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So, as we all know, the Tau make a reguar habit of kicking Imperial ass. And, as well all know, the Void is 3-dimensional (ie more than one angle to attack from; even plunging straight into the heart of an Empire with little issue). And, as we all also know, the Imperium has literal mountains of Imperial Guard and Warships to throw at the Tau. So, my question is this:
Why doesn't the Imperium attack more than one Sept at a time? Why don't they use Rogue Traders for scouting (not like it would be that unusual, as this was a huge part of why the Emperor create Letters of Marque in the first place) out a bunch of Septs, then send fleets full of IG, SM, etc. to each one of them. This would strain Tau logistical capabilities to the limit; not to mention that fact that more than one Sept would be devestated by War.

Alternatively:
Why don't the Ultramarines go down to the Tau Empire and wreck some face? According to the Space Marine Codex, the Ultramarines have "many thousands" of Ultramar Auxilia (aka IG from Ultramar) Regiments, not to mention a friggin huge fleet. Why not just send a Company or Two of Astartes, and few hundred Regiments to start ploughing through Tau defenses? The Tau are on Ultramarine turf, and are becoming more and more of a nuisance (even threatening a major manufacterer of wealth in the Ultima Segmentum, known as the Gilded Systems), so why not just take 'em out for good?

Because if the Imperium diverts more resources to deal with the Tau then the Tyranids will eat more planets, Chaos cults will pop up everywhere, etc.

In the grand scheme of things, the Tau are not a threat. They are a minor nuisance, they will never have the numbers to properly trouble the Imperium. The imperium devote enough attention to them as needed to keep them from getting too big for their boots, but really, the numbers are needed against the orks, nids and outside the ey of terror.

Because the Tau are not a threat to the Imperium. The Imperium is under attack by far larger threats such as Chaos and the Tyranids, and needs everything it has to keep those enemies at bay. There simply are not enough IG and SM available for a major campaign against the Tau.
Also, a "few hundred" regiments of IG would be a pitifully small force for any sort of interstellar campaign. You would need many thousands of regiments in order to conquer and hold entire planets.

Because the Tau Empire can only be attacked in force by passing throught the Damocles Golf which is the only stable warp route to reach it. That's why the Crusade was forced to pass by there and the massive numerical advantage of the Imperium is constantly negated.

 dusara217 wrote:
So, as we all know, the Tau make a reguar habit of kicking Imperial ass. And, as well all know, the Void is 3-dimensional (ie more than one angle to attack from; even plunging straight into the heart of an Empire with little issue). And, as we all also know, the Imperium has literal mountains of Imperial Guard and Warships to throw at the Tau. So, my question is this:
Why doesn't the Imperium attack more than one Sept at a time? Why don't they use Rogue Traders for scouting (not like it would be that unusual, as this was a huge part of why the Emperor create Letters of Marque in the first place) out a bunch of Septs, then send fleets full of IG, SM, etc. to each one of them. This would strain Tau logistical capabilities to the limit; not to mention that fact that more than one Sept would be devestated by War.

Ultimately, the Tau exist because they Imperium has bigger issues. The Tau are supposed to be an example of oen of the many hundreds of minor Xenos factions, not a major galactic player.

The Damocles Gulf Crusade, which the Tau were only barely able to fight to a standstill, was composed only of a 19 Imperial Guard regiments (out of *billions*), and elements from 8 Space Marine chapters and a few other Imperial Factions. *That* minor Imperial force is what the Tau Empire was able to fight to a standstill, a smaller conflict than the rebellion on Vraks.The Tau are a sideshow, they're a minor Xenos power in a minor corner of the galaxy, and the Crusade forces were withdrawn to engage the far greater Tyranid threat that was being fought by uncountable numbers of troops.

If the Imperium cared enough, the Tau would be obliterated in short order, and there'd be absolutely nothing they could do about it.

What the Tau Empire's continued existence is predicated upon is the fact they're small and relatively inconsequential, they aren't big enough and hostile enough to really draw the ire of the Imperium. The Imperium has bigger problems to worry about.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
So, as we all know, the Tau make a reguar habit of kicking Imperial ass. And, as well all know, the Void is 3-dimensional (ie more than one angle to attack from; even plunging straight into the heart of an Empire with little issue). And, as we all also know, the Imperium has literal mountains of Imperial Guard and Warships to throw at the Tau. So, my question is this:
Why doesn't the Imperium attack more than one Sept at a time? Why don't they use Rogue Traders for scouting (not like it would be that unusual, as this was a huge part of why the Emperor create Letters of Marque in the first place) out a bunch of Septs, then send fleets full of IG, SM, etc. to each one of them. This would strain Tau logistical capabilities to the limit; not to mention that fact that more than one Sept would be devestated by War.

