where people say it is NOT legal, because the models cannot move, under any circumstances. Because the terrain is moving, the models are moving, which is illegal because it's a form of circumstance. The remaining stationary bit is more like a form of relentless, and only applies to shooting. Models on moving Tidewalls count as moving in every other sense.

Like every GW rule ever, even if your interpretation of this rule is that it is TOTES CLEAR HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY LOOK AT IT ANY OTHER WAY, there are those who read it a different way and wonder how on Earth you could be so dense as to read it opposite of the way they do.

Not-answering the question like that, not participating in a YMDC by saying, "Duh, read da rule book," is kind of completely asinine, patronizing, and narrow minded. If this is covered explicitly, please do elaborate. Thank you.

I don't think this is going to get covered by actual rules - the number of models that cannot move under their own power are tiny, and likely didn't occur to the rules-writers.

The "counts as stationary" combined with the "cannot move themselves in the same phase" in my eyes shows that they have moved even if it wasn't under their own power. The turrets (both the Forgeworld ones and the tiny Firewarrior one) should be moved along with it, because logically they would be, and it's not "forcing them" to move themselves (a bit like a model in a transport vehicle that has moved counts as moving for shooting) so I don't think it would trigger the Forgeworld turret damage-taking (though I don't have that rule to be sure).

I think the main objections are going to be from people who think you'll be abusing it with a Stormsurge as a giant hoverboard to get around the restriction on the anchors.

The models on the Tidewall, only count as stationary for firing weapons. Anything else, they count as having moved.

 Happyjew wrote:
The models on the Tidewall, only count as stationary for firing weapons. Anything else, they count as having moved.

Which would break the rules for anything that is not allowed to move.

So as far as I can see, deploying a stationary model on the Tidewall would be fine. But the moment you try to move the Tidewall, you are breaking the rules for the stationary model.

Guess it will come down to if you believe moving the Tidewall Rampart forces the occupying Models to also Move.

Quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to be had even though the Authors did not state the Models are also Moving, though it is problematic that it goes both ways. A note that the occupying Models count as having remained stationary during the Shooting Phase can only be needed if they had Moved during the Movement Phase. A clause stating the occupying Models can not move during the phase would only be required if the Models have not Moved. Alas, if only we had a sentence telling us outright that Models occupying the Tidewall Ramparts count this Movement towards their own....

I am away from my book, but the Opening Poster mentioned that the Drone Sentry Turret has a specific clause to what happens if the Turret is forced to move?

JinxDragon wrote:
Guess it will come down to if you believe moving the Tidewall Rampart forces the occupying Models to also Move.

Quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to be had even though the Authors did not state the Models are also Moving, though it is problematic that it goes both ways. A note that the occupying Models count as having remained stationary during the Shooting Phase can only be needed if they had Moved during the Movement Phase. A clause stating the occupying Models can not move during the phase would only be required if the Models have not Moved.

I am away from my book, but the Opening Poster mentioned that the Drone Sentry Turret has a specific clause to what happens if the Turret is forced to move?

From FW's downloadable Vehicle update
New Vehicle Type: Immobile Vehicle. An Immobile Vehicle cannot move under any circumstances after deployment. Any special rules which force it to
move will instead cause the vehicle to take a single Glancing hit. If an Immobile Vehicle sustains a Vehicle Immobilised damage result then it loses an
additional Hull Point instead.

From Imperial Armor III 2nd edition (6th ed)
Immobile Vehicle. An Immobile Vehicle cannot move under any circumstances after deployment. Any special rules which force it to
move will instead cause the vehicle to take a single Glancing hit. If an Immobile Vehicle sustains a Vehicle Immobilised damage result then it loses an
additional Hull Point instead. The Automated Repair System (see Codex: Tau Empire, page 72) cannot be used to to restore Hull Points lost when an
Immobile Vehicle sustains a Vehicle Immobilised damage result, nor does a successful repair attempt grant any ability to move to the Immobile Vehicle.

While I'm at it, the Stormsurge's Anchor ability
Stabilising Anchors: In your Shooting phase, in addition to firing normally, a Stormsurge can begin deploying its anchors; from then on the Stormsurge
cannot move under any circumstances or make Stomp attacks. In the Shooting phase of your next turn, and in each subsequent Shooting phase, a
Stormsurge with its anchors deployed can fire twice. Make the second shooting attack directly after the first has been resolved. The Stormsurge can
retract its anchors at the beginning of any of your Movement phases, and can then move, shoot and make Stomp attacks normally.

The DS8 Support Turret:
DS8 TACTICAL SUPPORT TURRET
Tactical support turrets are not set up when their unit deploys or arrives from Reserve. Instead, if the unit remains stationary in its Movement phase, you can set up the tactical support turret on an area of open ground, within 2" of a model from its unit, and more than 2" away from any enemy models. Once set up, the turret cannot move.
A tactical support turret has a Ballistic Skill of 3. It can fire in the Shooting phase or as part of an Overwatch attack when the rest of the models in its unit shoot, and must target the same enemy unit as the rest of its unit. It can fire on the turn it is set up.
Enemy models cannot attack or affect a tactical support turret in any way, but it is immediately removed as a casualty if there are no other models from its unit within 2" of it, or if an enemy model approaches within 2" of it. Should a unit’s tactical support turret ever be removed as a casualty, it can be returned to play in a future Movement phase as described above.

