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Am I the only one that doesn't understand why loyalist Terminators have elected to use Storm Bolters when Combi-Bolters are better in every way for Terminators? Is this another case of Loyalists being idiots?

They're meant to pretty much be the same thing iirc, just rules wise stormbolters suck and should have a higher rate of fire with a shorter range to show a slight loss in accuracy for the nice jump in rate of fire.

Not a case of loyalists being idiots, just a case of rules changing over time to no longer accurately reflect the fluff. Rapid fire weapons got better, and assault weapons didn't.

 insaniak wrote:
Not a case of loyalists being idiots, just a case of rules changing over time to no longer accurately reflect the fluff. Rapid fire weapons got better, and assault weapons didn't.

Maybe if Storm Bolters counted as Specialist CC weapons with Str User AP -, they would be worth it.

It's not a case of loyalists being stupid. It's a case of the fluff of storm bolters doesn't match the crunch

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Maybe if Storm Bolters counted as Specialist CC weapons with Str User AP -, they would be worth it.

Wouldn't make a lot of sense, though.

Just bumping them up a shot would be more fitting. They should be better than a combi-bolter, but not by that much.

 insaniak wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Maybe if Storm Bolters counted as Specialist CC weapons with Str User AP -, they would be worth it.

Wouldn't make a lot of sense, though.

Just bumping them up a shot would be more fitting. They should be better than a combi-bolter, but not by that much.

A combi-bolter is basically two bolters grafted together. A storm bolter would have less redundant systems and be more compact and efficient. So an extra shot would make sense. It would off-set the twin-linked, sort of.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why loyalist Terminators have elected to use Storm Bolters when Combi-Bolters are better in every way for Terminators? Is this another case of Loyalists being idiots?

Because game mechanics aren't static over multiple editions. When Terminators were first created, these weapons functioned differently than they do now, there was no "assualt" or "rapid fire" type, and Storm bolters were very good indeed in RT and 2nd edition. Through edition changes and variances in game mechanics, unit value, etc, these things have changed.

If you can get a copy of the 2E Wargear book, that'll give you a better idea of what these weapons really should look like next to one another.

If anything SB should probably be salvo 2/4 or 3/5 something like that

That wouldn't be terrible. It would buff Storm Bolters considerably.

Yeh, probably drop to like 18" or some other balancer for things like Rhinos who would suddenly have 8-10 shots from the two they can take tho...

That's the tricky thing about them, they need the buff but they're used so widely as they are at the moment. For rhinos it could be as simple as reducing it to just the pintlemounted, but then you unintentionally give it a very slight hit to its durability. Not as much as before really.

Giving them Salvo is dangerous, considering Relentless and all.

True, it does mean you'd never see them on a non-relentless platform. But I think it would be an ok buff. You might see PF/SB terminators again.

It used to be a pretty good trade off. Stormbolters were potentially better at 12.1 - 24", and combi bolters were better at 1" - 12"

But, rapid fire weapons have changed over time and the lines have blurred a little bit more.

The worst part about making any changes to the Storm Bolter is that it increases the strength of the Rhino and Drop Pod and the 5 pt vehicle upgrade. Not by a lot, but it is still there. Hence why I wanted to give it some CC capability since it removes the vehicle aspect of things.

Buffed to be producing 4-5 shots per Model?

While the Storm Bolter is meant to have a higher rate of fire then the standard Bolter, that number of Shots is usually reserved for weapon systems that produce "rotating barrels to prevent from over-heating" rates of fire. This assault weapon should be able to easily produce rates of fire on par with single barrelled machine guns. Thus there is no reason to conclude the Game Mechanics should grant it a higher number of Shots then that already granted to the default "machine gun" type weapon systems in this game: 3. It better fits the concept of a smaller, more compact, machine gun designed to be used in tight corridors that could trip up a longer barrelled machine gun that the Storm Bolter appears designed to fill. Even Metal Storm systems would have trouble justifying why they should have that many Shots.

Personally:
They are Terminators, the most heavy of the heavy infantry produced by the Imperium of Man... I have no problem with them having Heavy Bolters as their default weapon.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The worst part about making any changes to the Storm Bolter is that it increases the strength of the Rhino and Drop Pod and the 5 pt vehicle upgrade. Not by a lot, but it is still there. Hence why I wanted to give it some CC capability since it removes the vehicle aspect of things.

Maybe people would take Rhinos if they had some moderate firepower. I doubt buffing Storm bolters is gonna make Rhinos overpowered.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The worst part about making any changes to the Storm Bolter is that it increases the strength of the Rhino and Drop Pod and the 5 pt vehicle upgrade. Not by a lot, but it is still there. Hence why I wanted to give it some CC capability since it removes the vehicle aspect of things.

