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 Vaktathi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
With the sheer amount of ap2 weapons in this game I really doubt it would be that big of a deal.

And point for point regular space marines are better than terminators in a fire fight.

Not every army is Eldar, running around with a gazillion AP2 weapons, particularly ranged options. There's neither a good balance nor fluff argument that their save should only have a 1-in-36 chance to fail, especially at the scale 40k is played at.

There is fluff in the first couple HH books about a single unit of terminators walking across a bridge with hundreds of lasguns being fired at them and suffering no casualties.

You can probably find an example of just about anything at this point, but in general, Terminator armor is not fully proof against all non AP2 weapons. Bolters have been shown to kill Terminators, as have Krak missiles, claws, battlecannons, heavy bolters, power swords, etc, all of which are non-AP2 as well.

In TT terms that would not work at all as all the terminators would be flooded with saves they couldn't possibly even hope saving.

It's not much of a game if they can't really be hurt.

Others did give them +1 wound, which would kind of be even better since many ap2 weapons wouldn't be able to kill them in a single shot.

And then we've got entire squads of mini-characters again, and the game has lots of problems with those, particularly once you start getting "look out sir" rolls going. If they're going to get W2, they shouldn't stay 35pts either (units like Obliterators aren't paying 40pts each just for their guns).

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
With the sheer amount of ap2 weapons in this game I really doubt it would be that big of a deal.

And point for point regular space marines are better than terminators in a fire fight.

Not every army is Eldar, running around with a gazillion AP2 weapons, particularly ranged options. There's neither a good balance nor fluff argument that their save should only have a 1-in-36 chance to fail, especially at the scale 40k is played at.

Eldar don't specialize in AP2, they specialize in "save 100 wounds! Can't? I guess you're dead".

It's not like they can't do both. I mean, they can pack in gobs of S6 shooting *and* two dozen AP2 guns in most lists

With the risk of hijacking this thread about how to fix terminators, the only other option would be to reduce the cost of terminators which I personally am not a fan of because... They shouldn't feel like a cheap heavy elite soldier to me.

It just sounds wrong, terminators aside from melee are one of the poorest dps range choices you can make, their real advantage is melee and their toughness. Storm shields are good because 3+ is actually decent, but suffer from the same volume of fire weakness.

Rerollable armour save would actually make it better than just taking artificer on a hero as well since they usually have a better than 5++ anyways.

In all honesty I would like to see a few units with 2+ rerollable armour saves because with the amount of damage scaling this game has I think it would help.

I vote for making heavy bolters salvo 2/3 instead of buffing either storm bolters or combi ones

More S4 shots is useless. And people would say they should cost more. Doubly useless.

At this stage of the arms race, the first measure towards turning Terminators into something truly useful would be giving them two wounds. It would make them double as durable against things like Plasma weapons and equivalents. Also the Storm Shields should be nerfed to grant +2 to Invul save instead of a flat out 3++, such a nerf would not only make sense overall, but Termies would likely be the only ones not affected by it since they would retain the 3++ save in combination with the Iron Halo.

Personally, I wouldn't change much more beyond that. The problem is not really with the Terminators themselves, but with how crazy the arms race has raged in the last 10 years. Terminators however have remained mostly the same as they were in 3rd edition, when the game was much less packed with AP2 than today, and small Rapid Fire weapons were more limited at providing the mass volume of shots that makes Terminators statistically inviable today.

As with the "space marine" concept, I think it's more a matter of swinging the nerfbat heavily with many other things rather than giving crazy buffs to the Termies. Won't happen though, at least while GW is in charge of the game. They have to sell more Centurions and other grimderp stuff.

The biggest problem methinks is simply that the scale of the game has runaway on itself. Terminators are fearsome heavy assault infantry, but are ultimately infantry nonetheless. When the game is now factoring in strategic bombers, Godzilla sized creatures, single units that put out more mid-strength firepower than entire 5E IG gunlines would, and units that are basically composed entirely of "ultra-HQ" equivalent units (e.g. TWC deathstars), it becomes difficult to reasonably differentiate units without turning them into something they're not.

