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The only way to viably play any Chaos Marines nowadays is to take as much Nurgle as possible, AND, to go for extreme min/max MSU styled builds.

Outside of Deathguard, anything even remotely fluffy gets curb stomped.

And that's entirely understandable. He's been running around claiming his generalship with his Night Lords army has been stomping all over. Til now he's not posted a list. I'm only pointing out, yes Nurgle lists are tough, durable lists but his list is certainly not a Night Lords army nor is it fluffy Nurgle as he makes no attempts at adhering to lore in any manner.

It does shed light on his style and is not a bad template for anyone unused to running Chaos.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The only way to viably play any Chaos Marines nowadays is to take as much Nurgle as possible, AND, to go for extreme min/max MSU styled builds.

Outside of Deathguard, anything even remotely fluffy gets curb stomped.

I though Death Guard fluffy was massed infantry assaults with an emphasis on attrition, so not MSUs but huge squads and very few vehicles and bikes. Which means that there is no fluffy playstyle.

It's totally understandable why he wins with that list because Raptors are easily our best units for close combat focused armies, which Chaos is in its entirety... every army can outshoot us except for Orks. Even Tyranids have more dakka.

I'm guessing he takes the Chaos Space Marines as a 75 pt tax to access Rhinos, which used with Dirge Casters and zooming across the board will ensure the Raptors aren't overwatched.

What I can't for the life of me figure out is why there are Mutilators in this list...

 Arkaine wrote:
It's totally understandable why he wins with that list because Raptors are easily our best units for close combat focused armies, which Chaos is in its entirety... every army can outshoot us except for Orks. Even Tyranids have more dakka.

I challenge that, orks have some decent firepower. Being able to take squads with cheap assault 2 weapons as basic infantry is nice while mek gunz, blitza bommers, and SAG big meks allow us to lay down high strength blasts and lootas, flashgitz, warbikes, and dakkajets have high ROF decent strength shots. I would say that orks out-dakka CSM.

 the Signless wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
The only way to viably play any Chaos Marines nowadays is to take as much Nurgle as possible, AND, to go for extreme min/max MSU styled builds.

Outside of Deathguard, anything even remotely fluffy gets curb stomped.

I though Death Guard fluffy was massed infantry assaults with an emphasis on attrition, so not MSUs but huge squads and very few vehicles and bikes. Which means that there is no fluffy playstyle.

Well if we look at the 30k death guard, you see that Morty was very big on TAC. That's why his marines had bolters bolt pistols and close combat weapons, so they were always prepared.

If it was fluffy, you'd have ten man squads with las plas and rhinos, so it is doable, just very expensive.

 purplkrush wrote:
And that's entirely understandable. He's been running around claiming his generalship with his Night Lords army has been stomping all over. Til now he's not posted a list. I'm only pointing out, yes Nurgle lists are tough, durable lists but his list is certainly not a Night Lords army nor is it fluffy Nurgle as he makes no attempts at adhering to lore in any manner.

It does shed light on his style and is not a bad template for anyone unused to running Chaos.

What is a Night Lord list?

To me it is striking with overwhelming force in melee. Using morale penalties or other 'disruption' effects.

He has two large units of raptors (but not at the expense of everything else), lead by chaos lords. He has a bunch of fast moving or deep striking troops (many of which cause fear). He has dirge casters. His army actually shapes up pretty well to what I'd expect a Night Lord army to be (instead of using the blood angel / raven guard codex and spamming MSU jump assaults).

The only 'concession' is that he is using a lot of Nurgle, but I see no reason why a Night Lord warband can't be blessed by one of the Gods. In the 2nd Ed codex there is a short story of a Khorne affiliated warband assaulting an imperial garrison, do examples exist in the fluff. Nurgle makes sense to me as it is associated with death and despair, which Night Lords famously seek to spread during war.

The great thing about the 40k legion warbands is they are so open to interpretation. The above list might not fit your interpretation of Night Lords, which is fair enough, but for me it isn't actually such a departure.