Ultimately, the Tau exist because they Imperium has bigger issues. The Tau are supposed to be an example of oen of the many hundreds of minor Xenos factions, not a major galactic player.

The Damocles Gulf Crusade, which the Tau were only barely able to fight to a standstill, was composed only of a 19 Imperial Guard regiments (out of *billions*), and elements from 8 Space Marine chapters and a few other Imperial Factions. *That* minor Imperial force is what the Tau Empire was able to fight to a standstill, a smaller conflict than the rebellion on Vraks.The Tau are a sideshow, they're a minor Xenos power in a minor corner of the galaxy, and the Crusade forces were withdrawn to engage the far greater Tyranid threat that was being fought by uncountable numbers of troops.

If the Imperium cared enough, the Tau would be obliterated in short order, and there'd be absolutely nothing they could do about it.

What the Tau Empire's continued existence is predicated upon is the fact they're small and relatively inconsequential, they aren't big enough and hostile enough to really draw the ire of the Imperium. The Imperium has bigger problems to worry about.

I understand that. I guess what I meant is "why didn't they actually recognize space as 3-dimensional during the Damocles Gulf Crusade?"

 dusara217 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
So, as we all know, the Tau make a reguar habit of kicking Imperial ass. And, as well all know, the Void is 3-dimensional (ie more than one angle to attack from; even plunging straight into the heart of an Empire with little issue). And, as we all also know, the Imperium has literal mountains of Imperial Guard and Warships to throw at the Tau. So, my question is this:
Why doesn't the Imperium attack more than one Sept at a time? Why don't they use Rogue Traders for scouting (not like it would be that unusual, as this was a huge part of why the Emperor create Letters of Marque in the first place) out a bunch of Septs, then send fleets full of IG, SM, etc. to each one of them. This would strain Tau logistical capabilities to the limit; not to mention that fact that more than one Sept would be devestated by War.

Ultimately, the Tau exist because they Imperium has bigger issues. The Tau are supposed to be an example of oen of the many hundreds of minor Xenos factions, not a major galactic player.

The Damocles Gulf Crusade, which the Tau were only barely able to fight to a standstill, was composed only of a 19 Imperial Guard regiments (out of *billions*), and elements from 8 Space Marine chapters and a few other Imperial Factions. *That* minor Imperial force is what the Tau Empire was able to fight to a standstill, a smaller conflict than the rebellion on Vraks.The Tau are a sideshow, they're a minor Xenos power in a minor corner of the galaxy, and the Crusade forces were withdrawn to engage the far greater Tyranid threat that was being fought by uncountable numbers of troops.

If the Imperium cared enough, the Tau would be obliterated in short order, and there'd be absolutely nothing they could do about it.

What the Tau Empire's continued existence is predicated upon is the fact they're small and relatively inconsequential, they aren't big enough and hostile enough to really draw the ire of the Imperium. The Imperium has bigger problems to worry about.

I understand that. I guess what I meant is "why didn't they actually recognize space as 3-dimensional during the Damocles Gulf Crusade?"

A "real" answer? Probably because of the relatively limited forces devoted to the crusade, but more cynically, because GW writers don't really think in great military terms, and because obliterating the new faction they just came out with would be rather silly.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade, which the Tau were only barely able to fight to a standstill, was composed only of a 19 Imperial Guard regiments (out of *billions*), and elements from 8 Space Marine chapters and a few other Imperial Factions. *That* minor Imperial force is what the Tau Empire was able to fight to a standstill, a smaller conflict than the rebellion on Vraks.

I think we have to dismiss that "19 regiments" number as just a scale failure by the author. Taros had ~10 regiments IIRC and that was a fairly minor skirmish on a planet that was only really appealing to the Tau because they thought they could take it for very little cost. It's just not plausible to go from "minor skirmish" to "civilization-threatening crisis" with a mere doubling of forces, so the obvious conclusion is that the actual numbers in the Damocles crusade were significantly higher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:
I understand that. I guess what I meant is "why didn't they actually recognize space as 3-dimensional during the Damocles Gulf Crusade?"

