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I don't think it's not taking any good units or formation. It's recognizing that you don't need to take all the max choices at all times.

vipoid wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Dark Eldar has some nifty formations, so it's mostly ok to use some Tau's.

Well, Coven have some nifty formations, and even then nothing to rival those in the 7.5 books.

Dark Eldar has precisely 1, and it's anything but nifty.

I guess you're talking about Dark Artisan, correct? Because that's one hell of a durable one - and Tau don't possess any ID weapon.
The others are more workable

Nope, because Dark Artisan is still a Coven formation.

Dark Eldar have one formation which is the Kabalite Raiding Party.

It consists of:
1 Archon
1 Court of the Archon
1 Unit of Incubi
6(!) Units of Warriors
1 Unit of Scourges
1 Unit of Hellions (ugh)
1 Ravager
Apart from the Archon, every unit that can take a dedicated transport must do so.

So, it has a minimum cost of 1065pts (with no special weapons or gear), forces you to take 6 troop choices that lack Objective Secured, and also requires that you take one of the worst units in the game.

What bonuses do you get?

- *If* the Night Fighting rules are in effect, troops get a 5+ Cover save on the first turn, non-troops get a 6+ cover save.

- The army gets +1 to PfP, but this bonus is lost immediately if the Archon dies.

So, one bonus only works on the first turn, and then only 50% of the time, and is pathetic anyway. The second bonus is only barely better, and depends entirely on your ability to protect a T3 character with useless armour and whose best invulnerable save is lost if you fail it.

And, of course, there's the fact that there's no flexibility whatsoever. Want a second Ravager or more Scourges? Well I hope you're ready to fork out another 1065+pts for a second formation.


*This* is the Dark Eldar formation. But, I can understand you not recognising it. For obvious reasons, you don't see it used much.

Yep, my DE friend doesn't use it as well. But I treat Covens and De as the same thing (I'm used to think about factions, not codexes )

 TheNewBlood wrote:

krodarklorr wrote:I wonder if GW-senpai will ever notice us...

Necrons already got noticed. Besides, at this rate GW will just literally resort to stealing Gundam designs for the next Tau release. Could be worse. Eldar will get Eva units!

I meant us as a customer base, but yeah.

I don't really see Covens and DE as the same thing. Great Waaagh!, Company of the Great Wolf both included all aspects of the Codex. Covens only catered for one part of the DE (including a very restrictive FOC detachment) and if you don't like using Covens units, then you're out of luck for formations, unless you dabble into Harlequins/Craftworlds.

Realspace Raiding Party is decent, at best.

KnuckleWolf,
7th Edition Rules not only encourage Players to take 'balance' into their own hands, but actually requires Players to agree on these things before the game.
Most people either play 'anything goes' or by their local groups own criteria, which is still likely to happen even if the Rules required even more agreements before game.

Well I also want AoS/C for simplicity and public rules so I'm still stuck waiting.

Yes, hate, hate, hate. Very productive.

Hate does nothing, and if you direct it at those who play, it makes it even less likely for anything to get done.

 vipoid wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Yes, you stand no chance if you have a pre-7.5 edition codex facing down full-strength 7.5 edition cheese. If the 7.5 edition player deons't bring the cheese, it's a much more even game.

But then where does that leave us? pre-Necron books are fine, so long as the 7.5 ones leave behind every good unit and Formation?

So for Necrons that, what, Scarabs, Annihilation Barges and most of the special characters. I think Eldar have Guardians and Howling Banshees.

yep pretty much - the combination of powerful units (especially with the Eldar) and massive formation bonuses beak the game.

I can;t see how is a problem to simply say no to 7.5 formations when the opponent can't field them due to an earlier codex that had not been leveled up to 7.5 edition.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Yes, you stand no chance if you have a pre-7.5 edition codex facing down full-strength 7.5 edition cheese. If the 7.5 edition player deons't bring the cheese, it's a much more even game.

But then where does that leave us? pre-Necron books are fine, so long as the 7.5 ones leave behind every good unit and Formation?

So for Necrons that, what, Scarabs, Annihilation Barges and most of the special characters. I think Eldar have Guardians and Howling Banshees.

yep pretty much - the combination of powerful units (especially with the Eldar) and massive formation bonuses beak the game.