It's worth noting my black crusade army actually contains some Nurgle marked Night Lord Mutilators! Not actually played a game with it yet. Still have my Black Legion chosen to finish and Abaddon to paint!

 Arkaine wrote:
What I can't for the life of me figure out is why there are Mutilators in this list...

Best I can figure from the way it was described, they're a Distraction Carnifex of sorts, soaking up hits from the real targets if they're shot at, trudging along to wreck vehicles in the backline if ignored. Same durability and wounds as two min Termicide squads, for less points. Yeah, those points saved mean you can't shoot at the enemy and have S&P, but if you're just looking to have durable distractions that can potentially do some rough damage, it could be worth it. I get it. Yeah, they're a sub-par unit, but what in the codex isn't anymore (ah, tongue in cheek)?

That's what it seemed like to me, at least.

nareik wrote:

 purplkrush wrote:
And that's entirely understandable. He's been running around claiming his generalship with his Night Lords army has been stomping all over. Til now he's not posted a list. I'm only pointing out, yes Nurgle lists are tough, durable lists but his list is certainly not a Night Lords army nor is it fluffy Nurgle as he makes no attempts at adhering to lore in any manner.

It does shed light on his style and is not a bad template for anyone unused to running Chaos.

What is a Night Lord list?

To me it is striking with overwhelming force in melee. Using morale penalties or other 'disruption' effects.

He has two large units of raptors (but not at the expense of everything else), lead by chaos lords. He has a bunch of fast moving or deep striking troops (many of which cause fear). He has dirge casters. His army actually shapes up pretty well to what I'd expect a Night Lord army to be (instead of using the blood angel / raven guard codex and spamming MSU jump assaults).

The only 'concession' is that he is using a lot of Nurgle, but I see no reason why a Night Lord warband can't be blessed by one of the Gods. In the 2nd Ed codex there is a short story of a Khorne affiliated warband assaulting an imperial garrison, do examples exist in the fluff. Nurgle makes sense to me as it is associated with death and despair, which Night Lords famously seek to spread during war.

The great thing about the 40k legion warbands is they are so open to interpretation. The above list might not fit your interpretation of Night Lords, which is fair enough, but for me it isn't actually such a departure.

It's worth noting my black crusade army actually contains some Nurgle marked Night Lord Mutilators! Not actually played a game with it yet. Still have my Black Legion chosen to finish and Abaddon to paint!

The Night Lords do not worship the Gods. For them, Chaos was/is simply a means to power.

Maybe waaaaaaaay back in the days of 1st/2nd edition, but once GW really fleshed out all the original Legions with the Index Astartes, it was made very clear that Night Lords do not worship Chaos as a pantheon of Gods.
Even their long lost 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 codex outright forbid any marks beyond that of Chaos Undivided.

^^ This. The Legions don't worship. That's why they're listed seperately. Night Lords favor FAST attacks; bikes and Raptors and mechanization. Mutilator and Oblits aren't really their forte. Nurgle, like all the Chaos gods has a sacred number and their troops should be fielded in such representation. Overall it's just not a list for either. But hey, Jaco ran has been vocal about why he puts his lists together the way he does. There's nothing wrong with this list. It's just neither a Night Lords list nor a Nurgle list but it's much more Nurgle.

 purplkrush wrote:
^^ This. The Legions don't worship. That's why they're listed seperately. Night Lords favor FAST attacks; bikes and Raptors and mechanization. Mutilator and Oblits aren't really their forte. Nurgle, like all the Chaos gods has a sacred number and their troops should be fielded in such representation. Overall it's just not a list for either. But hey, Jaco ran has been vocal about why he puts his lists together the way he does. There's nothing wrong with this list. It's just neither a Night Lords list nor a Nurgle list but it's much more Nurgle.

