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 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

nareik wrote:
I agree 3.5 wasn't perfect. There were lots of arbitrary limits that pushed legions to be caricatures of themselves.

It was a great codex for generic chaos armies though. The legion stuff felt like a bolted on afterthought to me.

What were the 3.5 rules for Night Lords? I can't remember them so well, were they a chapter approved thing, not 3.5 proper?

They traded 2 heavy slots for 1 extra fast and they all had night vision. And removed the 0-1 on raptors iirc.

Not quite. The Night Lords were allowed 4 Fast Attack but only 2 Heavy Support.

Experiment626 already posted the complete rules, you were allowed only 1 Heavy, which was ok since Oblies were pretty tough back then and you were restricted to 0-1 so, no need for more slots. Also they had the special stealth but it came with a cost, can't remember if it was 2 pts/model or something like that. The night vision was free thou

Oblits were actually a 0-1 Elites option.
The swap to the Heavy Support section happened when GW royally ****ed us over and then danced across the tattered remains of our mutilated carcass in the 4ht edition middle finger age codex.

Stealth Adept was 5pts for HQ's & 1pt/model for Aspiring Champions/Squad Chumps.


***Edit: just to give everyone an idea of how bad & stagnant Chaos have become; Oblits have barely changed in over 14 Years!
They've gained the ability to take Marks of Chaos, a Heavy flamer, Assault cannon & Plasma cannon as possible body weapons, while losing the Frag Missile launcher weapon, Heavy bolter & Autocannon weapons. Other than that? Same pts cost. Same T4/W2/2+/5++ profile. Same lame-arsed restrictions that prevent firing the same weapon in consecutive turns.

Heck, they used to be able to each morph a different weapon within the same squad! Now? Nope, how dare you be allowed to play with that kind of adaptability/synergies, you foul, no good Chaos losers!

Consider that a gravcannon Centurion is less that a melta bomb more than a freaking MoN Oblit - THAT'S the kind of "left in ancient gaming history" Chaos Marines currently suffer from.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


I don't know about that. I think it speaks to chaos players realizing that their builds are ultimately limited against the meta right now and so look for silver linings. Some go to Forgeworld. Some play fluff, not looking for competition. Some resort to non fluff justification for their armies. Some quit playing and instead just model. That's where I'm at at the moment. Chaos is the best army in terms of a modelers dream. We can do somewhat straight up loyalists with few modifications, we can do the spikes and nurgle stuff straight out of the box, we can do most of the cool stuff of daemons if we want, or we can do whatever the hell we want and call it a result of a he warp. What is chaos good at? Modeling opportunity. We have the ability to create the most glorious looking armies or the most decrepit. We can use most of the fantasy line and it works just fine. We can paint them pink or paint it black. We are artists. We do what we want.

So to sum up, chaos is where you want to be if playing a game of dice and winning is not your end all and be all. It's the hobbyists darkest dreams come true.

Chaos is good for modeling if you're into that. But ui think the point being made was that WANTING it to be fluffy is not a codex consideration its a personal one. The codex itself can produce a usable, and winning Night Lords flavored army. And thats all that it has to do to be competitive. If they stopped calling it Chaos and just renamed everuything to the "Codex: XYZ" would you then care whether i got Nurgle on me or not? No. You'd just say that the codes allows a really tough jump trooper if you're inclined to use it.

So The Chaos Codex is a prime example of where peoples WISHES aren't fulfilled so they start calling it names instead of trying to find out how to use what it IS NOW. Nostalgia? I get it. And lets face it: Raptors are kinda expensive for Assault Marines that get Fear. On the other hand: do I care as long as it BOTH works AND looks awesome? Nope.


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 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

nareik wrote:
I agree 3.5 wasn't perfect. There were lots of arbitrary limits that pushed legions to be caricatures of themselves.

It was a great codex for generic chaos armies though. The legion stuff felt like a bolted on afterthought to me.

What were the 3.5 rules for Night Lords? I can't remember them so well, were they a chapter approved thing, not 3.5 proper?

They traded 2 heavy slots for 1 extra fast and they all had night vision. And removed the 0-1 on raptors iirc.

Not quite. The Night Lords were allowed 4 Fast Attack but only 2 Heavy Support.