For the same reasons that nobody in 40k does. It's easier to treat space as just a flat piece of land with borders and front lines and everything than to try to portray realistic strategy in space warfare. You know, kind of like how 40k still has literal WWI trench warfare because the authors liked the "WWI in space" theme.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade, which the Tau were only barely able to fight to a standstill, was composed only of a 19 Imperial Guard regiments (out of *billions*), and elements from 8 Space Marine chapters and a few other Imperial Factions. *That* minor Imperial force is what the Tau Empire was able to fight to a standstill, a smaller conflict than the rebellion on Vraks.

I think we have to dismiss that "19 regiments" number as just a scale failure by the author. Taros had ~10 regiments IIRC and that was a fairly minor skirmish on a planet that was only really appealing to the Tau because they thought they could take it for very little cost. It's just not plausible to go from "minor skirmish" to "civilization-threatening crisis" with a mere doubling of forces, so the obvious conclusion is that the actual numbers in the Damocles crusade were significantly higher.

Entirely possible, that's just what I remember for the Damocles gulf crusade fluff, which probably was written before GW realized their numbers were silly small as, IIRC, it was one of the first pieces of Tau fluff. I don't remember much about the Taros crusade, it was one of the less interesting reads from my memory.

The Imperial invasion force for Taros was 9 regiments, of which only 7 ever made it into action. Embarkation of the other 2 was halted and then cancelled after the first wave stalled.

I do not see Imperial Crusades as an immense sledgehammer of all the regiments being committed in one go. Instead they would be waves, followed by more as reinforcements get assigned from further away. So it would be more like a vice, with ever increasing pressure over time until the Imperium finally has critical mass to roll over the enemy, or until the enemy collapses from attrition. Sure, a pocket empire (human or xenos) might fight off the 1st wave, and then the 2nd, but can they fight off the 52nd wave?

The reason why pocket empires exist or still exist despite Imperial attacks is because the Imperium lacks the political will to commit to what it would take to destroy them. This lack of political may be guided by other more pressing military needs elsewhere demanding resources. The Taros campaign was initially scraped together because the Imperium wanted the mineral resources on Taros, in order to up production at a forge world to prepare for Abaddon's expected 13th Black Crusade. However after the defeat of the first Imperial attempt, and the actual commencement of the 13th Black Crusade turning the Cadian Gate area into a black hole sucking up resources and troops, making a 2nd attempt to take Taros became a very low priority. Similarly, any pocket empire or rebellious world that fights off Imperial attack might still be on the Imperium's target list, but its priority may eventually drop so low as to be effectively negligible risk of another wave any time soon. The Imperium might quarantine the area and/or purge records. So long as as the rebels or pocket empire keeps a low profile, years or even generations might pass with the Imperium doing nothing.

Similarly on Vraks, the mortal Chaos forces were hoping that if they held out long enough, the Imperium's interest would wane and it would re-deploy its forces elsewhere. The Imperium did re-deploy forces, but those remaining were still ultimately sufficient to finish the job. The other flaw in the rebels' reasoning was Vraks was a dead world, and the rebels were running off of captured stockpiles of war material. With no real means of production (beyond the simplest of small arms and ammo), and no real population to replenish losses over time, there was no hope for them to hold out or recover even if the Imperium had left only a token holding force.

 dusara217 wrote:
I understand that. I guess what I meant is "why didn't they actually recognize space as 3-dimensional during the Damocles Gulf Crusade?"

Because the Imperium just charged in blindly, without scouting or knowing what to expect. The objective was to punish the Tau for meddling with the Imperium's border worlds but they had no idea what to expect, so the Crusade just stumbled from world to world, working outwards from the Imperium's borders.

Besides, the Crusade force was too small to deal with the Tau's inner worlds so attacking from a different angle wouldn't have helped.

Either that or

epronovost wrote:
Because the Tau Empire can only be attacked in force by passing throught the Damocles Golf which is the only stable warp route to reach it. That's why the Crusade was forced to pass by there and the massive numerical advantage of the Imperium is constantly negated.

That said, the Tyranids actually art attacking from below the galactic plane, which is why they're now threatening the whole galaxy rather than just the eastern rim.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Damocles Gulf Crusade, which the Tau were only barely able to fight to a standstill, was composed only of a 19 Imperial Guard regiments (out of *billions*), and elements from 8 Space Marine chapters and a few other Imperial Factions. *That* minor Imperial force is what the Tau Empire was able to fight to a standstill, a smaller conflict than the rebellion on Vraks.