Maybe people would take Rhinos if they had some moderate firepower. I doubt buffing Storm bolters is gonna make Rhinos overpowered.

Hey, I take Rhinos! I almost always get some okay usage out of them too. However, I agree, having an extra shot would be nice. 2/4 Salvo would probably be just fine.

2/4 sounds good really, but really it's very delicate to change storm bolters due to their wide spread.

 n0t_u wrote:
2/4 sounds good really, but really it's very delicate to change storm bolters due to their wide spread.

Besides Terminators and vehicles they are included on, who even uses Storm Bolters?

I think Salvo 2/4 would be a good change for Storm Bolters, means terminator squads can put out a decent amount of dakka (combined with their heavy weapon). Might give me reason to actually buy PF/SB termies

 n0t_u wrote:
2/4 sounds good really, but really it's very delicate to change storm bolters due to their wide spread.

But thanks to some stupid wording on salvo weapons on anything other than relentless platforms your only going to get 2 shots at 12" on the move. Stormbolters were nice on standard infantry models because 2 shots at 24" moving or not gave them a good threat range where the Heavy Bolter had to always stand still.

The easier answer would be to leave stormbolters the same and just give terminators a different ranged weapon like the heavy bolter, since this seems to be the only place where anyone complains about stormbolters.

Marines can already get enough S4 shots. Giving it more shots as is won't make anyone want to take it.

The best way to make it appealing is S5.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Marines can already get enough S4 shots. Giving it more shots as is won't make anyone want to take it.

The best way to make it appealing is S5.

Str5 AP5 or Str5 AP4?

the biggest problem is that the storm bolter on table acts more like a bolter than a heavy bolter which is a weapon it has a lot more in common with, however if they make changes rhino's are now fast options in armies like blood angels and that means storm bolter spam on the cheap becomes a thing.

it also requires them to actually correct the shirt they write, which they havent done since the chum famine of 59

I am still unable to see why a Storm Bolter should produce more Shots then a Heavy Bolter, let alone the same number of shots as a boltgun hailed as a Relic.
Still say to just give Terminators Heavy Bolters though, the point cost doesn't even need to change because it would at least be 10 points we can account for.

JinxDragon wrote:
I am still unable to see why a Storm Bolter should produce more Shots then a Heavy Bolter, let alone the same number of shots as a boltgun hailed as a Relic.
Still say to just give Terminators Heavy Bolters though, the point cost doesn't even need to change because it would at least be 10 points we can account for.

I wouldn't disagree with that. I used to be in favor of them getting Assault Cannons base...

Any problems with Rhino's isn't associated really with their firepower, they're not supposed to be particularly well armed, they're APC's not IFV's. And people still do take Rhinos, however their greatest problem is that you cannot assault out of them at all, which greatly devalues the role and the point to taking larger squads, while the Razorback allows you to get the extra heavy weapons firepower that taking a larger squad offers, but without having to make the full investment in a larger squad, making it the more optimal choice in most instances as a result.

There's nothing wrong with the Rhino, there's a problem with a core rule mechanic.

Lets also not forget that Storm Bolters are on things other than Rhinos as well, do we really need to see drop pod armies get an additional squad or two's worth of bolter shots?

Storm Bolters just don't have any business being 4 or 5 shot guns, even in their heyday, they didn't have that much firepower, that's getting into numbers of dice typically reserved for very high RoF weapons or banks of multiple weapons.

Part of what made Storm Bolters pretty solid in older edtiions like 2E were things that the current game doesn't really bother with anymore. Between ASM's and Terminator armor having a Targeter that gave a to-hit bonus, such that they had a higher average wound output than they do now, but largely the same wound output potential against heavy infantry, but were only slightly better against things like Guardsmen than they are now. If you double (or more) the number of shots, you just get an insanely high damage output per gun relative to what they're supposed to be.

A 5 shot Storm Bolter would roughly equate to the damage output of a Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter against most infantry. You'd basically turn rhino's into Razorbacks, and likewise dramatically overgun Drop Pods.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Stormbolters were potentially better at 12.1 - 24", and combi bolters were better at 1" - 12"

But, rapid fire weapons have changed over time and the lines have blurred a little bit more.

Err, this is exactly how it works now.

I have storm bolters being able to fire as heavy 3, but cannot be fired that way for snapshots. Helped the grey knights significantly because their alternate weapons are all salvo or heavy (aside from the flamer) it lets them hold ground effectively.

Edit: I made combi-bolters count as a ccw also, the chaos termies have giant chainsaw blades on the things for crying out loud!