I think that's the point of contention people have.
If you're going to throw what a great general you are in people's faces and claim you can get inferior lists to work, people are going to be filled with scorn when your list is revealed to pretty much be what they were saying is good in the first place.
Example, saying you are running night lords when you have Oblits, Mutilators, and nurgle for days. It's more deathguard than Night Lords at this point, though I could see Word Bearers with a focus on nurgle as well. Iron warriors could work if the nurgle mark is viewed as cybernetics. But its not really night lords outside of a paint job and 2 units of raptors.

Saying your IG blob is amazing and can't be beat, but bringing an Eldar Netlist to an actual tournament.

Only Night Lords is merely the name attributed to his army, not his claim to fame. The point attributed throughout the threads on this forum to his army was that he can successfully field a winning CSM list. With such a claim, a lot of Nurgle was expected.

Experiment 626 wrote:

nareik wrote:

 purplkrush wrote:
And that's entirely understandable. He's been running around claiming his generalship with his Night Lords army has been stomping all over. Til now he's not posted a list. I'm only pointing out, yes Nurgle lists are tough, durable lists but his list is certainly not a Night Lords army nor is it fluffy Nurgle as he makes no attempts at adhering to lore in any manner.

It does shed light on his style and is not a bad template for anyone unused to running Chaos.

What is a Night Lord list?

To me it is striking with overwhelming force in melee. Using morale penalties or other 'disruption' effects.

He has two large units of raptors (but not at the expense of everything else), lead by chaos lords. He has a bunch of fast moving or deep striking troops (many of which cause fear). He has dirge casters. His army actually shapes up pretty well to what I'd expect a Night Lord army to be (instead of using the blood angel / raven guard codex and spamming MSU jump assaults).

The only 'concession' is that he is using a lot of Nurgle, but I see no reason why a Night Lord warband can't be blessed by one of the Gods. In the 2nd Ed codex there is a short story of a Khorne affiliated warband assaulting an imperial garrison, do examples exist in the fluff. Nurgle makes sense to me as it is associated with death and despair, which Night Lords famously seek to spread during war.

The great thing about the 40k legion warbands is they are so open to interpretation. The above list might not fit your interpretation of Night Lords, which is fair enough, but for me it isn't actually such a departure.

It's worth noting my black crusade army actually contains some Nurgle marked Night Lord Mutilators! Not actually played a game with it yet. Still have my Black Legion chosen to finish and Abaddon to paint!

The Night Lords do not worship the Gods. For them, Chaos was/is simply a means to power.

Maybe waaaaaaaay back in the days of 1st/2nd edition, but once GW really fleshed out all the original Legions with the Index Astartes, it was made very clear that Night Lords do not worship Chaos as a pantheon of Gods.
Even their long lost 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 codex outright forbid any marks beyond that of Chaos Undivided.

Yes, some legions don't worship gods as a whole but there are factions within legions that do. The current codex gives room for this; saying MOST Night Lords look down on the fervent... meaning some don't and could even be marked by gods (willingly or not).

I even gave an example (okay, an old example) that proves there are Night Lords that are God Affiliated (one even sacrificed himself to summon a Greater Daemon of Khorne, which means there are essentially canon Night Lord KDK out there.

There are no solid 'rules' on what a Night Lord list must/can't include, and the guidelines are very faint.

Fear causing marines, overloaded with equipment, dedicated to accumulating weapons and causing mayhem, striking from no where (even called 'mutilators') scream Night Lords to me.

It's still a junk list either way. You can easily lose the Raptors for Bikers and lose most of the useless equipment on the Lord that's almost 300 points, AND lose the Mutilators because they distract NOBODY that's actually good at the game.

Hell, he didn't even bother taking Huron to profit off the fact he can infiltrate the Raptors to make sure a charge happens ASAP.

 Arkaine wrote:
Only Night Lords is merely the name attributed to his army, not his claim to fame. The point attributed throughout the threads on this forum to his army was that he can successfully field a winning CSM list. With such a claim, a lot of Nurgle was expected.

