Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Nalydyn wrote:

I love the DE players in this thread complaining. DE is a weak army, any of the power-builds will stomp it.

Yeah, sounds like DE have nothing to complain about.

Played my first game vs the new Codex, it was short and brutal, he got one turn of shooting and didn't manage to do enough damage before his riptide and broadsides were tarpitted, both his battlesuit units were engaged with my black knights and his pathfinders were shot to bits by combined fire, as much as my ravenwing rely on cover saves to live, he just couldn't deal with so many units coming at him with scout and good placement to block Los, no overwatch really hurt him as my dark shrouds denied it.

His army was
Buffmander.
Normal commander with plasma and missile pod
6 suits
6 suits
Tide
Tide
Tide
Broadsides
Broadsides
Broadsides
Pathfinders
Stormsurge
Stealth suits X 2

Not sure about his formations, but he was using a couple.

I used
Sammy
Command squad
Black knights
4X 5 bikes, dual plasma
3 attack bike and vengeance
3 typhoons and shroud
Shroud alone
Dark talon
Nephilim

We both had More (3k game) but that's the gyst.

 vipoid wrote:

 Nalydyn wrote:

I love the DE players in this thread complaining. DE is a weak army, any of the power-builds will stomp it.

Yeah, sounds like DE have nothing to complain about.

Yeah its the "screw other people I have new stuff" that really brings joy.....................

this just reinforces the problem of 7th and earlier codex versus the new 7.5 codexes.

But it's Kay DE can spam one unit and it takes a while to kill all of them so you can win if you draw the right Random Cards O Randomness and win.

100% balanced and fine quit crying and L2P, sincerely everyone who's already got their new toys.

 Gamgee wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Any tactics for armies that don't have access to scream and that can't melee?

Kill the makerlights at all costs. That's the most basic one. However up against new tau that's less effective since they can just coordinate three units to gain +1BS and count as one single attack.

But be careful of that if they're running the Infiltration Cadre formation in which destroying a unit from the formation causes all of the Tau players reserves to come in automatically on their next turn.

 Jancoran wrote:

Sunstripe wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
Don't hate Tau... hate "ignores cover"

They are practically synonymous.

Yet... Not. The REAL problem is how many things get a "cover save generator" which hs become a crutch instead of the situational "cool thing" it was sort of meant to be. Now Cover saves have become a major thing with armies and suddenly they all feel entitled to some way to get them and the escalation on it is pretty marked.

So ignores cover was the natural nerf to an out of control proliferation of that crutch and it takes resources for the Tau to do it. So i mean its not like its free. i think people just feel too entitled when its hard to even justify how often cover saves are generated!

Actually, the two are synonymous.

The big thing for Tau was always that while having fairly little in the way of 'natural' Ignores Cover weaponry(Flamers, Smart Missile System, ABFL, and probably at least one more I'm not thinking of) they could make it so that they would gain Ignores Cover on practically anything via Markerlights. That made Markerlight Tokens important.

Then they added the MSS, which is a big part of the "Buffmander" nonsense, and all of a sudden a unit could have a Buffmander with it who opted not to fire...and grants his unit Ignores Cover without them spending Markerlights.

Fast-forward to today, and now "Coordinated Fire" has just made Markerlights even more useless for anything beyond Destroyer Missiles and the +1BS/token.

the_scotsman wrote:
Well to be fair, they're only shooting the rear of vehicles if you take the formation, and isn't that 1 ghost keel squad 2 stealth suits? Ghost keels may be great but stealth suits sure aren't.

I played against this formation a little while ago with my guard list and I was actually quite pleased with how well it went. I did have a Vindicare assassin and Earthshaker carriage which carried a whole hell of a lot of hurt for those cover save loving types, (only wished it was a Medusa so I could've instant deathed the ghost keel). The Ghostkeel was a pain, but knocking out the stealth suits was easy and then the formation has no benefits...

