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 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I see two ways of reading the rule.

1. Generated powers include all powers a Psyker knows, whether by rolling for a power, getting a power from wargear, or knowing a power standard.

2. Generated powers only include the powers you roll for.

My problem with interpretation number 2 (which to me appears to be DeathReaper's interpretation) is that it makes the rule about not including non-discipline powers do absolutely nothing. Additionally it also means that models that come with set powers (such as Broodlords) do not benefit from Psychic Focus, in which case the change to the Powers of the Hive Mind primaris does absolutely nothing as the only model it applies to is Broodlords.

Since I go with interpretation number 1, it means that if you benefit from Chaos Psychic Focus, you cannot benefit from Psychic Focus.

There are a few redundant reminders for rules, why should this be any different?

Because it's not a redundant reminder. It is a rule that (according to you) does absolutely nothing. Or it is a rule that serves a purpose.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, you have quoted a rule and then failed to interpret it correctly.

This is incorrect, as I have shown in previous posts.

Which posts exactly? All you've shown in previous posts is a faulty grasp of English grammar.

Also, nice selective quoting of my post in an attempt to dodge addressing my point. So I repeat very simply: what is the difference between the following 2 statements?

1. If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

2. If all of the psychic powers a Psyker generates are from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

Of course I guess at this point I don't really expect you to address the above as you seem to be deliberately avoiding it so feel free to once again quote every other part of my post and make more unsupported statements. Thanks!

Don't ignore the context.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Don't ignore the context.

Don't ignore grammar.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Don't ignore the context.

Don't ignore grammar.

I have not ignored grammar.

Ignoring the context leads to situations like yours. therefore, with the context, I have shown the correct RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Don't ignore the context.

Don't ignore grammar.

I have not ignored grammar.

Ignoring the context leads to situations like yours. therefore, with the context, I have shown the correct RAW.

Where is this "context" you keep harping on about? I still haven't seen you post any actual rules quotes that would justify interpreting the following 2 statements to mean the same thing:

1. If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

2. If all of the psychic powers a Psyker generates are from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

Note that the words in 1 and 2 are different. That should be your first clue that they mean different things. See, that's one of the funny things about English - different words mean different things.

Also note your entire argument rests on the premise that the rules mean 2. However, the rules actually mean 1. How do I know this? Because the words in 1 are the same words that are written in the rulebook, while the words in 2 are not. I know it might sound crazy, but usually I find that when making a RAW argument it's helpful to use the words printed in the rulebook and not different ones that somebody made up. Thanks!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Note that the words in 1 and 2 are different. That should be your first clue that they mean different things. See, that's one of the funny things about English - different words mean different things.

Actually that great thing about English, as is common with all languages, is that you can use different words and still mean the SAME thing. There isn't a single set of words that is required to achieve a particular meaning, it can be obtained through multiple arrangements.

In fact, when applying GRAMMAR to the sentences you selected:

[ If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from... ]
- If is the conjunction introducing the conditional clause
- Psyker is the subject of the condition
- generates is the verb
- all is the direct object
- of marks the start of the prepositional phrase qualifying what All constitutes

[ If all of the psychic powers a Psyker generates are from... ]
- If is still the conjunction introducing the conditional clause
- all becomes the subject of the clause
- of remains the beginning of the qualifying prepositional phrase
- "are" becomes the new verb -> All are from
- "a psyker generates" becomes a part of the qualifying statement relating to "all"
- the clause has not changed in meaning, only in form

 Arkaine wrote:
[ If all of the psychic powers a Psyker generates are from... ]
- If is still the conjunction introducing the conditional clause
- all becomes the subject of the clause
- of remains the beginning of the qualifying prepositional phrase
- "are" becomes the new verb -> All are from
- "a psyker generates" becomes a part of the qualifying statement relating to "all";
- the clause has not changed in meaning, only in form

You are correct in that "a psyker generates" is a qualifying phrase here. So "all" is limited in scope to only those powers the psyker generates.