No, his original claim was that he runs a fluffy night lords list successfully in a competitive format.
This is anything but a fluffy night lords list. It has more HS than FA, and nurgle-spam doesn't fit night lords fluff. Neither do Mutilators or Oblits.

His other claim was the IG blob can't be killed, even in competitive formats.
When asked what he runs in a competitive format, he delivers an eldar net list. How does that not destroy any credibility he had?

Certainly for dying.
Get a Primarch and play HH.

 purplkrush wrote:

Jancoran wrote:

Night Lords Total Roster Cost: 1996

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

75pts 4 Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

75pts 4 Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

80pts 4 Chaos Space Marines [Black Legion] (Veterans of the Long War)
1 Aspiring Champion (Veterans of the Long War)
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

130pts 1 Chaos Lord (Nurgle, Jump Pack, Sigil of Corruption, Powerfist+ Combi Melta)

285pts 1 Chaos Lord (HQ) [Black Legion], 160 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Blight Grenades+ Melta Bombs + Sigil of Corruption + Combi-Meltagun+ Veterans of the Long War) + Chaos Bike + 1 The Eye of Night + The Hand of Darkness

330pts 13 Raptors (Mark of Nurgle) + Meltagun x2
1 Raptor Champion (Melta Bombs + Mark of Nurgle + Power Axe x1)

330pts 13 Raptors (Mark of Nurgle) + Meltagun x2
1 Raptor Champion (Melta Bombs + Mark of Nurgle + Power Axe x1)

170pts 1 Heldrake

It's worth noting that this IS NOT a Night Lords list. This is a Nurgle list. Both of your lords are marked as Nurgle as are your Raptors. Which isn't very fluffy.

This partially explains Jancoran's story about his amazing win with just one kill. He's running a durable Nurgle list that's min maxed, not fluffy.

Odd thing to say. Your opinion of its fluff value is based on...what? Is this not Raptors led by Raptors and Bike commanders, everything mobile in a Rhino or Deep Striking? Bringing death from the skies. So I'm unclear on where it falls short?

Anywho, doesn't matter. Side note:

The Night Lords flew into the night sky this evening and took all three wins at the tournament.. They acquitted themselves well, playing the mnissions perfectly and bringing fear to those who need its chilling grip on their hearts!

Night Lords are cool.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


His other claim was the IG blob can't be killed, even in competitive formats.
When asked what he runs in a competitive format, he delivers an eldar net list. How does that not destroy any credibility he had?

Non-sequiter. That I play TWO effective forces does nothing but add to my credibility. As you can see, i am aware of what a good list looks like. I use good lists. I also use lists that are good that you don't think are good. The difference of opinion has nothing to do with my credibility. It has to do with the limitations of your personal experience on the matter compared to mine.

Does one take the wisdom of a man who has actually done a thing or do we take the advice of a man who never will?

Sorry if that's too zen for Dakkadakka proceedings but you have got to consider the possibility that I might actually enjoy success with the unit for a defensible reason. Further consider that I have no actual reward waiting for me if you believe me nor punishment if you dont. So why would I suggest such a "radical thing" without good reason? It's kind of silly to think I would absorb time on the subject if there was nothing positive there. Bury the skeptic and look at it from a new point of view perhaps.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:
It's totally understandable why he wins with that list because Raptors are easily our best units for close combat focused armies, which Chaos is in its entirety... every army can outshoot us except for Orks. Even Tyranids have more dakka.

I'm guessing he takes the Chaos Space Marines as a 75 pt tax to access Rhinos, which used with Dirge Casters and zooming across the board will ensure the Raptors aren't overwatched.

What I can't for the life of me figure out is why there are Mutilators in this list...

Mutilators are in the list because they are absolutely excellent for target saturation. The Mutilators are Elites. Obliterators are heavy support. Therefore you can maximize the number of units dropping in and around the enemy all at once using them in those slots. The Mutilaotors are scary for any vehicle to face and no normal unit wants to tangle with one. They often last two combat phases which is the perfect amount of time to then either die or break free so the Night Lords can shoot and gank the trapped unit again.