Actully ghost always get buff.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:
People always say that tau are so weak in melee, i dont know how many models ive taken out in melee with stealth suits and crisis suits. Maybe its just lucky rolls, but maybe not

I lost a unit of 6 screamers against 3 broadsides and 2 shield drones. So yes, they can kick behind

Stop the hate! Feel the love! PEACE!

 Wolfnid420 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfnid420 wrote:


Ah but it is with the Stealth formation, also +1 BS, and I am loving it. Having bs4 stealth suits back is so nice. I was so mad when they took away the +1BS wargear option from back in the day. Mostly used it on stealth suits, so for me, this formation is just awesomeness as xv25's become so viable.

I own 24 stealthuits. So the entire situation is pleasing to me regardless.

'AT a BOY!!! lol ive never tried to run more than 12, especially since they took away their main wargear option IMO (they often in weird places away from markerlight help and I enjoyed a better chance for the fusion to land).

The Advanced Targetting System on Stealth suit is gold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:


The big thing for Tau was always that while having fairly little in the way of 'natural' Ignores Cover weaponry(Flamers, Smart Missile System, ABFL, and probably at least one more I'm not thinking of) they could make it so that they would gain Ignores Cover on practically anything via Markerlights. That made Markerlight Tokens important.

Then they added the MSS, which is a big part of the "Buffmander" nonsense, and all of a sudden a unit could have a Buffmander with it who opted not to fire...and grants his unit Ignores Cover without them spending Markerlights.

Fast-forward to today, and now "Coordinated Fire" has just made Markerlights even more useless for anything beyond Destroyer Missiles and the +1BS/token.

yet.. Thats 177 points of a guy who doesnt fire. to do that. And this is cheap? I think I cant sympathize with this point of view. You can build cheaper buffmanders but mine is 177 for various reasons and even if he was like 120, thats a TON of points for what IG can hand out with an order and a Psyker can hand out for 50 points.

So I dont really sympathize with this POV. Its not free.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


The big thing for Tau was always that while having fairly little in the way of 'natural' Ignores Cover weaponry(Flamers, Smart Missile System, ABFL, and probably at least one more I'm not thinking of) they could make it so that they would gain Ignores Cover on practically anything via Markerlights. That made Markerlight Tokens important.

Then they added the MSS, which is a big part of the "Buffmander" nonsense, and all of a sudden a unit could have a Buffmander with it who opted not to fire...and grants his unit Ignores Cover without them spending Markerlights.

Fast-forward to today, and now "Coordinated Fire" has just made Markerlights even more useless for anything beyond Destroyer Missiles and the +1BS/token.

yet.. Thats 177 points of a guy who doesnt fire. to do that. And this is cheap? I think I cant sympathize with this point of view. You can build cheaper buffmanders but mine is 177 for various reasons and even if he was like 120, thats a TON of points for what IG can hand out with an order and a Psyker can hand out for 50 points.

So I dont really sympathize with this POV. Its not free.

Sure, the Buffmander isn't free, and he can't use his BS5. But by forgoing shooting, he's providing free re-rolls/ignores cover to the rest of his unit, which cna now be up to nine Crisis Suits without Farsight. Split Fire lets them target other units while keeping the same special rules. Coordinated Fire appears to let the entire army benefit from the Buffmander, both while firing at one target and split-firing at others.

Imperial Guard orders and psykers are not early on the same level. you have to pass tests, and they can only benefit one unit, and they only provide one benefit at a time, not several. I don't know what has convinced you that IG are powerful, because whatever it was is patently false.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


The big thing for Tau was always that while having fairly little in the way of 'natural' Ignores Cover weaponry(Flamers, Smart Missile System, ABFL, and probably at least one more I'm not thinking of) they could make it so that they would gain Ignores Cover on practically anything via Markerlights. That made Markerlight Tokens important.

Then they added the MSS, which is a big part of the "Buffmander" nonsense, and all of a sudden a unit could have a Buffmander with it who opted not to fire...and grants his unit Ignores Cover without them spending Markerlights.