Experiment626 already posted the complete rules, you were allowed only 1 Heavy, which was ok since Oblies were pretty tough back then and you were restricted to 0-1 so, no need for more slots. Also they had the special stealth but it came with a cost, can't remember if it was 2 pts/model or something like that. The night vision was free thou

Kay in any event, they also, if you read the books, didnt use Defilers (Im told) but then that was not in the actual codex. So theres all kinds of fluff cross over and other stuff you could get tangled up in.

Does the Chaos Codex work? Yeah. It does. So you gotta' play a little better to use them. Thats okay. Tau know what thats like because they had to do it for like 15 years. Lol.

Not sure what rock you hid under, but Tau were solid in late 3rd, and their 4th edition book was ruthless during the 'Fish of Fury' hay days of 4th.
5th edition's core rules broke Tau, and then GW ignored them for an entire edition, because they had to let Imperials have a dominating edition of the game.

Tau have not suffered in any way like Chaos, Guard or Tyranid players have with their rules... Hell, even Dark Angels have suffered more than Tau have. The only real problem for Sisters players is that it's damn near impossible to actually buy their models!

I think its ok for the fiction and rules to evolve. Maybe at the beginning of the M40 Night Lords didn't do all those things but its easy enough to believe that given enough time, maybe corruption, or in fighting has driven them to.

From a rules side I think the Chaos Codex is a bit on the edge of working. The majority of the time it has combinations to do well enough. I think its more that you feel its age with a lack of formations that makes it lack a truly competitive edge against the armies that have had more recent revisions. It gets very challenging when you bring a Chaos army (which aren't very point efficient) and you go up against a marine army with the spamy number of tactical squads and transports of their main formation.

In a casual environment sure. But player skill and codex strength are two separate aspects of power for an army. No matter what you do to a chaos marine army, by itself it still has a low floor and low ceiling for optimization. If you make the best list ever, and play masterfully, an eldar list will still do better assuming an opponent with equal skill. That's the problem here: there shouldn't be tiers of usability to armies. If I liked blood angels I shouldn't be punished for not playing with the space marine prime book. If I like X unit, I shouldn't statistically be worse off if I didn't instead take Y unit which is strictly superior.

The problem here is that there is little reason to play chaos for a lot of fans now. The Lore is stagnate, or in some cases disgusting. Remember Draigo curbstomping a daemon Primarch? Or how word Bearers were retconned in how they worship chaos? How about this the models are horrendous compared to most other ranges, with the only good ones lately (DV chosen) were never fleshed out and were monopose snapfit. And mechanically we are the worst marine army period, even with FW options unless you just take chaos superheavies as an army.

As an example I recently touched the space marine book, and converted over my usual army of marines to it and took a boring random chapter so I wasn't being pampered (took mantis warriors). You know what I found? Units didn't die as much, had better options, and vehicles actually had support with my land raider being used as a crusader to transport sternguard which actually did better then my plague marines supported by Biomancy sorcerer. I had fun, and wasn't tabled by my friends Necrons like my chaos marines ALWAYS were

Experiment 626 wrote:
Not sure what rock you hid under, but Tau were solid in late 3rd, and their 4th edition book was ruthless during the 'Fish of Fury' hay days of 4th.
5th edition's core rules broke Tau, and then GW ignored them for an entire edition, because they had to let Imperials have a dominating edition of the game.

Tau have not suffered in any way like Chaos, Guard or Tyranid players have with their rules... Hell, even Dark Angels have suffered more than Tau have. The only real problem for Sisters players is that it's damn near impossible to actually buy their models!

What Rock did I hid under?

Well Tau empire was my first army. I won a whole grip of tournaments and Best gebnerals with them from 4th Edition onward (I was brand new at the tail end of 3rd) so I'm aware that they can totally play. I am also aware that if i had gone to a place like Dakkadakka in any era before 6th, you'd find 100 people a day telling you they are low tier and "outdated". Which deterred me not at all. So i wasnt under a rock. I was playing and winning with Tau Empire. But thats what you would have heard on a hundred forums or what have you.