Mutilators morph into some useful things also. I once concussed a WraithKnight with dual Power Mauls, which allowed the Character to get his attacks in first the next round, and thus the mighty fell. The Mutilator couldn't have finished the Wraith KNight, butthe Hand of Darkness could finish the job if the KNight was just weakened enough (down to three wounds or less)

Anywho, Mutilators do work. Really pleased with how they go about their business.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It's still a junk list either way. You can easily lose the Raptors for Bikers and lose most of the useless equipment on the Lord that's almost 300 points, AND lose the Mutilators because they distract NOBODY that's actually good at the game.

Hell, he didn't even bother taking Huron to profit off the fact he can infiltrate the Raptors to make sure a charge happens ASAP.

If you infiltrate, you cant charge. So... Cool? Perhaps. But not practical in a lot of situations. Outflanking does make more sense of using the utility.

My Night Lords did win all their games today as I said.

I actually get where some people are coming from a little. The Night Lords and their lack of piety in Evil Gawds were a big attraction I had with them when I first started playing them. Their Mercenary existence is also appealing from a story telling standpoint.

But it does indeed say that you should make no mistake: Night Lords ARE Chaos Space Marines. They must Challenge whenever possible, and they do gain Daemonic Boons for success! So like it or not their leaders are certainly hearing the call and the leaders are unlikely to be alone in that. The taint is everywhere in the Eye of Terror.
But I agree that it is a rare Night Lords contingent who breaks down to receive the full blessings of Papa Nurgle. Rare perhaps. Never done? Unlikely.

I would never call that a Night Lords list.

 Jancoran wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


His other claim was the IG blob can't be killed, even in competitive formats.
When asked what he runs in a competitive format, he delivers an eldar net list. How does that not destroy any credibility he had?

Non-sequiter. That I play TWO effective forces does nothing but add to my credibility. As you can see, i am aware of what a good list looks like. I use good lists. I also use lists that are good that you don't think are good. The difference of opinion has nothing to do with my credibility. It has to do with the limitations of your personal experience on the matter compared to mine.

It has everything to do with your credibility.
If everyone is saying that you can take the "night lords" list and IG blob list and only win in a casual environment, and you are claiming that is not the case, we would expect you to take those lists to a competitive scene and do well.
Instead, you take an eldar net list, after claiming that using a similar list against your blob is "list tailoring".
My personal experience is a mostly competitive meta (we house rule somethings out) with people who have played since 2-3rd edition. Yours is a guy who charges a damaged wraithknight into this blob, and another guy who can't figure out how to deploy drop pods against a blob.
These things all damage your credibility, since your entire argument is based on your credibility and nothing else.

 Jancoran wrote:

Does one take the wisdom of a man who has actually done a thing or do we take the advice of a man who never will?

This, for the record, is similar to the anti-vaccine argument. Personal experiences don't matter a whit when something can be calculated with math. It would take overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise, not 1 person going "I've done it, BELIEVE IT!".
Regardless, you have yet to "actually done a thing". Your blob and night lords list has yet to be seen going against a competitive list, as far as we can tell. Every list you've put them up against was terrible or the players made huge mistakes, suggesting they are inexperienced.
So when you do a thing, maybe I'll believe you.

 Jancoran wrote:

Sorry if that's too zen for Dakkadakka proceedings but you have got to consider the possibility that I might actually enjoy success with the unit for a defensible reason. Further consider that I have no actual reward waiting for me if you believe me nor punishment if you dont. So why would I suggest such a "radical thing" without good reason? It's kind of silly to think I would absorb time on the subject if there was nothing positive there. Bury the skeptic and look at it from a new point of view perhaps.

People suggest radical things without reward all the time. Average people don't believe in climate change or think vaccines cause autism quite often, even in a college setting (I get asked questions about this a lot, as I live in a red state). They don't directly benefit from it, and yet they still believe it very strongly and try to convince others, including myself.