Fast-forward to today, and now "Coordinated Fire" has just made Markerlights even more useless for anything beyond Destroyer Missiles and the +1BS/token.

yet.. Thats 177 points of a guy who doesnt fire. to do that. And this is cheap? I think I cant sympathize with this point of view. You can build cheaper buffmanders but mine is 177 for various reasons and even if he was like 120, thats a TON of points for what IG can hand out with an order and a Psyker can hand out for 50 points.

So I dont really sympathize with this POV. Its not free.

Sure, the Buffmander isn't free, and he can't use his BS5. But by forgoing shooting, he's providing free re-rolls/ignores cover to the rest of his unit, which cna now be up to nine Crisis Suits without Farsight. Split Fire lets them target other units while keeping the same special rules. Coordinated Fire appears to let the entire army benefit from the Buffmander, both while firing at one target and split-firing at others.

Imperial Guard orders and psykers are not early on the same level. you have to pass tests, and they can only benefit one unit, and they only provide one benefit at a time, not several. I don't know what has convinced you that IG are powerful, because whatever it was is patently false.

Don't.
Trust me, just don't.

Akiasura wrote:

Don't.
Trust me, just don't.

Oh believe me, I read the thread you're referring to. What's next, dude will start saying that blob guard are a hard-counter to new Tau, and Forge World makes IG overpowered?

Just remember: "Should" is not an argument, no matter how much logical sense it makes!

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Just remember: "Should" is not an argument, no matter how much logical sense it makes!

Should is never an argument. Should implies how things might be in an ideal world, not how they actually are. Arguments require facts and should refers to fantasies.

Take a White Scars character with the new 20pt artefact that allows him and any unit he is attached to Ignore Cover

Would that be useful with Heavy Weapon Teams maybe?

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Sure, the Buffmander isn't free, and he can't use his BS5. But by forgoing shooting, he's providing free re-rolls/ignores cover to the rest of his unit, which cna now be up to nine Crisis Suits without Farsight. Split Fire lets them target other units while keeping the same special rules. Coordinated Fire appears to let the entire army benefit from the Buffmander, both while firing at one target and split-firing at others.

Imperial Guard orders and psykers are not early on the same level. you have to pass tests, and they can only benefit one unit, and they only provide one benefit at a time, not several. I don't know what has convinced you that IG are powerful, because whatever it was is patently false.

You agree and then "Yeah but" me. The point is... its not free. So whining about an upgrade someone paid for is kinda... uh... Well it doesnt seem to make much sense. And that you can REMOVe that upgrade is relevant too, much like removing IG Command groups.

I dont give a rip if you agree or disagree that Astra Militarum are competitive. Thats a matter of opinion. But that has nothing to do with the Tau having to pay a healthy chunk for this. They do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Take a White Scars character with the new 20pt artefact that allows him and any unit he is attached to Ignore Cover

Would that be useful with Heavy Weapon Teams maybe?

Yeah, exactly... This and other examples are why The Tau are not the villains for having it. I think a sense of perspective is helpful and the Space puppies already DIDNT need the help on this. They were doing fine without it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Don't.
Trust me, just don't.

Oh believe me, I read the thread you're referring to. What's next, dude will start saying that blob guard are a hard-counter to new Tau, and Forge World makes IG overpowered?

Just remember: "Should" is not an argument, no matter how much logical sense it makes!

Should isn't an argument. Try winning a debate with it. Lol.

Arkaine wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Just remember: "Should" is not an argument, no matter how much logical sense it makes!

Should is never an argument. Should implies how things might be in an ideal world, not how they actually are. Arguments require facts and should refers to fantasies.

Without an ideal world, we have nothing with which to compare the real world.

For example, the Wraithknight by all measures should cost about 150 points more than it currently does. Grav should not be a one-click removal device for most any unit in the game. Canoptek Wraiths should cost more considering that they have T5 and the ability to gain Res Protocols. GW should FAQ thier rules and spend more than five minutes considering their wording.