I can;t see how is a problem to simply say no to 7.5 formations when the opponent can't field them due to an earlier codex that had not been leveled up to 7.5 edition.

Because those players want their toys. And don't want any possibility of actually being challenged by BA.

I just want to play my Tau from time to time with my Fire Warrior, Crisis Suit, Hammerhead, Pathfinder centered lists without being labeled as TFG for playing Tau. The Tau hate was slowly diminishing and now GW poured gasoline onto that flame so its going be a full fledge inferno of Tau hate again

 Tamwulf wrote:

alex0911 wrote:
Our competitive player TAU could be called god now? So far, he played versus a dark eldar, ultramarines and myself ( orks ). He didnt lose any games.. Moreover, he only lost a couple of wounds so far... Is it because we are bad? No. I played 2 different lists, the blitza bridgade and a bikestar / greentide ( with FNP and 5+ invu ). He blew up my 5 BATTLEWAGON 1st turn after my scout move and did table my greentide around turn 4....

Did you bring FIVE Battlewagons? If you did, no sympathy. Any player will bring something that can 1-shot a big target like that.

Seriously, ignore cover save is such a big deal and now they can also hit any vehicules from the rear?

For this formation only; And the units all have to be within 6" of the Ghostkeel for this to work. Otherwise, they have to use Markerlights.

These suits have 2+ coversave, 4W, T5, a million shots and once per game you can only snap shots them?

The Ghostkeel only has Stealth. If it takes the Stealth Drones, it gains Shrouded. Any attacks from greater then 12" away double the bonuses from cover (to a max of 2+). The Stealth Suits also only have Stealth. The Holophoton Countermeasures (can only make snapshots once per game against that model) is powerful; but it's only once per game. If you are closer then 12" to the Ghostkeel, it loses the double bonuses. To get the 2+ cover save, the Ghostkeel has to be in some kind of cover. The Stealth Battlesuits DO NOT GAIN THIS RULE while in this formation. Finally, all the weapons in this formation have a range of 18", except for the Cyclic Ion Raker of the Ghostkeel, which is 24".

If 3 units mixt up their shots they get +1 BS and they share the same markeur light?

Again, all the units that gain +1 BS have to be within 6" of the Ghostkeel. I have found no rule that says all the units in the Optimised Stealth Cadre can share a markerlight.

Even their LD can be 10 now, if your unit is in a 10'' range from the model.

The only rule I have found about this is called "Failure is not an option" and it's only on Etherals and it's for units within 12".

They can use their markeurs lights on the overwatch and use them to boost up their BS ? Having more then half your army overwatching wasnt enough i guess.

They had this rule in the last codex. However, a unit can't shoot a markerlight and then use that markerlight token in it's shooting attack. The token has to already be on the charging unit or another unit with supporting fire has to shoot the charging unit first.

I know, you can ALWAYS find a tailor list to deal with it but WH40K wasnt suppose to be about making a perfect list to counter 1 person...

Ill try to beat him with my 5 flyrants / 3 mawlocs list but i feel like it will end up at the same result...

Good luck guys....

You played the list once and tried to deal with it the same way you have dealt with all other opponents, and you lost. No big deal! It happens. The Tau are the newest army to be updated, and have some new tricks/formations that players will have to deal with. Play against the list a couple more times before you really start to despair. The Tau have zero defense against psychic powers. A couple weird boys could put some serious hurt on the Tau. Nobs on bikes with a Techboy and Forcefield is good against just about everything in the game. The Tau also collapse in close combat. Much like all other assault armies in 7th ed, the trick is to get there.

No offense but if you still think orkz stand a chance versus new tau you obviously never played them haha

I know bringning 5 BW seems stupid but hey, my opponent tho i would play my tyranids and somehow he did manage to kill ALL of them at turn 1 with half his shoots. Scouting 5 BW is actually a REALLY good formation.