And I suppose the Forge World Sensor Tower Grid is a special case, but also one that I'm curious about. I've got access to some and I sometimes play team games with the Tidewall player.
Battlefield Debris (Drone Tower)
A Drone tower counts as Impassible terrain and provides no cover. During Deployment, each Drone Tower deployed after the first must be placed no more than 6" away from another Drone Tower. It is hit automatically in close combat and has the profile listed above. A Drone Tower may make shooting attacks in the Shooting phase using its own BS score and does not require the presence of friendly models to do so. It's shooting attacks are resolved per the standard rules by the player that deployed them onto the table, and once reduced to zero wounds, a Drone Tower is removed from the board.

Regarding that last one, I don't see any rules preventing the deployment of terrain on top of other terrain, so I will simply assume that a Sensor Tower on a Tidewall is legal.

Cements that it can not move, period.
Makes me wonder though, does it just remain floating midair as far as the Rules are concerned... they never handled 3-dimensions well.

As for deploying on Terrain, there has been a few debates on that topic in the past. While they often start as Terrain being deployed on Terrain, it quickly becomes apparent that Fortifications have as much permission to deploy onto terrain as a normal Model does. The real knot is determining if a normal Model is allowed to be deployed onto Terrain or if it is forced to, by lack of permission, be deployed onto the table-top itself.

Regardless which is more 'Rules as Written' supported, the Rules are wonky so please talk to your opponent.

 insaniak wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
The models on the Tidewall, only count as stationary for firing weapons. Anything else, they count as having moved.

Which would break the rules for anything that is not allowed to move.

So as far as I can see, deploying a stationary model on the Tidewall would be fine. But the moment you try to move the Tidewall, you are breaking the rules for the stationary model.

Agree with you guys.
Other problem with the picture provided by SinisterSamurai is: DS8 turrets can only be deployed in open ground. Defence Lines (what the Tidewall is) is considered difficult terrain, as it's a subsect of Battlefield Debris. So, how can a DS8 be deployed inside it?

There is a reason we do not use pictures for Rule disputes....

In all cases the models have not moved if they are on the tidewall and IT moves.

The very rules of the tidewall are the same as everything else: count as stationary but cannot themselves move.

So if you claim that moving the tidewall is impossible if the various immobile vehicles and turrets are on it(assuming any of them can be deployed on it); then a unit of firewarriors on it would also prevent it from moving via circular cause and effect: the tidewall moves making the firewarriors unable to move making the tidewall unable to move allowing the firewarriors to move which allows the tidewall to move which then comes back to preventing the firewarriors from being able to move starting the cycle again.

Counts as stationary means that the rules do not consider the model as having moved/moving; actual physical location on the table may have changed but the rules say it did not move; and that is what we care about: the rules.

TL;DR: The wall can either move with a model that cannot move, or it can never move with any models.

It really is poorly written, I thought about that same circular pattern and a few other problems.

Most of the problems stem from the fact the Authors have done very little to explain how the unit occupying the Fortification is being 'carried.' This is not surprising as Game Workshop often does this, assuming a single common word is clear enough to explain the delicate Rule Interactions we will experience on the table-top. The Authors simply assumed that this one word would be enough to explain, not just the question of if the Unit on top is being Moved but also any question concerning how this 'potential movement' interacts with already existing Rules concerning Movement....

Has anyone written team@whitedwarf.co.uk or gamefaqs@gwplc.com to ask?

Aside from generating hope they will one day release some Errata to explain it, what would that actually achieve?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
In all cases the models have not moved if they are on the tidewall and IT moves.

How so? Is the model that is on the Tidewall still in the same place it was before after the Tidewall moves?

So if you claim that moving the tidewall is impossible if the various immobile vehicles and turrets are on it(assuming any of them can be deployed on it); then a unit of firewarriors on it would also prevent it from moving via circular cause and effect: the tidewall moves making the firewarriors unable to move making the tidewall unable to move allowing the firewarriors to move which allows the tidewall to move which then comes back to preventing the firewarriors from being able to move starting the cycle again.

More or less, yes.

However, it's fairly clear from the Tidewall's rules that we're supposed to assume that the models on the Tidewall are moved along with it. ie: There is an implied rules that says 'When you move the Tidewall, any friendly models that are on it are moved along with it.'

So not mobile units, that's fine. They're free to move anyway, they just move with the Tidewall in this case.

For immobile units... that's not fine, as they're not allowed to move.

Counts as stationary means that the rules do not consider the model as having moved/moving;

Except the rule in question doesn't say that the models on the tidewall count as stationary. It says that they count as stationary for the purposes of firing weapons.

So they moved. They just count as not having moved for the purposes of resolving their shooting.

this is similar to orks and gitfindas.

counting as stationary for shooting and being stationary are not the same.

end result is models on the tidewall were not stationary.

I got a question about the tidewall and movement. If there is a vehicle on top of the tidewall and it wrecks while on it. Can the tidewall still move with terrain on top of it?

