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What do you want me to say man? Everything is pay to win. How many Tau GMCs do you think sold this past month?

If you want to get off that track you need to talk with your friends and limit the GW-driven arms race.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Our cheese is bitter though, but at least our whine is endless!

Bahaha! Good one!

nareik wrote:

Knowing yoru enemies... very Art of Warhammer advice there Jancoran!

Mine tends to be heavy influenced by that. Lol.

As for the point you made its a good one. I recently played my Night Lords Vs.a list with dual Land Raiders and 9 Dreadnoughts (Iron Hands type thing). I killed precisely ONE Tactical Marine and managed to tie it (and would have won had i gotten one hull point off that Land Raider but it just would not give it up).

Let that sink in. I should have WON a game in which i killed one Tactical Marine in a game I ws completely overmatched in!

So like i say, Generalship has to play its role and knowing my enemy well in that instance was why I was able to compete even given the dire mismatch.

But that being said "All comers" has so many connotations that its kind of vague as to what that even means anymore.

marcman wrote:
Like what can they beat? Hordes, deathstars, power armor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kinda wanna take a bunch of av 2+ not sure if I should

they have some of the best CC in the game,

abaddon is one of the best CC hq's in the game due to the sheer amount of nonsense you can unleash through him as a vessel for your magic. and then you need to look at the rest of the list:

maulerfiends
zerkers
plague marines while not good at CC on the surface are incredibly good cc damage sponges
spawn
mutilators
warp talons (some very excellent flanking cc units)
raptors
hellbrutes can be good in cc
and the cultists while nothing exceptionally awesome are cheap and can crush most basic infantry under sheer weight of attacks, not to mention they can become plague zombies for some really resilient cc

they also have some of the best HQ's in the game in terms of raw statlines

 ionusx wrote:

marcman wrote:
Like what can they beat? Hordes, deathstars, power armor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kinda wanna take a bunch of av 2+ not sure if I should

they have some of the best CC in the game,

No, the best melee in the game are things like TWC and wraiths. Fast, durable units that sport a ton of quality attacks.
CSM have nothing like that.

 ionusx wrote:

abaddon is one of the best CC hq's in the game due to the sheer amount of nonsense you can unleash through him as a vessel for your magic. and then you need to look at the rest of the list:

Abaddon stacks up well (though I think a kitted out SM leader doesn't have bad odds).
The problem is he's tough to deliver without investing in a landraider, and landraiders aren't good (plus we have the worse variant).

 ionusx wrote:

maulerfiends
zerkers

Maulerfiends aren't bad, as they are incredibly quick. They aren't hard to tie up for several turns with a decent sized squad though, since they don't get many attacks. They suffer from similar issues that dreads do. They are also very fragile given their price and role.
Zerkers are overpriced garbage that can't reach assault unless you take a landraider. They then become way overpriced compared to other units that do CC better.

 ionusx wrote:

plague marines while not good at CC on the surface are incredibly good cc damage sponges
spawn
mutilators
warp talons (some very excellent flanking cc units)

Plague marines can absorb hits and do damage. Spawn are good too. Both units suffer from the fact that high S (or D) weapons don't care as much about their toughness anymore, but they are still not bad. Not amazing melee units though.
Warp talons are arguably one of the worst units in the entire game, and I'm surprised anyone thinks otherwise.

 ionusx wrote:

raptors
hellbrutes can be good in cc
and the cultists while nothing exceptionally awesome are cheap and can crush most basic infantry under sheer weight of attacks, not to mention they can become plague zombies for some really resilient cc

Raptors aren't bad, though they get overshadowed by the bikes who are superior in nearly every way.
Hellbrutes suffer from the problems are dreads do, they can get bogged down easily.
I've never used cultists in CC, but they are just over priced guardsmen. Guardsmen aren't great in cc.

 ionusx wrote:

they also have some of the best HQ's in the game in terms of raw statlines

Compare us directly to a SM biker lord kitted out.
We are flat out inferior.

 ionusx wrote:
they have some of the best CC in the game

CSM have indeed a lot of competent CC units, the issue tends to be bringing them to CC. In the end the only way to guarantee assaults is to stuff something into a Land Raider, and that means such a points sink that such unit will be very unlikely to kill enough things to recover their cost.

they also have some of the best HQ's in the game in terms of raw statlines

I guess you mean the Daemon Princes? They're not that great nowadays, and only a very few select builds are actually somewhat competitive.