I know tau arent great in WS but you do have to GET THERE if you wanna use that advantage... However. not much can actually get close. A bikestar wouldnt work out because makerlights will ignore your 3+ cover save after turbo boosting. Of course, some of them will make it but then all he has to do his sacrifice some units and run the rest far away ( tau are actually very mobile even if people dont think so ! )

Thank you tho, ill let you know about how my tyranids did !

alex0911 wrote:


No offense but if you still think orkz stand a chance versus new tau you obviously never played them haha

I know bringning 5 BW seems stupid but hey, my opponent tho i would play my tyranids and somehow he did manage to kill ALL of them at turn 1 with half his shoots. Scouting 5 BW is actually a REALLY good formation.

I know tau arent great in WS but you do have to GET THERE if you wanna use that advantage... However. not much can actually get close. A bikestar wouldnt work out because makerlights will ignore your 3+ cover save after turbo boosting. Of course, some of them will make it but then all he has to do his sacrifice some units and run the rest far away ( tau are actually very mobile even if people dont think so ! )

Thank you tho, ill let you know about how my tyranids did !

Let me ask you this: Do you bring 5 Battlewagons in every list? And every time you play with five Battlewagons (over 500 points no less- so 1/3 of your army at 1500 points), you lose them in every game... then there is nothing I can say to dissuade you from how powerful Tau can be against large targets like that. Have you thought about foot slogging 500 points worth of boys instead? That's 80 more Orks in your list, and unless your Tau opponent makes an army designed for anti-infantry, you will win.

One of the points you brought up was making an army specifically designed to take out one other army. If you always bring five Battlewagons to your games, and you always infiltrate them with 20 Boys in each one, then maybe the Tau player was counting on it and made a list to destroy your five Battlewagons? Do you always infiltrate the Battlewagons, thus placing them in full range of the entire Tau fire line on the first turn? And presumably each Battlewagon had 20 Orks inside so that each time the Tau player popped a Battlewagon, you lost at least 8-10 Orks, and then failed your pinning test so there they are? Is that about the way your games go? If so, then yeah, I can see why you would hate the Tau so much that you are willing to shelve your Orks and play Bugs- which everyone at your venue knows you have flying MC's in it. Guess what? If the Tau player knows that to, then he'll make a list designed to counter your flying MC's- and if there is one army in the game that can counter flying MC's, it's the Tau.

Again, I say change your Ork list with WeirdBoys, Painboys, and Nobs on bikes and as many foot slogging Orks as you can cram in it and give it another go. Only this time, just tell the Tau player you are bringing Orks.

There is only three armies that scare my Tau- Eldar Jetbike armies, suicide grav weapon drop pod Space Marines, and foot slogging Orks backed up with bikes, Painboys, and WeirdBoys. I could extend that to Bugs as well, except all the bug players I know run big flying MC's that Tau have no problem with. Now if it was a foot slogging horde of 'Gaunts... I relish every time an opponent sinks a whole lot of points into one unit, because Tau excel at removing single high point models/units. Bring a few models to the table worth 1/4-1/3 of your army and you better believe I'm gonna take them out ASAP. Bring five units of 30 Boys with a Painboy for 230 points and do that five times for 150 Orks and 5 Painboys for 1,150 points total and those Orks will make it into close combat. Then you might be saying the Tau are not that good after all.

 Tamwulf wrote:

alex0911 wrote:


No offense but if you still think orkz stand a chance versus new tau you obviously never played them haha

I know bringning 5 BW seems stupid but hey, my opponent tho i would play my tyranids and somehow he did manage to kill ALL of them at turn 1 with half his shoots. Scouting 5 BW is actually a REALLY good formation.

I know tau arent great in WS but you do have to GET THERE if you wanna use that advantage... However. not much can actually get close. A bikestar wouldnt work out because makerlights will ignore your 3+ cover save after turbo boosting. Of course, some of them will make it but then all he has to do his sacrifice some units and run the rest far away ( tau are actually very mobile even if people dont think so ! )

Thank you tho, ill let you know about how my tyranids did !

Let me ask you this: Do you bring 5 Battlewagons in every list? And every time you play with five Battlewagons (over 500 points no less- so 1/3 of your army at 1500 points), you lose them in every game... then there is nothing I can say to dissuade you from how powerful Tau can be against large targets like that. Have you thought about foot slogging 500 points worth of boys instead? That's 80 more Orks in your list, and unless your Tau opponent makes an army designed for anti-infantry, you will win.