Considering that you claim to have me on your Ignore list, you're awfully consistent about responding to my posts and PMing me...you should stop being so Tsundere, before it gets embarrassing...

Jancoran wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Sure, the Buffmander isn't free, and he can't use his BS5. But by forgoing shooting, he's providing free re-rolls/ignores cover to the rest of his unit, which cna now be up to nine Crisis Suits without Farsight. Split Fire lets them target other units while keeping the same special rules. Coordinated Fire appears to let the entire army benefit from the Buffmander, both while firing at one target and split-firing at others.

Imperial Guard orders and psykers are not early on the same level. you have to pass tests, and they can only benefit one unit, and they only provide one benefit at a time, not several. I don't know what has convinced you that IG are powerful, because whatever it was is patently false.

You agree and then "Yeah but" me. The point is... its not free. So whining about an upgrade someone paid for is kinda... uh... Well it doesnt seem to make much sense. And that you can REMOVe that upgrade is relevant too, much like removing IG Command groups.

I dont give a rip if you agree or disagree that Astra Militarum are competitive. Thats a matter of opinion. But that has nothing to do with the Tau having to pay a healthy chunk for this. They do.

Eldar have to pay for Wraithknights and Scatbikers. That doesn't make either of those units less overpowered or undercosted. Grav-amps are an upgrade yo have to pay for, and that doesn't make Centstar any less broken. You can (statistically) kill the components of a Screamerstar, but that doesn't make 2+ re-rollable any less broken.

You take my acknowledging of one point as a blanket invalidation of my argument. You're going to have to do better than that; try refuting my whole argument rather than cherry-picking out of the premise.

Can someone who knows the game really well from a competitive point tell me if the Tau are really overpowered? I was always a casual gamer, more into modelling&painting. I haven't won a single game since ages - I am not only a bad player, but I also use weird army lists of units I like (full casual!) instead of going for the strong meta lists.

Anyway, even then 95% of people I play with go apeshit over the fact I'm playing Tau, claiming it's a "powergaming" and overpowered army. The atmosphere instantly becomes dense and after I lose (I lose like 90% of my games) some guys I played with even said "I finally got what I deserve for playing Tau".

Do you have similar experiences/reactions? Because sometimes I wonder if there are any normal people playing this game for fun, I seem to run into either some creepy nerds who look like they'd murder you if you win and barely talk to you afterwards, or kids who break every rule possible and sometimes ragequit the game after bad rolls or if they favourite unit is destroyed. Sometimes I even have to ingore someone breaking/making up rules or bringing more points into a game if I want to finish it... there's only a couple of people I can have a normal game with.

Kahnawake

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Without an ideal world, we have nothing with which to compare the real world.

Okay Plato, let's stick with the real world and not venture off on tangential worlds of ideal forms.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
For example, the Wraithknight by all measures should cost about 150 points more than it currently does. Grav should not be a one-click removal device for most any unit in the game. Canoptek Wraiths should cost more considering that they have T5 and the ability to gain Res Protocols. GW should FAQ thier rules and spend more than five minutes considering their wording.

Those are theories, a conclusion in and of themselves. You use arguments to support your theories, you do not use theories as supporting arguments.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Considering that you claim to have me on your Ignore list, you're awfully consistent about responding to my posts and PMing me...you should stop being so Tsundere, before it gets embarrassing...

Citation needed. Never claimed such. In your words, you're confusing "one CAAC for another'. Likewise, I pmed you a reply ONCE because the topic had gone three pages past that point. I could easily just post your embarrassment here as I have no qualms about sharing.

 Kahnawake wrote:
Can someone who knows the game really well from a competitive point tell me if the Tau are really overpowered?

In general, no, they are not overpowered compared to all of the other 7th edition codecies post-Necron.

