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Okay, here's a rules question: If you have the Commander from the Retaliation Cadre attached to a Crisis Suit team that was NOT part of the formation, yet still placed in reserve, would that unit (Commander + Non-Formation CS Team) still be able to use the Low Altitude Deployment &
Drop Zone Clear rules? My initial thoughts on this is "no", but then again, I could see it going either way. Since he is "part of the unit for all rules purposes" (as has been discussed ad naseum), then wouldn't the unit he joined be able to take part in at least the first rule, since he is part of the formation? But the unit he joined is NOT part of the formation.

The second (Drop Zone Clear) is pretty explicit to only the models in this formation.

Once an IC joins a unit, it essentially stops being a unit. It is then no longer a unit from the formation.

Nope. The other Crisis aren't part of the formation, so son't get the bonus.

Okay, as an addendum to the "no, it's no longer a unit from the formation," would the formation (since the IC would no longer be part of the formation) still meet the requirements to apply the two rules to itself?

Weirdly no. Not all units from the formation (the IC being one) were held in reserve; even if it is attached to a unit the unit isn't in reserve (it doesn't exist) but the model is .

But, the Commander is still in deepstrike and so still meets the requirements.

Where is the commander UNIT

It specifies all *units* from the formation

Not all models.

Spotted the difference?

I do, but if the unit no longer exists, would it also still meet the requirements? Because then all units of the formation (of which there just happens to be one less of because it no longer exists) would still be in reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's a very interesting rules conundrum. Personally I could still see the commander dragging along a unit of Crisis Suits.

Except the data sheet lists the units that are part of the formation. If you are missing one, then not all units have been put into reserve

Let's say you attach the commander to a unit that is part of the formation. Could you then not deepstrike? Seems absurd to me.

No. Again, have all UNITS been placed in reserve? No, the commander UNIT has not been (it doesn't exist!) even though the *model* has.

Sadly, I believe that RAW you are correct. It seems such an odd occurrence that you take the Commander from a Hunter Cadre and put him in a unit of Crisis Suits in the Retaliation Cadre and follow all the rules, but the Commander leading the RC cannot.

Such an odd rule.

This one is where we get into some stupid IC situations.

Even if the commander IC joins a crisis team from the formation he stops being a unit from the formation(as he stops being a unit altogether) and therefore not all the units from the formation are held in reserve(1 of them was but then stopped existing when it joined another in reserves).

The easiest houserule for it is to allow the non-ICs to follow the formation if the commander unit vanishes due to the ic joining any units(whether in deployment or reserves) after all the commander model becomes a member of the other unit so all units left in the formation would still qualify(they ate the only units in that formation at the end of deployment)

These are very similar issues as the psyker/psychic unit definition.

HWIPI:
- Commander from RetCadre joining an outside unit: RetCadre cannot enjoy all of its benefits.
- Commander from RetCadre joining an internal unit: RetCadre works as normal
- Outside Commander joining a RetCadre unit: ReCadre works as normal

HWIPI?

vitae_drinker wrote:
HWIPI?

How Would I Play It

Ah, gotcha. Thanks.

I would argue all units that exist would fulfill the requirements. So say in a FBSC the Riptide dies the broadsides can still join firepower to get TH/MH. Thus the IC attached to either a unit in the formation or another unit then the rest of the units in the formation can do their DS turn 2 thing.

The rule asks for all units in the formation not all units listed on the datasheet. When the commander unit no longer exists what units do I have from that formation? Are they all in DS reserve? If I answer yes to that 2nd question I have filled the requirements.


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Though the reverse works fine attach an IC to any of these units and he will get dragged along turn 2.

Yes, it asks all units in the formati9on. Before the start of the game, the IC is a unit in the formaiton. If the IC unit does not end up in DS reserve, for any reason, then indisputably the rule has not been complied with.

Cool what units in the formation do I have when the IC is joined to a unit?

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool what units in the formation do I have when the IC is joined to a unit?