"Mortal" CSM HQ are nothing impressive. Chaos Lords are hardly melee powerhouses nowadays, even properly geared and marked. All in all, there's a reason the Champions of Chaos special rule tends to be less than beneficial most of the time.

Why not just put Abaddon in a unit of bikes or spawn? Could such a retinue be used to form a conga line in front of him and drag him into combat?

Its something I plan to attempt when I finish my Black Crusade army.

Side note; if Abaddon accompanies a unit carrying Frag Grenades, does he get the benefit of them when charging through cover?

^ no he does not

and im extremely surprised to the point to where i almost got a heart attack to find out that someone likes warp talons, they are the worst units in the codex, they make me laugh when i read their stats for their points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ionusx wrote:

marcman wrote:
Like what can they beat? Hordes, deathstars, power armor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kinda wanna take a bunch of av 2+ not sure if I should

they have some of the best CC in the game,

abaddon is one of the best CC hq's in the game due to the sheer amount of nonsense you can unleash through him as a vessel for your magic. and then you need to look at the rest of the list:

maulerfiends
zerkers
plague marines while not good at CC on the surface are incredibly good cc damage sponges
spawn
mutilators
warp talons (some very excellent flanking cc units)
raptors
hellbrutes can be good in cc
and the cultists while nothing exceptionally awesome are cheap and can crush most basic infantry under sheer weight of attacks, not to mention they can become plague zombies for some really resilient cc

they also have some of the best HQ's in the game in terms of raw statlines

no not at all...

Yah, warptalons are the worst, IIRC they are literally the only daemon unit that falls back... They have lots and I mean LOTS of cons, but the lack of fearless just leaves me speechless.

Regarding the rest of the codex CSM don't excel at anything really, anything that they can do some other army can do it better, most of the time their loyalist counterparts.

An all nurgle army might be good at surviving against low str armies, tau and eldar armies thou will just kill them as easily as they do any other army.

They aren't Fearless? I thought that was one of the only good qualities they had.

But yes, mathematically they perform worse than Raptors against anything not MEQ outside of cover. Even then, the difference is so negligible that Raptors are the way to go, who are in turn not good because they compete in the same slot as Bikers, Spawn, and Heldrakes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They aren't Fearless? I thought that was one of the only good qualities they had.

But yes, mathematically they perform worse than Raptors against anything not MEQ outside of cover. Even then, the difference is so negligible that Raptors are the way to go, who are in turn not good because they compete in the same slot as Bikers, Spawn, and Heldrakes.

And that is on melee, if you factor the bolt pistols and option for 2 special weapons, they are a million times better.

The daemon rule doesn't provide fearless.

It's why VoTL is needed on Obliterators, if one dies they might peg it.

I knew Obliterators weren't Fearless; I just genuinely thought Warp Talons had it.

Possessed always have that going for them I guess...

 welshhoppo wrote:
The daemon rule doesn't provide fearless.

It's why VoTL is needed on Obliterators, if one dies they might peg it.

I just take three units of one. It works.

 Jancoran wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The daemon rule doesn't provide fearless.

It's why VoTL is needed on Obliterators, if one dies they might peg it.

I just take three units of one. It works.

But then you can't take fire raptors. Which is not so good.

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The daemon rule doesn't provide fearless.

It's why VoTL is needed on Obliterators, if one dies they might peg it.

I just take three units of one. It works.

But then you can't take fire raptors. Which is not so good.

Multiple detachments? I wouldnt take a Fire Raptor anyways because its forge world but multiple detachments would be the simple answer for that yeah?

 Jancoran wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
The daemon rule doesn't provide fearless.

It's why VoTL is needed on Obliterators, if one dies they might peg it.

I just take three units of one. It works.

But then you can't take fire raptors. Which is not so good.

Multiple detachments? I wouldnt take a Fire Raptor anyways because its forge world but multiple detachments would be the simple answer for that yeah?

I suppose so. At least cultists are cheap.