One of the points you brought up was making an army specifically designed to take out one other army. If you always bring five Battlewagons to your games, and you always infiltrate them with 20 Boys in each one, then maybe the Tau player was counting on it and made a list to destroy your five Battlewagons? Do you always infiltrate the Battlewagons, thus placing them in full range of the entire Tau fire line on the first turn? And presumably each Battlewagon had 20 Orks inside so that each time the Tau player popped a Battlewagon, you lost at least 8-10 Orks, and then failed your pinning test so there they are? Is that about the way your games go? If so, then yeah, I can see why you would hate the Tau so much that you are willing to shelve your Orks and play Bugs- which everyone at your venue knows you have flying MC's in it. Guess what? If the Tau player knows that to, then he'll make a list designed to counter your flying MC's- and if there is one army in the game that can counter flying MC's, it's the Tau.

Again, I say change your Ork list with WeirdBoys, Painboys, and Nobs on bikes and as many foot slogging Orks as you can cram in it and give it another go. Only this time, just tell the Tau player you are bringing Orks.

There is only three armies that scare my Tau- Eldar Jetbike armies, suicide grav weapon drop pod Space Marines, and foot slogging Orks backed up with bikes, Painboys, and WeirdBoys. I could extend that to Bugs as well, except all the bug players I know run big flying MC's that Tau have no problem with. Now if it was a foot slogging horde of 'Gaunts... I relish every time an opponent sinks a whole lot of points into one unit, because Tau excel at removing single high point models/units. Bring a few models to the table worth 1/4-1/3 of your army and you better believe I'm gonna take them out ASAP. Bring five units of 30 Boys with a Painboy for 230 points and do that five times for 150 Orks and 5 Painboys for 1,150 points total and those Orks will make it into close combat. Then you might be saying the Tau are not that good after all.

1-BW with scout does make sure you put all the boys in ennemy lines which is often worth the trade, especially with tau

2-Why you focus so much on these 5 BW? Its one of my list but i also can run a bikestar or a greentide with FNP and big mek to give a 5+ invu...

3-I think its how tau players play it, they make tailor list instead of a list which could fight everything. Have fun in tournement

4-Ill probably make a mawloc / lictor list versus tau since he will max out skyfire

5-Thanks i did already try a greentide with FNP all around but maybe you dont realize your fire power, my low thougness and my low mobility... All you have to do is stay far away, shoot and move away from me. 36'' range is better then 6'' mouvement.

6-Drop pods armies are actually grey versus tau, i know it.

7-Ill try weirdboy, which i havent take yet versus tau.

8-Tau player didnt even make a list for my orks. If he does, it will get even worst you know it right?

9-Stick to your opinion but 99% of the people around here and my local meta are still gonna think that tau have a WAY better codex then orks.

10-Check out incoming tournements.

Vankraken wrote:I just want to play my Tau from time to time with my Fire Warrior, Crisis Suit, Hammerhead, Pathfinder centered lists without being labeled as TFG for playing Tau. The Tau hate was slowly diminishing and now GW poured gasoline onto that flame so its going be a full fledge inferno of Tau hate again

Just play them. If people bother you, play with others. Let them watch your games and see how you don't use the best things Tau has.

alex0911 wrote:
4-Ill probably make a mawloc / lictor list versus tau since he will max out skyfire

Maybe you shouldn't tell hiim what army you're bringing in? If I knew what army my opponent will bring, unconsciously I'd pick better options against that army.

 Vankraken wrote:
I just want to play my Tau from time to time with my Fire Warrior, Crisis Suit, Hammerhead, Pathfinder centered lists without being labeled as TFG for playing Tau. The Tau hate was slowly diminishing and now GW poured gasoline onto that flame so its going be a full fledge inferno of Tau hate again

Honestly, they don't seem bad outside of formations.
Don't use formations and I can't imagine anyone getting mad. Some people just hate Tau despite how cool they can be.
Bonus points if you use Kroot

I'll play against a tau cheese. But I'm taking my wraith host + rev against it. I wonder if he will make it past turn 2...