 Arkaine wrote:
[ If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from... ]
- If is the conjunction introducing the conditional clause
- Psyker is the subject of the condition
- generates is the verb
- all is the direct object
- of marks the start of the prepositional phrase qualifying what All constitutes

And what is the qualifying phrase that follows? It's "his psychic powers", not "his generated psychic powers". There is no qualifier here - and therein lies the difference.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
And what is the qualifying phrase that follows? It's "his psychic powers", not "his generated psychic powers". There is no qualifier here - and therein lies the difference.

No. As the statement can be broken down into simple form, it can be reconstructed as well without changing its meaning, only simplifying the statement. Take just the core: Psyker generates all. All remains the same as it once was while being unclear what it constitutes (it relates to psychic powers as we know). Yet the verb is still dictating that the Psyker generates whatever "all" is. You are not permitted to isolate the verb in grammar, it literally defines the meaning of the clause. The powers are those generated because the verb itself tells us that the Psyker generates them, all of this being a part of the conditional conjunction clause that begins with If. So BOTH statements refer to generated powers. Your only refuge is taking the ground that generates can mean something else yet your statement in the prior example shows you do not disagree that a difference exists for generated powers. Both statements state identically the same thing due to how grammar works in English. Simply switching 1+2=3 to 2+1=3 is not enough to alter the meaning of the equation in this particular instance.

To put this into simpler terms, there is a hierarchy of importance and inheritance to sentence structure. A prepositional phrase is always deeper and of less prominence than the subject or verb which have the highest priority in any statement, just as conditional and dependent clauses have less priority than independent clauses. You cannot isolate the prepositional phrase independent of the verb because it is dependent on the subject-verb of the clause itself just as the conditional clause would hold NO MEANING AT ALL without its independent counterpart. The prepositional phrase INHERITS the meaning of the verb and its subject so you are forbidden from excluding the word "generates" from the powers being defined.

Arkaine, what is your position on how it should be played?

If you type all of your homework on the school computer, you get an A. I wrote some of it by hand. Do I get an A?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
If you type all of your homework on the school computer, you get an A. I wrote some of it by hand. Do I get an A?

Sentence deconstruction - Requirement: You type all. All = your homework. Type = verb. Explain how you are typing your homework by hand. Permission for A denied.

Likewise, if you typed it on your HOME computer, you still are denied the A as "on the computer" is a separate prepositional phrase applying to the same verb "type". So technically, the simple sentence is actually "You type all on" with on being defined as the school computer and all being defined as your homework. Both interact with the verb, unlike your example of "his psychic powers" which attempted to segregate the verb entirely and effectively changed the meaning of the sentence when you did so.

Disclaimer: This presumes the sole method of obtaining an A is the listed requirement. If any other possible methods of obtaining an A exist (such as writing an excellent report by hand), then you're given specific permission using those other rules to obtain it.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
If you type all of your homework on the school computer, you get an A. I wrote some of it by hand. Do I get an A?

Sentence deconstruction - Requirement: You type all. All = your homework. Type = verb. Explain how you are typing your homework by hand. Permission for A denied.

If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

Sentence deconstruction - Requirement: Psyker generates all. All = his psychic powers. Generates = verb. Explain how the Herald of Tzeentch generates Flickering Fire. Permission for Psychic Focus denied.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Sentence deconstruction - Requirement: Psyker generates all. All = his psychic powers. Generates = verb. Explain how the Herald of Tzeentch generates Flickering Fire. Permission for Psychic Focus denied.

Correct Sentence Deconstruction - Requirement: Pysker generates all from. All = his psychic powers. Generates = verb. From = the same discipline. Flickering Fire is not one of the powers a psyker generates and is exempt from being examined by the rule. Permission for Psychic Focus granted.

As it is obtained outside the existing establishment of requirements, it is like getting an A despite hand writing your report, which I stated above was valid. The rules for the Tzeentch Herald grant Flickering Fire without generating it. The requirement for Psychic Focus require that the Psyker generates powers from a single discipline, not that all powers he has are from the same one. As with the handwriting disclaimer above, any grade of A obtained without the use of the school computer is still a valid A obtained. Multiple rules/requirements are permitted to overlap in Warhammer. There is more than one way to obtain a psychic power and Psychic Focus only restricts generated ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or to put it another way...