Usually when people say "ignore the math and just believe", they are very wrong, IME.
Oddly enough, in my experience, it involves quantum mechanics being used to describe mediation or something similar.
So this is a nice change of pace, but a dish I've had before.

I have a CSM list which does well in competitive environments. It is Adepticon legal and being from the Chicagoland are that is all we really care about.

HQ - Lord, MOK, Axe of fury, juggernaut, aura of dark glory
Tr - 10 cultists, auto guns, shotgun
Tr - 10 CSM, 2 meltaguns, combi-melta, melta bomb, rhino, havoc launcher
Tr - 10 CSM, 2 plasmaguns, combi-plasma, meltabomb, rhino, havoc launcher
Fa - 5 Nurgle Spawn
Fa - 5 Khorne Spawn
Fa - Heldrake
HV - Sicaran, heavy bolters, perdifus rift anomaly
HV - Vindicator Laser Destroyer
LOW - Typhon, ceramite, dirge caster

This is from memory but I know it is close. The Typhon isn't allowed in ITC events, but it is allowed at Adepticon and that's what we play here. This list does very well against DA bike lists. Last tourney I played a kid with a Knight in a Tau army. I Held more objectives at the end of the game and won as all he had left was the knight. Next played Tim Gorham and a Gladius with librarian conclave + centstar. Tim won the Torrent of Fire Invitational in 2014. This was relic primary and 4 objectives secondary. The Spawn did some real damage as he was grav cannon heavy. My shooty units took out his transports and the spawn assaulted the marines inside. On turn 4 the librarians failed to cast invisibility and the Typhon neutered the centstar. Win for me. Final game was against a grav heavy mechanicus list with a DA bike star with librarian conclave. I killed all the grav cannons from the mechanicus with the Typhon and then spawn assaults to clean up. The Bikes killed all the spawn, but he never failed invisibility so I all I could do was try to thunder blitz his bikes. He had no weapons to really hurt the Typhon and I spread out in the corners to claim objectives and win.

I know the list could be dialed up by reducing the CSM, but I like fluff. I would like a 2nd heldrake to hunt MSU (spawn are great at hunting MSU on their own) and exchange the Juggernaut Lord for 2 bike sorcerers, but I'm ok with how it is right now.

I think your list just shows how the CSM codex is limited. Everything we need is in the FW book but not everywhere will let you use it.

Anyone not letting you use forgeworld is a dumblefuck.


CSM really needs forgeworld because they outright SUCK.

Forgeworld chaos is just. better.
Not OP by any stretch, but viable at the least. half the CSM codex is not, the things that are mostly are barely so.


I love the CSM, but its a failure of a codex and requires a DA level overhaul, at the very least.

 Arkaine wrote:
Only Night Lords is merely the name attributed to his army, not his claim to fame. The point attributed throughout the threads on this forum to his army was that he can successfully field a winning CSM list. With such a claim, a lot of Nurgle was expected.

Hrm, when one talks about "winning with a Night Lords list", that usually carries some fairly strong preconceptions for most people about how the army is built and plays. Producing a min-max'd MSU nurgle army with a bunch of S&P units doesn't really fit that, it's not really what anyone (except Jancoran apparently) would consider "Night Lords" army list.

Nobody would ever look at that army list and think "oh yeah, that's probably a Night Lords army".

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Only Night Lords is merely the name attributed to his army, not his claim to fame. The point attributed throughout the threads on this forum to his army was that he can successfully field a winning CSM list. With such a claim, a lot of Nurgle was expected.

Hrm, when one talks about "winning with a Night Lords list", that usually carries some fairly strong preconceptions for most people about how the army is built and plays. Producing a min-max'd MSU nurgle army doesn't really fit that, it's not really what anyone (except Jancoran apparently) would consider "Night Lords" army list.

Nobody would ever look at that army list and think "oh yeah, that's probably a Night Lords army".