In many people's world's, they are overpowered because Tau absolutely murder deathstars, which is what most people actually play. And people cry about their superunit being annihilated by an army designed to do that to super units.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kahnawake wrote:
Can someone who knows the game really well from a competitive point tell me if the Tau are really overpowered?

In general, no, they are not overpowered compared to all of the other 7th edition codecies post-Necron.

In many people's world's, they are overpowered because Tau absolutely murder deathstars, which is what most people actually play. And people cry about their superunit being annihilated by an army designed to do that to super units.

Well, I agree and disagree with this.

Without formations, I think Tau are top of the middle tier. They aren't up there with the necrons, SM, Eldar, etc etc that we all know.
With formations, I think they can compete with the best of the best. The formations are really amazing.

Granted this isn't different from the other top tier dexes...they all like a formation or two. I just think tau gain a lot from the formations compared to the other dexes, but their original power level is lower.

The problem with the Buffmander is not that it is OP (although it may be that), but that it is commonly considered an obligatory choice, and obligatory choices are dull.

Kahnawake wrote:Can someone who knows the game really well from a competitive point tell me if the Tau are really overpowered? I was always a casual gamer, more into modelling&painting. I haven't won a single game since ages - I am not only a bad player, but I also use weird army lists of units I like (full casual!) instead of going for the strong meta lists.

Anyway, even then 95% of people I play with go apeshit over the fact I'm playing Tau, claiming it's a "powergaming" and overpowered army. The atmosphere instantly becomes dense and after I lose (I lose like 90% of my games) some guys I played with even said "I finally got what I deserve for playing Tau".

Do you have similar experiences/reactions? Because sometimes I wonder if there are any normal people playing this game for fun, I seem to run into either some creepy nerds who look like they'd murder you if you win and barely talk to you afterwards, or kids who break every rule possible and sometimes ragequit the game after bad rolls or if they favourite unit is destroyed. Sometimes I even have to ingore someone breaking/making up rules or bringing more points into a game if I want to finish it... there's only a couple of people I can have a normal game with.

Kahnawake

These people you play with must be very cool gents!

Tau were really OP back in 6th right after Eldar and Space Marines releases, because both were Battle-brothers with Tau. Imagine Eldar psykery aiding Tau shooting? Or Space Marines having a Buffmander among Gravcents? This left a sour taste in the mouths of everyone who fought that. Entire units were deleted in few rolls. Tau itself was quite well and balanced, but when mixed up with those 2...

After 7th kicked in, Tau lost their both Battle-brothers. This dimmed their strenght so much that, outside the Firebase Support Cadre formation (the new version is weaker), Tau was barely seen in the big top tournaments' higher positions. They became part of the middle ground guys.

With this new codex, the Formations allow Tau to fight with the big guys again. However, only 6 codexes are in the new Decurion-style format (Necrons, Eldar, Space Marines, Dark Angels, Khorne Daemonkin and Tau), while the rest doesn't - and this uplifts these 6 codexes in power to the point it could be nigh-impossible to win against them, if you use the older codexes. It can be done, but very hardly.

Sadly, much of the aforementioned sour taste is still rampant on many players, to the point they start behavioring like you said. If I were you, I'd focus playing only the normal dudes, unless you're up to the challenge of changing the others' views - by holding off your best cards until you notice what's the 'power level' of your group; in other words, how competitive they are.

And there's, of course, those who hate Tau fluff. These are even harder to manage. I'd not even try.

Alcibiades wrote:
The problem with the Buffmander is not that it is OP (although it may be that), but that it is commonly considered an obligatory choice, and obligatory choices are dull.

Well, not strictly that it is an "obligatory choice" but that it is such a joke of an obligatory choice. It made a mockery of an entire game mechanic beforehand, and now it does so even more.

 Vector Strike wrote:

(...)

And there's, of course, those who hate Tau fluff. These are even harder to manage. I'd not even try.

I doubt most of the players I play with are into the fluff part of the game so I don't think that's the case. But hey, I kinda dislike the Tau fluff too I'm a Farsight Enclaves man...