Actually, one thing CSM is good at, it getting nice things from forge world. Whatever the loyalists have, we have too. Plus daemon related nonsense. Bring on the Brass Scorpions!

 welshhoppo wrote:

I suppose so. At least cultists are cheap.
Actually, one thing CSM is good at, it getting nice things from forge world. Whatever the loyalists have, we have too. Plus daemon related nonsense. Bring on the Brass Scorpions!

Daemon related nonsense is cool. Wish they hd more of it like in the old days. I loved summoning them to my banner and charging!

Sigh, I remember when you could run up with a rhino. Then sacrifice a champion to get a bloodthrister.

Or have a daemon price ignore both armour and invulnerable saves. Those were the days, back when spiky bikes gave you an additional attack......

The Greater Brass Scorpion is trash honestly. It's weak as spaghetti against anything its own size and costs and arm and a leg. Fielding a Kytan is way cheaper and doesn't suck monstrous gak. The GBS is only good at massive disruption, and if your opponent isn't running WKs or Imperial Knights. Still highly susceptible to melta, mediocre firepower, terrible rear armor, trust me (As an owner of one) its not good.

Pretty centerpiece though. Definitely a conversation starter

The scorpion isn't for fighting its own size, it's for clearing through waves of infantry. It has a large ignores cover blast, gets additional stomps, has great front armor, a ridiculous charge range, and no D weapons. Plus when it explodes, it blows up super strength on anything but a 1.

You can get stuff for clearing infantry elsewhere though, and for cheaper. The Kytan can do the same on top of being better against large targets.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You can get stuff for clearing infantry elsewhere though, and for cheaper. The Kytan can do the same on top of being better against large targets.

I disagree with the idea that the Kytan can be an effective troop murderer, at least compared to the Brass Scorpion. The efficiency of the troop slaughter on the latter is just that much higher. It's even a waste of points to use a D weapon to murder 1 wound models, especially as the Kytan does not have the Lord of Skulls upgrade when it comes to more weapon attacks. Kytan is the best for killing other knights or super heavies, a blob of cultists or gaunts would give him a bad time.

If you take the Scorpion as your anti-infantry unit you can devote the entire remainder of your army to fighting off against super heavies and vehicles. It's the same concept as using the Kytan against the reverse. Yes, Chaos factions are flooded already with anti-infantry devices, but there's plenty of anti-vehicle ones we can take in the same IA13 as the scorpion. No doubt if you take the Scorpion it is not for facing the big threats, it's for rushing to your enemy's side of the field turn 1 and blasting/exploding in his face to annihilate all of the threatening infantry so the rest of your tank army can deal with what's left.

I have found that CSM are good at screwing over the meta. I've seen grav spam marine lists flail at heavy nurgle Spawn lists. I've seen Eldar Jetbike spam lists run out of room vs. 3 heldrake CSM lists. I've seen Tau overwatch whimper in the face of a dirge caster and I've seen SW/DA Deathstars bounce off easy invisibility from rerolling Sorcerers.

CSM won't steamroll over 7 opponents in a row, but they are not impotent to today's competitive game.

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Yah, warptalons are the worst, IIRC they are literally the only daemon unit that falls back... They have lots and I mean LOTS of cons, but the lack of fearless just leaves me speechless.

Regarding the rest of the codex CSM don't excel at anything really, anything that they can do some other army can do it better, most of the time their loyalist counterparts.

An all nurgle army might be good at surviving against low str armies, tau and eldar armies thou will just kill them as easily as they do any other army.

I've found Talons to be decently useful allied into a Codex: Daemons army. At least there they get all the basic daemonic supports through Malefic/Divination and upgrades like the Grimoire & Warpstorm table.
For added fun, give the Lv3 Sorc Santic powers for even more shenanigans, especially with Sanctuary & Hammerhand, while Cleansing Flame is ace for dealing with FMC heavy forces.
Heck, you could even grab your allies through the Crimson Slaughter codex and take Possessed as Troops to keep everything 100% daemonic!

I would never take them into a serious super competitive game or event. However, I've enjoyed what they can bring to my otherwise assault lacking Tzeentch Daemons when going up against most other types of non-optimised lists.

The successful chaos lists rely (unsurprisingly, I guess) on stuff that's unique to chaos armies - cheap, high mastery level telepaths (sorcerers and be'lakor), cheap cultist troops with or without a helcult formation, and daemon engines (especially maulerfiends or heldrakes).