I think we have to dismiss that "19 regiments" number as just a scale failure by the author. Taros had ~10 regiments IIRC and that was a fairly minor skirmish on a planet that was only really appealing to the Tau because they thought they could take it for very little cost. It's just not plausible to go from "minor skirmish" to "civilization-threatening crisis" with a mere doubling of forces, so the obvious conclusion is that the actual numbers in the Damocles crusade were significantly higher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:
I understand that. I guess what I meant is "why didn't they actually recognize space as 3-dimensional during the Damocles Gulf Crusade?"

For the same reasons that nobody in 40k does. It's easier to treat space as just a flat piece of land with borders and front lines and everything than to try to portray realistic strategy in space warfare. You know, kind of like how 40k still has literal WWI trench warfare because the authors liked the "WWI in space" theme.

Next your going to tell me that there's actually more than a million marines in the galaxy too. Its almost as if none of these numbers put out by GW are reliable at all...

In all seriousness the Imperium could have literally just sent 19 regiments just to show they don't give a gak.

The Tau are like that annoying little kid to the Imperium. The Tau shuffle up quietly and steal a biscuit or something, the Imperium puts down it's newspaper for a sec to sigh then goes back to reading while the Tau run off.

Then the Tau squabble for a bit and now we have Tau who only like the ones with the red jam in them while the normal Tau just want the boring plain ones. In the grand scheme of things the Imperium could with little effort stop it, but instead don't care cause things are more important like buying more biscuits, paying the bills and going to work. They have plenty of biscuits that they don't need to worry about the odd one missing. Of course sometimes they can be bothered to put the Tau in time out, when they're bored and seemingly have nothing better to do, aka the Damocles crusade.

As others have accurately pointed out, its not that the Imperium couldn't steam roll the Tau. Its that it would require more resources and time then they can effectively spare when there are more pressing matters such as Chaos, Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, Eldar, rebelling worlds, etc to deal with. Modeled in a similar parallel as to the Roman Empire, the Imperium of Man is stretched thin with threats all around, strained logistics to keep the empire together, and local corruption and political intrigue that prevents any unified goal. All this is chipping away at the foundation as they both continue down the path of a slow decline.

GW writers aren't smart enough to allow those sort of strategies for any but the most brilliant tacticians of the more intelligent factions.

 Scrabb wrote:
GW writers aren't smart enough to allow those sort of strategies for any but the most brilliant tacticians of the more intelligent factions.

Maybe the problem is that the Imperium doesn't have the technology for 3d maps to make sense, and so every commander assumes space is 2 dimensional except for the most elite of their number.

 n0t_u wrote:
The Tau are like that annoying little kid to the Imperium. The Tau shuffle up quietly and steal a biscuit or something, the Imperium puts down it's newspaper for a sec to sigh then goes back to reading while the Tau run off.

Then the Tau squabble for a bit and now we have Tau who only like the ones with the red jam in them while the normal Tau just want the boring plain ones. In the grand scheme of things the Imperium could with little effort stop it, but instead don't care cause things are more important like buying more biscuits, paying the bills and going to work. They have plenty of biscuits that they don't need to worry about the odd one missing. Of course sometimes they can be bothered to put the Tau in time out, when they're bored and seemingly have nothing better to do, aka the Damocles crusade.

And then the Imperium sighs and reads its newspaper one time too many, and a single gun drone (now with a few more centuries of advancing Tau technology behind it) slaughters the entire Imperium out of boredom.

 Peregrine wrote:
And then the Imperium sighs and reads its newspaper one time too many, and a single gun drone (now with a few more centuries of advancing Tau technology behind it) slaughters the entire Imperium out of boredom.

The Tau are hardly advancing that fast. The Spheres of Expansion have been going on for thousands of years (yes, thousands: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Spheres_of_Expansion), but you don't see them steamrolling the Imperium. They've barely advanced enough to make an impact anywhere outside their immediate vicinity. And they've got a lot of catching up to do with factions like the Eldar and the Necrons.

So yea, that would only happen in your wildest headcanon.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Maybe the problem is that the Imperium doesn't have the technology for 3d maps to make sense, and so every commander assumes space is 2 dimensional except for the most elite of their number.

You'll never have a decent fluff discussion when you're always posting dismissive troll comments... We're talking about space-faring factions here. Of course they have an understanding of 3 dimensional space.