This goes back to why I stopped playing Chaos, even back when I still played 40k.
I loved the fluff behind the legions, but the codexes didn't really allow the flavor of the legions and didn't feel like the fluff on the table top. I had a full khorne army, but they just sucked so bad unless I gave everything MON.
Competitiveness aside, the codex is a failure at representing the fluff... the only real reason to play CSM.

Indeed, and GW seems to have consistently gone out of its way to ensure that for some reason.

I mean, they would have a license to print money with a re-done 3.5E book, or Legion supplements, or even just Legion "chapter tactics".

But they hamfist in a copy-pasted WHFB mechanic instead (that doesn't work in 40k really), and then give us a Black Legion supplement (when the core book already is pretty much "Codex: Black Legion") and a random renegade faction nobody cared about and that nobody ever even bothers with except to get access to one school of psychic powers.

Hey there, don't hate on Crimson slaughter ;p it works well for red corsairs and word Bearers at least. The latter what I use. Just take a ML3 sorcerer with Prophet of the voices and spell familiar and spam malefic demonology, bringing some improved possessed for meat shields and take cultists as troop taxes to bring whatever cult troop you may need. I personally like to add in a Hellblades, one or two chaos contemptors, and if I feel bored bring in a daemon lord.

Saying all this though: 30k does chaos marines a lot better, to the point that for any game past 1500 points I will take my word Bearer legionaries by default

autumnlotus wrote:
Hey there, don't hate on Crimson slaughter ;p it works well for red corsairs and word Bearers at least. The latter what I use. Just take a ML3 sorcerer with Prophet of the voices and spell familiar and spam malefic demonology, bringing some improved possessed for meat shields and take cultists as troop taxes to bring whatever cult troop you may need. I personally like to add in a Hellblades, one or two chaos contemptors, and if I feel bored bring in a daemon lord.

Saying all this though: 30k does chaos marines a lot better, to the point that for any game past 1500 points I will take my word Bearer legionaries by default

We don't hate it because of the rules. We hate it because we were begging for a good legion book and got a book about a faction that never existed until the 6th edition csm was released. Even forgeworld got it better by releasing a book about the Purge.....

Crimson Slaughter just underscore the CSM deficiencies. It's a book about chaos "drop pod" specialists who can't use drop pods in the game.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Anyone not letting you use forgeworld is a dumblefuck.


CSM really needs forgeworld because they outright SUCK.

Forgeworld chaos is just. better.
Not OP by any stretch, but viable at the least. half the CSM codex is not, the things that are mostly are barely so.


I love the CSM, but its a failure of a codex and requires a DA level overhaul, at the very least.

It's an important part of the conversation you have to have with your community. Sometimes it's "no" because the event organizer doesn't want to make things confusing for younger participators who are still learning rules... Sometimes it's because the guy you were planning to play against would just rather you didn't because of their sentiment that day. No doesn't always mean "I don't want you too" it can just be "I don't feel like it" in the same way they don't want to play against "Dark Eldar again". A lot of people at my game store have and use FW but they don't always want it in a game... And the majority of players at my store play chaos marines too, so it isn't anyone trying to eek out advantages.

I don't think chaos needs FW anymore than loyalists need the battle brothers rule. Space marines do well because they can easily ally with whatever they need. Chaos has limited allies compared to loyalists.

I think taking units from FW is no different than DA taking Space Wolf allies or a Gladius taking an assassin. It's units from multiple books just like chaos taking units from imperial armor 13.

I have rarely ever seen a top level SM army not take advantage of cherry picking the best units from multiple sources. Chaos just lacks the multiple sources part of the equation.

More to the point, Chaos taking FW units isn't really even taking units from multiple books in the way DA's taking SW's allies is. The FW units are intended to be additions to the CSM book, not units from another army that were never designed or intended to be part of one army but are allowed to be via the allies rules.

FW really isn't really this super special thing people need to have unique conversations with their communities over, at least not any moreso than anything else else in the game, especially supplements, dataslates, etc that nobody else seems to see a need for special conversations about. Treating it that way is an artificial remnant of many editions past.