Irrelevant when the rule does not ask what units you have after the IC joins. The rule requires all units in the formaiton. Well I can see what units are in the formation, theyre on the datasheet. This is indisuptable. Well, at least when following the rules it is.

If you disagree, show SOME relevance for what you're asking. Not playing your usual games of 200 questions.

Currently you need to prove your case, and you have made no rules relevant argument. Please do so.

I'm trying to determine what units I have in the formation to ensure I can use the rule. So answer the question.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Cool what units in the formation do I have when the IC is joined to a unit?

Which IC, one from the formation or one from outside the formation?

I believe I see what you are trying to argue. When the Commander joins to a unit, he stops being a unit and thus one of the units in the formation no longer exist.

This is what you are trying to argue, correct?

Edit:
I believe I have found the answer, kinda.
In Deep Strike, you have to first place a unit into reserves. After the unit has been placed in reserves, you can declare it is deep striking, and have IC join units.
The key thing here is that units are placed into reserves first. The Retaliation Cadre only cares, "If all the units from this Formation start in reserve".
After all the units have been placed into reserves, fulfilling that requirement that all the units start in reserves, you declare who is Deep Striking and what units IC are attached to.
This is assuming of course the rule simply cares that you did put them into reserves, not that they are in reserves when it is time to drop.

Unfortunately, while this does unlock the Low Altitude Deployment rule, it doesn't explain what happens when you attach the Commander to a unit outside the formation.
I believe that he wouldn't be allowed to drop, but I'm not certain on it.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I'm trying to determine what units I have in the formation to ensure I can use the rule. So answer the question.

Not relevant, as the rule talks about the units in the formation. The units in the formation are listed on the datasheet, and nothing PERMITS you to ignore these

So now, answer the question - what PERMITS you to ignore the unit listing on the datasheet? P{age and graph please.

Again, you have to prove yor case, as currently ours is proven. You have yet to do so, and youre just doing your annoying as feth ask 200 question gak. It didnt fly last threead you tried it in either

So what units are in the formation at the start of turn 2 if the IC is attached to another unit?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So what units are in the formation at the start of turn 2 if the IC is attached to another unit?

All the units except the commander, though if he was put into reserves, the condition from them dropping will be satisfied. If he is attached to a unit in the formation, he will drop with them, otherwise he will wait with the unit he is attached to in reserves.

Do you have some solid evidence to the contrary?

Oh I agree entirely Nilok. Nos is contesting the commander unit still exists when he is attached but as it doesn't exist you can't fulfill the rule...

Hmm. Seems like this heated up while I was sleeping lol.

How is this for an order of operations:

-Retaliation Cadre (Crisis Suit units #1-3) has been built and is part of the army list, along with a Hunter Cadre with another Crisis Suit unit (#4) and a Commander
-Informed opponent that the Hunter Cadre's Commander and Crisis Suit will start in Reserve and will Deep Strike
-Informed opponent that all units in the Retaliation Cadre formation will start in Reserve (satisfying requirement for Low Altitude Deployment)
-Informed opponent that the formation will be using Low Altitude Deployment
-Informed Opponent that Commander from RC will be joining Crisis Suit unit #1
-Informed Opponent that Commander from Hunter Cadre will also join Crisis Suit unit #1

It seems to me that this satisfies all rules requirements because all units from the formation started in Reserve, and informed my opponent that they would be utilizing Low Altitude Deployment.

Have we considered that this conversation may have drifted out of the realms of what the rules tell you to do, and into the realm of chasing phrasing down into the realms of absurdity and mugging it?

This isn't even the usual "GW are bad at wording things" issue, you could find this kind of silliness in any system if you dug deep enough into torturing the language.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Oh I agree entirely Nilok. Nos is contesting the commander unit still exists when he is attached but as it doesn't exist you can't fulfill the rule...

I'm not , at all. Stop putting words in my mouth

I'm stating that the rule requires you to put all units in the formation into reserve. Before the game starts the IC is a unit by himself, as evidenced by the data sheet. That is a unit that must be put into reserves.

Failing to out that unit into reserves breaks a rule.