More and more I think that infantry squads in general just need to be abstracted essentially as a single entity if the game's scale is going to stay the way it is or continue to escalate. Micromanaging each individual infantryman's save or their handheld weapons when there's stuff like I previously mentioned floating about the board is simply far too granular for what is necessary.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The biggest problem methinks is simply that the scale of the game has runaway on itself. Terminators are fearsome heavy assault infantry, but are ultimately infantry nonetheless. When the game is now factoring in strategic bombers, Godzilla sized creatures, single units that put out more mid-strength firepower than entire 5E IG gunlines would, and units that are basically composed entirely of "ultra-HQ" equivalent units (e.g. TWC deathstars), it becomes difficult to reasonably differentiate units without turning them into something they're not.

More and more I think that infantry squads in general just need to be abstracted essentially as a single entity if the game's scale is going to stay the way it is or continue to escalate. Micromanaging each individual infantryman's save or their handheld weapons when there's stuff like I previously mentioned floating about the board is simply far too granular for what is necessary.

But by terminator "fluff" they're supposed to be able to survive strat bombers and Godzilla. I guess.

Terminators weren't particularly worth taking in the first place though. The scale of the game hasn't exactly changed that.

Terminators, give 'em T5, 2W, S5 AP 5 Storm Bolters w/ Salvo 2/3 or something.

BAM! Instantly takeable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Terminators weren't particularly worth taking in the first place though. The scale of the game hasn't exactly changed that.

They were in previous editions. I was *very* fond of CSM terminators in late 4th/early 5th and found them to be quite effective. I remember Terminator squads in 4th being solid, if not spectacular, options.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The biggest problem methinks is simply that the scale of the game has runaway on itself. Terminators are fearsome heavy assault infantry, but are ultimately infantry nonetheless. When the game is now factoring in strategic bombers, Godzilla sized creatures, single units that put out more mid-strength firepower than entire 5E IG gunlines would, and units that are basically composed entirely of "ultra-HQ" equivalent units (e.g. TWC deathstars), it becomes difficult to reasonably differentiate units without turning them into something they're not.

More and more I think that infantry squads in general just need to be abstracted essentially as a single entity if the game's scale is going to stay the way it is or continue to escalate. Micromanaging each individual infantryman's save or their handheld weapons when there's stuff like I previously mentioned floating about the board is simply far too granular for what is necessary.

But by terminator "fluff" they're supposed to be able to survive strat bombers and Godzilla. I guess.

They're really intended for boarding actions or to break open a defensive fortification, not enduring open pitched battle against strategic weapons, ultra heavy artillery, massed tank formations, monsters like Wraithknights and Heirophants, etc. They *can* hurt such things, but in just about every iteration of 40k, be it 2E, Epic, etc, Terminators die only very slightly less easy than normal infantry against these kinds of things.

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Terminators, give 'em T5, 2W, S5 AP 5 Storm Bolters w/ Salvo 2/3 or something.

BAM! Instantly takeable.

They'd still be centurions with popguns. Trash. Centurions with grav cannons would still be much better.

Martel732 wrote:

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:
Terminators, give 'em T5, 2W, S5 AP 5 Storm Bolters w/ Salvo 2/3 or something.

BAM! Instantly takeable.

They'd still be centurions with popguns. Trash. Centurions with grav cannons would still be much better.

Centurions I think are a big part of the problem with GW's inflation and scale issues. They're "Terminators...but better!" and cut into both what Terminators were there for and what Dreadnoughts were supposed to be, and just overall were a very shortsighted and hamfisted creation.

But they're still in the game, and so pretty much any "fixed" terminator is a centurion with a pop gun. That's why my fix gives them assault cannons instead of extra defenses. Because GMCs aren't immune to rending and so terminators would have some place in the meta.

Centurions were a direct result of Chaos having something nice, and the imperials needing to have it too.

 Konrax wrote:
Centurions were a direct result of Chaos having something nice, and the imperials needing to have it too.