 Peregrine wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
The Tau are like that annoying little kid to the Imperium. The Tau shuffle up quietly and steal a biscuit or something, the Imperium puts down it's newspaper for a sec to sigh then goes back to reading while the Tau run off.

Then the Tau squabble for a bit and now we have Tau who only like the ones with the red jam in them while the normal Tau just want the boring plain ones. In the grand scheme of things the Imperium could with little effort stop it, but instead don't care cause things are more important like buying more biscuits, paying the bills and going to work. They have plenty of biscuits that they don't need to worry about the odd one missing. Of course sometimes they can be bothered to put the Tau in time out, when they're bored and seemingly have nothing better to do, aka the Damocles crusade.

And then the Imperium sighs and reads its newspaper one time too many, and a single gun drone (now with a few more centuries of advancing Tau technology behind it) slaughters the entire Imperium out of boredom.

More likely:

And then the Imperium sighs and reads its newspaper one time too many, and a single frisbee (now with a few more centuries of advancing Tau technology behind it) knocks the paper out of his hands, thus starting the Damocles Crusade.

1 Dimensional writing vs 3 Dimensional Warfare..

Maps and set ups of GW tend to be 'very fictional' . Many of them may work in someones personal narratively forged imagination. But , they don't stand up to logic.
Basic Maps like Star maps of influence of one faction are usually fine. Campaign Maps seem closer to RPG maps IMHO.

GW protected their ( latest addition / 2001 ) playable army they had as "new upstart Empire" with warp storms, a Gulf meant hard to cross, put them far out in the east , etc.
It doesn't seem to stop Orks and Nids from visiting.
Now, if you take the Maps with all these "invasions" from the Codex, there is 2D / 3D...

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
And then the Imperium sighs and reads its newspaper one time too many, and a single gun drone (now with a few more centuries of advancing Tau technology behind it) slaughters the entire Imperium out of boredom.

The Tau are hardly advancing that fast. The Spheres of Expansion have been going on for thousands of years (yes, thousands: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Spheres_of_Expansion), but you don't see them steamrolling the Imperium. They've barely advanced enough to make an impact anywhere outside their immediate vicinity. And they've got a lot of catching up to do with factions like the Eldar and the Necrons.

So yea, that would only happen in your wildest headcanon.

Well, TBF, humans as a race are about 250,000 years old at that point, where as tau went from stone age to what they are now in about 6,000 years (the human stone age eneded between 6000 and 2000 BCE), they have unprecedented advancement levels. Another 4-5K years unimpeded and they'll be far beyond high human tech levels. The question is, will they last that long, especially if their AI use bites them in the ass.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Maybe the problem is that the Imperium doesn't have the technology for 3d maps to make sense, and so every commander assumes space is 2 dimensional except for the most elite of their number.

You'll never have a decent fluff discussion when you're always posting dismissive troll comments... We're talking about space-faring factions here. Of course they have an understanding of 3 dimensional space.

... and one of those factions can't make toasters without an STC template for it...

People say this about the Tau, but I'm not convinced the IoM can do anything remotely competent. Ever.

You don't have to be good with technology to understand 3d. It's something that all things just know. Because we live in a 3-d world. At this point you are trolling.

Edit: directed at nortal, not martel

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You don't have to be good with technology to understand 3d. It's something that all things just know. Because we live in a 3-d world. At this point you are trolling.

Edit: directed at nortal, not martel

Clearly not true. I saw Star Trek II. I know better.

I had to laugh when you first started talking about 3 dimensional warfare as I immediately thought that having to worry about 3 dimensions is also how life would be like in the ocean. Now, I can't remember if the Tau really are fish people or if I'm getting that from the naming scheme of their vehicles, but when I put 2 and 2 together I had to laugh a little bit. Tau are better at void warfare because they have evolutionary instincts primed for 3 dimensional thinking :p

No, Tau are not fish people, they are camel people.

Air Caste Tau, however, are raised in low-G environments and descended from flight-capable camel people, so they actually do have a genetic history of three dimensional movement.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
No, Tau are not fish people, they are camel people.

Air Caste Tau, however, are raised in low-G environments and descended from flight-capable camel people, so they actually do have a genetic history of three dimensional movement.

In the same way, thousands of generations of Imperial Navy crew live and die without ever leaving their ship, so they should also have a pretty innate understanding of three dimensional movement. Or at least the nobility responsible for steering the ship has.