Thanks for clearing up why Tau were considered op, I never played those mixed lists - clean Tau only. Holy gak the things you described sound crazy, how was that even possible?
I wish I had a better and bigger playerbase where I live though! If the minis weren't so expensive, maybe more people would play...

cheers
Kahnawake

 Kahnawake wrote:

I doubt most of the players I play with are into the fluff part of the game so I don't think that's the case. But hey, I kinda dislike the Tau fluff too I'm a Farsight Enclaves man...

Thanks for clearing up why Tau were considered op, I never played those mixed lists - clean Tau only. Holy gak the things you described sound crazy, how was that even possible?
I wish I had a better and bigger playerbase where I live though! If the minis weren't so expensive, maybe more people would play...

cheers
Kahnawake

Sorry for the confusion; when I write Tau, is about the entire faction, not only the Empire. I like both TE and FSE fluffs - I hope they make amends and conquest the galaxy, like father and son... dunno where I've heard that before

How was that even possible? Battle-brother alliance level. When you can mix the best things from different armies... some unforeseeable interactions do happen and break the game.

I play orks. Love them, always have always will.

Saying that I'm at a loss on how to face tau.

Orks lack access to invisible or psychic shriek or other strong psychic powers.

The green tide is in bad shape vs tau. The combined fire with Darkstrider puts us at Toughness 3 from what I hear. So S6+ ignores our fnp. We are not going to get cover. So with 4 marker lights hits the tau army can combine fire our 1 large unit to ignore cover , +2 BS and -1 Toughness.

So I'm curious what an army like orks, lacking the suggested tools is suppose to do.

The get in cc only works if you can get their. Orks rely on their jink / cover since they have little to no armor. The 5++ kff can't cover enough or strong enough to protect enough models long enough to see combat.

Suggestions ?

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I play orks. Love them, always have always will.

Saying that I'm at a loss on how to face tau.

Orks lack access to invisible or psychic shriek or other strong psychic powers.

The green tide is in bad shape vs tau. The combined fire with Darkstrider puts us at Toughness 3 from what I hear. So S6+ ignores our fnp. We are not going to get cover. So with 4 marker lights hits the tau army can combine fire our 1 large unit to ignore cover , +2 BS and -1 Toughness.

So I'm curious what an army like orks, lacking the suggested tools is suppose to do.

The get in cc only works if you can get their. Orks rely on their jink / cover since they have little to no armor. The 5++ kff can't cover enough or strong enough to protect enough models long enough to see combat.

Suggestions ?

MSU. This will force the Tau player to spread his fire. The big unit of 100 models are what Hunter Contingent was born to kill, as Smashfucker and his retinue, Seerstar... MSU is a better way to deal with Tau

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I play orks. Love them, always have always will.

Saying that I'm at a loss on how to face tau.

Orks lack access to invisible or psychic shriek or other strong psychic powers.

The green tide is in bad shape vs tau. The combined fire with Darkstrider puts us at Toughness 3 from what I hear. So S6+ ignores our fnp. We are not going to get cover. So with 4 marker lights hits the tau army can combine fire our 1 large unit to ignore cover , +2 BS and -1 Toughness.

So I'm curious what an army like orks, lacking the suggested tools is suppose to do.

The get in cc only works if you can get their. Orks rely on their jink / cover since they have little to no armor. The 5++ kff can't cover enough or strong enough to protect enough models long enough to see combat.

Suggestions ?

Here's one:

Ork Suggestions

Has anyone tried MSU spam with psykers?

Tau have zero counters to mass multiple units other than split fire missile broadsides.

I have quite a bit of good luck with khorne daemonkin and IA 13 msu spam.

Also, I find charging EVERYTHING makes a tau player pause a bit. EVERYTHING. Transports? Forget shooting and turbo. Heavy squads? Run their asses up field.

It is hard to target prioritize when they have an entire army in their face turn two.

There are plenty of terror ld type attacks that work great against tau...especially back row hugging suits.