The chaos knight is good too - yes, its almost identical to the basic imperial knight, but the foe-reaper chainsword and options of Daemon Knight Of and the Dirge Caster are enough to shunt it into a much more serious bracket.

It's the basic chaos marine that's a let-down; you only save one point compared to a generic space marine, and that costs you And They Shall Know No Fear and Chapter Tactics - and that's before you get to other 'free' stuff granted by formations (like drop pods, tactical doctrines, etc), not to mention the fact that a lot of players still think tactical marines are underpowered compared to bikers.

Chaos Marine Bikers are good, but if I wanted a biker army I'd probably play daemonkin - the Mark Of Khorne supports the shock-style combat and the Gorepack is easily the best thing daemonkin get access to.

40K is essentially two games. Games played with codexs Necron and newer (including IK), or any codex older than Necrons.

I'll happily pit my single codex Emperors Children army against any army made from same era codexs. Pretty sure I'll have a good chance of winning too given how well I know my army.

The problem simply grows exponentially when you start adding in Decurion bonuses and other freebies that the newest formations have been handing out like free candy.

As such its no wonder that codexs like Chaos, BA, Sisters, GK, Guard seem underpowered when looked at against Eldar, SM, and Necrons. Its just not a fair comparison anymore.

DarthDiggler wrote:
I have found that CSM are good at screwing over the meta. I've seen grav spam marine lists flail at heavy nurgle Spawn lists. I've seen Eldar Jetbike spam lists run out of room vs. 3 heldrake CSM lists. I've seen Tau overwatch whimper in the face of a dirge caster and I've seen SW/DA Deathstars bounce off easy invisibility from rerolling Sorcerers.

CSM won't steamroll over 7 opponents in a row, but they are not impotent to today's competitive game.

I think you discovered the secret formula for GW rules updates. If CSM can beat it then it needs to be stronger, and if CSM is winning using a particular tactic then that tactic must be overpowered. Watch as 8th edition is going to nerf the ability to mix bikes/cavalry and beasts together.

 Arkaine wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
I have found that CSM are good at screwing over the meta. I've seen grav spam marine lists flail at heavy nurgle Spawn lists. I've seen Eldar Jetbike spam lists run out of room vs. 3 heldrake CSM lists. I've seen Tau overwatch whimper in the face of a dirge caster and I've seen SW/DA Deathstars bounce off easy invisibility from rerolling Sorcerers.

CSM won't steamroll over 7 opponents in a row, but they are not impotent to today's competitive game.

I think you discovered the secret formula for GW rules updates. If CSM can beat it then it needs to be stronger, and if CSM is winning using a particular tactic then that tactic must be overpowered. Watch as 8th edition is going to nerf the ability to mix bikes/cavalry and beasts together.

To put it in a less skeptical tone... I'd say there is something appropriate about Chaos being a meta disruptive element.

The biggest problem Chaos has is that despite having strong melee choices, the vast majority of those units aren't strong enough to compensate for being gun down over the many turns it takes to get into that assault. You end up having to take a FW unit to have the mobility you need.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
I have found that CSM are good at screwing over the meta. I've seen grav spam marine lists flail at heavy nurgle Spawn lists. I've seen Eldar Jetbike spam lists run out of room vs. 3 heldrake CSM lists. I've seen Tau overwatch whimper in the face of a dirge caster and I've seen SW/DA Deathstars bounce off easy invisibility from rerolling Sorcerers.

CSM won't steamroll over 7 opponents in a row, but they are not impotent to today's competitive game.

I think you discovered the secret formula for GW rules updates. If CSM can beat it then it needs to be stronger, and if CSM is winning using a particular tactic then that tactic must be overpowered. Watch as 8th edition is going to nerf the ability to mix bikes/cavalry and beasts together.

To put it in a less skeptical tone... I'd say there is something appropriate about Chaos being a meta disruptive element.

The biggest problem Chaos has is that despite having strong melee choices, the vast majority of those units aren't strong enough to compensate for being gun down over the many turns it takes to get into that assault. You end up having to take a FW unit to have the mobility you need.

Well I have both mobiliy, saturation and toughnss with my Night Lords. Its been a good combination for me. Dirge Casters are really worthwhile also.