I seriously doubt this. Timmy's spess mahreens were getting tabled by Taudar. The funny part is that you have to bolt on invisibility for even centurions to survive against those armies.

More power creep is not the answer.


Make termites cheaper, or give them a "terminator bolter" which has a bit of a kick.


I've always preferred combi bolters, only because they work better when deep striking.

 welshhoppo wrote:
More power creep is not the answer.


Make termites cheaper, or give them a "terminator bolter" which has a bit of a kick.


I've always preferred combi bolters, only because they work better when deep striking.

More power creep is absolutely the answer. Until everything has crept up to where it has actual utility in the way the game is actually played. That means taking on scatbikes and WKs. If your unit can't do that, it's garbage in practice. Why do you think the Tau got D missiles? Because S10 railguns are popguns against WKs.

"Bolter" and "kick" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Heavy bolters are god awful now in 7th. This makes all weaker bolters even worse.

Martel732 wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Centurions were a direct result of Chaos having something nice, and the imperials needing to have it too.

I seriously doubt this. Timmy's spess mahreens were getting tabled by Taudar. The funny part is that you have to bolt on invisibility for even centurions to survive against those armies.

Oblits came around in 4th and I remember specifically SM players making a big stink about me fielding them, saying they were so op and that they should have an equivalent unit. Then centurions showed up.

Multi wound terminator heavy weapon unit... Can be used to describe either one of them.

Although my own personal experience isn't enough to say with certainty that they did come from oblits, if you look at the track record between SM and Chaos, anything Chaos gets SM get something better.

Marines had no oblit equivalent in 5th.

Centurions have a different stat line than terminators as well.

I'm still not seeing this.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines had no oblit equivalent in 5th.

Centurions have a different stat line than terminators as well.

I'm still not seeing this.

I never said they came in 5th.

And nurgle oblits have the exact same stat line just not fearless and centurions have no invuln save.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines had no oblit equivalent in 5th.

Centurions have a different stat line than terminators as well.

I'm still not seeing this.

Considering their Grav Cannons virtually outperform anything an Obliterator can get out of his ass, you could say that Centurions are Obliterators + Terminators but better (and bigger) than both, in every single kind of way.

BTW I could swear Oblits were already featured in the 3.5 chaos dex (0-1 except for Iron Warriors), although their current model aesthetic dates from 4th/5th if I'm not mistaken.

Martel732 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
More power creep is not the answer.


Make termites cheaper, or give them a "terminator bolter" which has a bit of a kick.


I've always preferred combi bolters, only because they work better when deep striking.

More power creep is absolutely the answer. Until everything has crept up to where it has actual utility in the way the game is actually played. That means taking on scatbikes and WKs. If your unit can't do that, it's garbage in practice. Why do you think the Tau got D missiles? Because S10 railguns are popguns against WKs.

"Bolter" and "kick" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Heavy bolters are god awful now in 7th. This makes all weaker bolters even worse.

Except the whole reason we are at this situation is because of the stupid amounts of power creep to get people to play with the new toys.

Most people go on about how Terminators were good in second edition. Even in third, but they aren't good now because everything else has run ahead.

If GW actually kept everything in check instead of running off like a five year old on a sugar high, it would all be different.

I would just give them storm bolter compatible special ammo. Let them cost around 30 points and they are fine.

 welshhoppo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
More power creep is not the answer.


Make termites cheaper, or give them a "terminator bolter" which has a bit of a kick.


I've always preferred combi bolters, only because they work better when deep striking.

More power creep is absolutely the answer. Until everything has crept up to where it has actual utility in the way the game is actually played. That means taking on scatbikes and WKs. If your unit can't do that, it's garbage in practice. Why do you think the Tau got D missiles? Because S10 railguns are popguns against WKs.

"Bolter" and "kick" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Heavy bolters are god awful now in 7th. This makes all weaker bolters even worse.

Except the whole reason we are at this situation is because of the stupid amounts of power creep to get people to play with the new toys.

Most people go on about how Terminators were good in second edition. Even in third, but they aren't good now because everything else has run ahead.