WIth a Cohort Cybernetica, void sheild gen, 2 5-man vanguard squads, 2 neutron laser dunecrawlers, and a full squad of Infiltrators i was able to give new tau a run for its money. Took down the Riptide and the stormsurge, my Katastar weathered the full brunt of the D missiles and even reflected one with only the loss of a single bot. poor rolling got me in the end when I couldnt get my void shields back up to protect my onagers from massed fusion suits.

Overall I'm not too impressed. The Ghostkeel went down like a punk to my infiltrators, stormsurge spend the entire game trying to bust my Cohort, Riptide got assaulted by my dominus (by himself) and then swept. Now that i look back at it, had i just went about wiped out his marker drones and commander, I might have pulled a victory out of it with having cover saves again. *shrugs*

Mind you this was just a friendly game so its more me giving my two cent than gauging how effective Tau are in a competitive enviroment.

 Tamwulf wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

You played the list once and tried to deal with it the same way you have dealt with all other opponents, and you lost. No big deal! It happens. The Tau are the newest army to be updated, and have some new tricks/formations that players will have to deal with. Play against the list a couple more times before you really start to despair. The Tau have zero defense against psychic powers. A couple weird boys could put some serious hurt on the Tau. Nobs on bikes with a Techboy and Forcefield is good against just about everything in the game. The Tau also collapse in close combat. Much like all other assault armies in 7th ed, the trick is to get there.

Easier said than done. getting my (ravenwing) librarian(s) in range to do something is no simple feat. Ravenwing is built to rely on cover and GW passes out "ignores cover" to Tau like candy on Halloween.

I think everyone knows what the Tau are supposed to be weak against. Its just much harder to do on the board than on paper.

 Ir0njack wrote:
WIth a Cohort Cybernetica, void sheild gen, 2 5-man vanguard squads, 2 neutron laser dunecrawlers, and a full squad of Infiltrators i was able to give new tau a run for its money. Took down the Riptide and the stormsurge, my Katastar weathered the full brunt of the D missiles and even reflected one with only the loss of a single bot. poor rolling got me in the end when I couldnt get my void shields back up to protect my onagers from massed fusion suits.

Overall I'm not too impressed. The Ghostkeel went down like a punk to my infiltrators, stormsurge spend the entire game trying to bust my Cohort, Riptide got assaulted by my dominus (by himself) and then swept. Now that i look back at it, had i just went about wiped out his marker drones and commander, I might have pulled a victory out of it with having cover saves again. *shrugs*

Mind you this was just a friendly game so its more me giving my two cent than gauging how effective Tau are in a competitive enviroment.

Sounds unoptimized of a Tau list. Ghostkeels are one of those units where a lone one is okay, two is amazing, and three is just insane. Since they can use their ECM three times a game instead of one and it affects the whole unit. Like I said it seems like your opponent isn't a very good Tau player or on purpose didn't bring the cheese. You almost want three ghostkeels in a power list as opposed to any less. With target locks and stimulant injectors. Even better if they're stuck in an optimized stealth cadre which ignores cover automatically and fires on BS4-5 automatically and always hits rear armor.

Tau don't have ++2, no crazy BB interaction, no fast moving msu scoring troops, no psychic powers and they actualy can fail a Ld test. With formations they are ok. Without formations they are, in my opinion, nothing special. They beat bad armies like for example IG, and they beat them bad. But so do the good armies, who beat the bad armies and tau too. Unless GW comes up with some uber DLC or LTO formation like skyhammer, I don't see them worth of hate.

Makumba wrote:
Tau don't have ++2, no crazy BB interaction, no fast moving msu scoring troops, no psychic powers and they actualy can fail a Ld test. With formations they are ok. Without formations they are, in my opinion, nothing special. They beat bad armies like for example IG, and they beat them bad. But so do the good armies, who beat the bad armies and tau too. Unless GW comes up with some uber DLC or LTO formation like skyhammer, I don't see them worth of hate.

Exactly non formation armies are pointless now if your looking at it from a purely competitive way, however their formations have yet o be tested. First ITC tournament the new dex will be in is on the 13th I believe. We'll see just how competitive new Tau is. Looking aat them without their formations they are alright and not ass good as time has moved on and power creep set in. Upper Middling tier without formations. With formations though? That remains to be seen.