Insaniak: the middle bit is the important bit; if the tidewall itself moves then all units on it become immobile.

So if it only works for mobile units, then it never works for any units.

Changing physical location is not the same as moving. A turret or stabilized stormsurge has not moved; it has not followed any of the rules for movement. If the tidewall moves over dangerous terrain the models on it do not have to test: they are not on dangerous terrain, they are not moving through, into, nor out of dangerous terrain. Models on the moving tidewall are not moving: the terrain is.

The only reason why transported(as in transport vehicle) models "move" when the transport moves is because the transport rules tell us that they do count as moving.

Same goes for deepstrike: it is only because those rules tell us the unit counts as moving that they do so(and in the case of vehicles: they count as cruising even if you deepstrike one so that it is within 6" of your board edge. Or in other words if it had struck-in within the distance of a combat speed move in normal reserves)

Oberron wrote:
I got a question about the tidewall and movement. If there is a vehicle on top of the tidewall and it wrecks while on it. Can the tidewall still move with terrain on top of it?

well, the terrain is ON it, and the tidewall cannot move OVER difficult terrain. So I'd say yes.

"Yo dawg, I heard you like cover saves..."

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Insaniak: the middle bit is the important bit; if the tidewall itself moves then all units on it become immobile.[

So if it only works for mobile units, then it never works for any units.

Yes, hence the assumption I mentioned.

Changing physical location is not the same as moving.

Changing physical location is the very definition of moving.


You're creating a distinction that isn't present in the rules. There is nothing in the rules that suggests that a model that moves without following the movement rules shouldn't be considered to have moved.

The only reason why transported(as in transport vehicle) models "move" when the transport moves is because the transport rules tell us that they do count as moving.

Indeed. But that's a different situation, as the models in the transport aren't actually on the table. So any rules interactions with them can only occur where the rules specifically tell us to do so.

Same goes for deepstrike: it is only because those rules tell us the unit counts as moving that they do so

I disagree. They moved. The rules don't have to tell us that.

Is this guy trying to put like... Stormsurge on his tide wall? That doesn't work.. I'd pack up my models, tell the TO how I stomped your face and you were a bad sport, claim a win, and move on. 0's across the board for even THINKING of attempting such impossible feats and bend the rules for tau scum

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Is this guy trying to put like... Stormsurge on his tide wall? That doesn't work.. I'd pack up my models, tell the TO how I stomped your face and you were a bad sport, claim a win, and move on. 0's across the board for even THINKING of attempting such impossible feats and bend the rules for tau scum

Wouldn't the Stormsurge judt take d3 no-save wounds each time the Tidewall moved? Pretty that's covered in the rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Is this guy trying to put like... Stormsurge on his tide wall? That doesn't work.. I'd pack up my models, tell the TO how I stomped your face and you were a bad sport, claim a win, and move on. 0's across the board for even THINKING of attempting such impossible feats and bend the rules for tau scum

Wouldn't the Stormsurge judt take d3 no-save wounds each time the Tidewall moved? Pretty that's covered in the rules.

SJ

Where are you getting that idea?

Models that can't move yet are displaced by an effect such as Tank Shock are removed from play, yet any effect that removes a model from play will only deal D3 wounds to a Gargantuan Creature. Does the Stormsurge have any specific rules regarding what happens if it is forced to move after it's anchors are deployed?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Models that can't move yet are displaced by an effect such as Tank Shock are removed from play, yet any effect that removes a model from play will only deal D3 wounds to a Gargantuan Creature. Does the Stormsurge have any specific rules regarding what happens if it is forced to move after it's anchors are deployed?

SJ

This I didn't know, but is good to know! Tau players, please move your stormsurge on the tide wall all the time after being anchored! It's useful AND effective! For me!

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Models that can't move yet are displaced by an effect such as Tank Shock are removed from play,

Do you have a reference for this rule?

I think he's referring to the paragraph before 'Units Already Falling Back' in the Tank Shock rules:

"If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position (it makes no difference whether the unit is Falling Back or not), these models must be moved out of the way by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between them and the vehicle whilst maintaining unit coherency and staying on the board. Any models that cannot manage this are crushed and removed from play as casualties with no saves allowed. Crunch!"

But of course, this is only relevant to Tank Shock, and is not a general rule.

Just remove them from play then

This is all resolved with frame of reference.

The Tidewall is moving Terrain and is a moving frame of reference for dealing with movement. Whatever can stand on it can do so without actually moving. The models move in reference to the terrain under their feet which in this case is a moving terrain that is itself moving in relation to the battleground. The models though are not moving in relation to the moving terrain that is under their feet.

If I set up my forces on a battleground table and move the whole table one inch to the left, have the models moved? In game terms, no. All of the model's relative positions are intact.

Same goes for the Tidewall. When the Tidewall moves the models that are riding on it do not move in relation to the models on the Tidewall or the terrain they are standing on (which in this case is the Tidewall). The moving terrain is a frame of reference (think of playing chess while riding in a car that is on a spinning planet orbiting around a sun).

Also, not sure why this is an issue of concern. Is there some killer combo that can be unlocked here?