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
If you type all of your homework on the school computer, you get an A. I wrote some of it by hand. Do I get an A?

Sentence deconstruction - Requirement: You type all. All = your homework. Type = verb. Explain how you are typing your homework by hand. Permission for A denied.

If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

Sentence deconstruction - Requirement: Psyker generates all. All = his psychic powers. Generates = verb. Explain how the Herald of Tzeentch generates Flickering Fire. Permission for Psychic Focus denied.

If you book all of your plane tickets on Expedia, you will save money. If you only book 3 out of 4 tickets on Expedia, did you NOT save money?
If you kill all of the people in New York, you are a mass murderer. If you only kill half the people in New York, are you NOT a mass murderer?
If you surpass all of the people in your company, you are the CEO. If you only surpass half the people, you may or may not become CEO.
If you paint all of your models to be black/gold, you are Black Legion Chaos. If you only paint half of them Black/Gold, what type of army do you have?
If you sell all of your paintings on the internet, you will be a millionaire. If you only sell half of them, it's possible you won't be.
If you insert all of your quarters into the vending machine, you will receive a candy bar. If you insert $5.00 in quarters and still have more in your pocket, you will STILL get a candy bar.

Your mistake was thinking all sentences of this format have identical verbiage rights and return the same result. Context matters.

Remember, you were the one harping on about grammar and ignoring matters of context. I feel we've now sufficiently established the error in this line of thinking.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Don't ignore grammar.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Where is this "context" you keep harping on about?

Arkaine, so you agree the following rule does absolutely nothing?

"If a Psyker has any psychic powers that are not part of a discipline, such as Force, those powers are not considered when determining whether the Psyker has Psychic Focus."

 Arkaine wrote:
If you book all of your plane tickets on Expedia, you will save money.  If you only book 3 out of 4 tickets on Expedia, did you NOT save money?
If you kill all of the people in New York, you are a mass murderer.  If you only kill half the people in New York, are you NOT a mass murderer?
If you surpass all of the people in your company, you are the CEO.  If you only surpass half the people, you may or may not become CEO.
If you paint all of your models to be black/gold, you are Black Legion Chaos.  If you only paint half of them Black/Gold, what type of army do you have?
If you sell all of your paintings on the internet, you will be a millionaire.  If you only sell half of them, it's possible you won't be.
If you insert all of your quarters into the vending machine, you will receive a candy bar.  If you insert $5.00 in quarters and still have more in your pocket, you will STILL get a candy bar.

Your mistake was thinking all sentences of this format have identical verbiage rights and return the same result.  Context matters.

Your mistake is expecting if-then statements in a permissive ruleset to behave like if-then statements about the real world.  In general the statement "if A then B" does not imply its converse, "if not A then not B".  That's all you've demonstrated in your examples above.

However in a permissive ruleset a rule stating "if A then B" does not function by restricting B if A is not satisfied.  It functions by permitting B if A is satisfied.  Further, in the absence of another rule permitting B its converse is true by default.  This is why your examples are not relevant - there are no other rules granting Psychic Focus so unless the condition in the rule is satisfied Psychic Focus is not granted.  All we need to worry about then is what that condition is.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Sentence deconstruction - Requirement: Psyker generates all. All = his psychic powers.  Generates = verb.  Explain how the Herald of Tzeentch generates Flickering Fire. Permission for Psychic Focus denied.

Correct Sentence Deconstruction - Requirement: Pysker generates all from.  All = his psychic powers.  Generates = verb.  From = the same discipline.  Flickering Fire is not one of the powers a psyker generates and is exempt from being examined by the rule.  Permission for Psychic Focus granted.

You are not being consistent.  Applying your logic above:

If you type all of your homework on the school computer, you get an A.

Requirement: You type all on.  All = your homework.  Type = verb.  On = the school computer.  Any homework I write by hand is not homework I typed and is exempt from being examined by the rule.  Permission for A granted.

Therefore, the rule above implies that as long as all my homework is handwritten I've satisfied the condition and should get an automatic A, right?