Don't hate anything, they're tiny plastic spacemen and they can't hurt you in real life. Yeah there's imbalance, and that sucks, but if it's a pick up game just say no, and unless you're in harder tournaments on the reg you won't run into too much overpowered malarkey. 40k has always been best played with your pals where you make an agreement before the game, and that holds true now more than ever.

 Gamgee wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Tau don't have ++2, no crazy BB interaction, no fast moving msu scoring troops, no psychic powers and they actualy can fail a Ld test. With formations they are ok. Without formations they are, in my opinion, nothing special. They beat bad armies like for example IG, and they beat them bad. But so do the good armies, who beat the bad armies and tau too. Unless GW comes up with some uber DLC or LTO formation like skyhammer, I don't see them worth of hate.

Exactly non formation armies are pointless now if your looking at it from a purely competitive way, however their formations have yet o be tested. First ITC tournament the new dex will be in is on the 13th I believe. We'll see just how competitive new Tau is. Looking aat them without their formations they are alright and not ass good as time has moved on and power creep set in. Upper Middling tier without formations. With formations though? That remains to be seen.

As discussed the problem is that there are now simply two types of armies in 40k - the current 7.5 codex's with game breaking formations combined with good to OP units and everything else.

alex0911 wrote:
Our competitive player TAU could be called god now? So far, he played versus a dark eldar, ultramarines and myself ( orks ). He didnt lose any games.. Moreover, he only lost a couple of wounds so far... Is it because we are bad? No. I played 2 different lists, the blitza bridgade and a bikestar / greentide ( with FNP and 5+ invu ). He blew up my 5 BATTLEWAGON 1st turn after my scout move and did table my greentide around turn 4....

Seriously, ignore cover save is such a big deal and now they can also hit any vehicules from the rear?

These suits have 2+ coversave, 4W, T5, a million shots and once per game you can only snap shots them?

If 3 units mixt up their shots they get +1 BS and they share the same markeur light?

Even their LD can be 10 now, if your unit is in a 10'' range from the model.

They can use their markeurs lights on the overwatch and use them to boost up their BS ? Having more then half your army overwatching wasnt enough i guess.

I know, you can ALWAYS find a tailor list to deal with it but WH40K wasnt suppose to be about making a perfect list to counter 1 person...

Ill try to beat him with my 5 flyrants / 3 mawlocs list but i feel like it will end up at the same result...

Good luck guys....

Attack Tau in the following ways:

1. Attack their Leadership. Psychic Screa,. tank shocks and anything else that forces the checks.

2. Dont bother trying to outshoot them. You rush them and losses be damned. they canot fight.

Any tactics for armies that don't have access to scream and that can't melee?

Makumba wrote:
Any tactics for armies that don't have access to scream and that can't melee?

Kill the makerlights at all costs. That's the most basic one. However up against new tau that's less effective since they can just coordinate three units to gain +1BS and count as one single attack.

 Gamgee wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Any tactics for armies that don't have access to scream and that can't melee?

Kill the makerlights at all costs. That's the most basic one. However up against new tau that's less effective since they can just coordinate three units to gain +1BS and count as one single attack.

Yeah +1 BS is really good haha

Sorry Knuckle, Age of Sigmar will ruin 40k like it ruined Fantasy and would probably cause GWs demise.

130 points for a unit that has to be up close and personal to use its real AT firepower plus a 180 point tax to go with it with similar personal space issues with screwy weapons? I liked the idea of the Stealth cadre and love the idea of stealth suits, buts its too costly for too few benefits.

I would complain more about combos involving the Infiltration Cadre and first turn mass Deep strikes.

In your example you had two well known inefficient codices and one good one, but you didn't mention what the marine codex even used.

@Col. Dash, If it kills the game in the process so be it. Personal opinion here and all. For me, the game is worthless except for cool models. The only people I see getting into it are poorly informed gamers who don't know too not waste their time on it for an off its useless frustration. The only other guys I see but it are nostalgia guys who stay basically for nostalgia or Imperial like dogma. So if it gets a whole new life after a rewrite, awesome, new lease in life and all that. If not, well it's been laboring for breath for awhile and it was time to pull the cord.

Brother SRM wrote:Don't hate anything, they're tiny plastic spacemen and they can't hurt you in real life.

Chaos and Dark Eldar models would disagree with you