If GW actually kept everything in check instead of running off like a five year old on a sugar high, it would all be different.

Most people would be wrong. Terminators were not good in 2nd. At least, not loyalist ones. Only chaos, because they had access to far superior weapons. They were terrible in third because plasma was made AP 2 and terminators got no save against it at all.

 welshhoppo wrote:
More power creep is not the answer.


Make termites cheaper, or give them a "terminator bolter" which has a bit of a kick.


I've always preferred combi bolters, only because they work better when deep striking.

Buffing Storm Bolters really isn't adding to power creep, if only because nobody wants to take Storm Bolters in the first place...

 welshhoppo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
More power creep is not the answer.


Make termites cheaper, or give them a "terminator bolter" which has a bit of a kick.


I've always preferred combi bolters, only because they work better when deep striking.

More power creep is absolutely the answer. Until everything has crept up to where it has actual utility in the way the game is actually played. That means taking on scatbikes and WKs. If your unit can't do that, it's garbage in practice. Why do you think the Tau got D missiles? Because S10 railguns are popguns against WKs.

"Bolter" and "kick" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Heavy bolters are god awful now in 7th. This makes all weaker bolters even worse.

Except the whole reason we are at this situation is because of the stupid amounts of power creep to get people to play with the new toys.

Most people go on about how Terminators were good in second edition. Even in third, but they aren't good now because everything else has run ahead.

If GW actually kept everything in check instead of running off like a five year old on a sugar high, it would all be different.

Unless you have a time machine, we have to play with the hand we've got, not the one we wish to have. As is, power creep is real, and has been out of the gates rampaging for a while now. Damage done. At this point, pulling up the things lagging behind is probably more efficient than trying to push all the creep back inside pandora's box.

Game Workshop needs to work on this from both sides:
Stop handing out more powerful toys with each Codex release, more so those already gifted
Strengthen weakened Units, or drop them outright if something better has already come along
Sadly this 'arms race' is something Marketing would love to keep around, on the belief it generates more sales as people jump from most powerful to most powerful.

Terminators are iconic, however, so they have to be given a useful position in an Army as they can't be dropped outright....

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Am I the only one that doesn't understand why loyalist Termins aators have elected to use Storm Bolters when Combi-Bolters are better in every way for Terminators? Is this another case of Loyalists being idiots?

Combi-bolters are better? Then I must have missed something.
I guess you mean combi-weapon which allow a single use of a specific shot like melta gun, plasma gun, or flamer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Have a look into 30k. There are no storm bolters yet.

Both equally garbage weapons to have on a 35-40pt model in the age of scatter bikes.

Buffing Terminator/Storm Bolters stats is not the way to - nerfing everything is imo. There's too much low AP weapons in the game, which affect not just Terminators but a whole heap of other things. Maybe the following ideas?

* Bladestorm on Shuriken Weapons becomes AP3
* All multishot AP2 weapons in general see a 5-10pt increase across the board, regardless of codex
* Grav gets nerfed to AP-, but gets AP2 on a To Wound of 6.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Buffing Terminator/Storm Bolters stats is not the way to - nerfing everything is imo. There's too much low AP weapons in the game, which affect not just Terminators but a whole heap of other things. Maybe the following ideas?

* Bladestorm on Shuriken Weapons becomes AP3
* All multishot AP2 weapons in general see a 5-10pt increase across the board, regardless of codex
* Grav gets nerfed to AP-, but gets AP2 on a To Wound of 6.

I agree with this guy, he shares my world view.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Buffing Terminator/Storm Bolters stats is not the way to - nerfing everything is imo. There's too much low AP weapons in the game, which affect not just Terminators but a whole heap of other things. Maybe the following ideas?

* Bladestorm on Shuriken Weapons becomes AP3
* All multishot AP2 weapons in general see a 5-10pt increase across the board, regardless of codex
* Grav gets nerfed to AP-, but gets AP2 on a To Wound of 6.

This would be the real way to fix a lot of problems with these units.

Maybe 8th edition, or age of Emperor afterwards.