That said, I had to get very good at the game to do what i did. And Tau Empire weren't powning anyone's GT's back in the day. Lets not even kid ourselves about that. EVERYONE seemingly TRIED Tau empire and then sold their stuff in 4th because of the locking units into combat thing. I know cause I was the one buying them. In 5th their codex was aged by then and overtaken by many new codex's, culminating in the "Matt Ward Incident". It wasn't til their 6th edition codex came along that Tau empire was a respected member of the "updated" community. Only it was tainted by the Taudar thing, which 6th Edition unwisely allowed. =)

So no rock. No rock at all. I'm just telling you that Tau empire had to fight a little harder and a lot smarter to win against the continual onslaught of codex's. Chaos Marine players who subscribe to the the thought that their codex "sucks" may have more of their emotions wrapped up into that declaration?

I mean I'm not here to tell you this codex is "just so great". Just saying you can go win a tournament with it.

 Jancoran wrote:

So no rock. No rock at all. I'm just telling you that Tau empire had to fight a little harder and a lot smarter to win against the continual onslaught of codex's. Chaos Marine players who subscribe to the the thought that their codex "sucks" may have more of their emotions wrapped up into that declaration?

I mean I'm not here to tell you this codex is "just so great". Just saying you can go win a tournament with it.

It's kind of concieted of you to assume you know better about a book then anyone else isn't it? Obviously people are invested, but that doesn't cloud actual facts that have been ignored or belittled for several threads.your opinion has value, but not more then anyone else's on here

autumnlotus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

So no rock. No rock at all. I'm just telling you that Tau empire had to fight a little harder and a lot smarter to win against the continual onslaught of codex's. Chaos Marine players who subscribe to the the thought that their codex "sucks" may have more of their emotions wrapped up into that declaration?

I mean I'm not here to tell you this codex is "just so great". Just saying you can go win a tournament with it.

It's kind of concieted of you to assume you know better about a book then anyone else isn't it? Obviously people are invested, but that doesn't cloud actual facts that have been ignored or belittled for several threads.your opinion has value, but not more then anyone else's on here

No. I am just certain of my ability to win with it. And therefore see no reason to doubt. i am expressing an opinion of confidence. Others are expressing an opinion of doubt. We don't agree. That is no conceit. that's point of view.

Funny how I know a Chaos player who consistently doesn't lose.

He plays Black Legion/Emperor's Children.

He instagibbed a WK with a Chaos Knight and wiped out a squad of Terminators with a defiler. Plasma Oblits are not terrible.

 Jancoran wrote:

autumnlotus wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

So no rock. No rock at all. I'm just telling you that Tau empire had to fight a little harder and a lot smarter to win against the continual onslaught of codex's. Chaos Marine players who subscribe to the the thought that their codex "sucks" may have more of their emotions wrapped up into that declaration?

I mean I'm not here to tell you this codex is "just so great". Just saying you can go win a tournament with it.

It's kind of concieted of you to assume you know better about a book then anyone else isn't it? Obviously people are invested, but that doesn't cloud actual facts that have been ignored or belittled for several threads.your opinion has value, but not more then anyone else's on here

No. I am just certain of my ability to win with it. And therefore see no reason to doubt. i am expressing an opinion of confidence. Others are expressing an opinion of doubt. We don't agree. That is no conceit. that's point of view.

You are also remarking on how others are only feeling different from you by implying a lack of intelligence and inability to play the game

Not intelligence. Willingness. Possibly ability. But mostly just willingness. How many "i just shelved mine when x codex came out" posts have I read? A lot. How many "My old list cant compete" posts? How many "Chaos doesnt have the formations to compete" posts when you can and will win without them? A lot. If you are winning, which of those resonates? None. Because despite all those posts, people ARE winning. Ask how. Dont ask "if" is my point of view. I want to hear more good ideas and less gloom

They CAN'T compete. That's why you don't see them at any of the big tournaments except as allies for Belakor or something.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They CAN'T compete. That's why you don't see them at any of the big tournaments except as allies for Belakor or something.

I'm still waiting on this mythical way to make Thousand Sons, or even just Tzeentch Marines in general, not completely suck.

The only things I've actually found "useful" in terms of Tzeentchian units, is to take small squads of Possessed/Warp Talons as allies to a full on Daemon army. Makes my Tzeentch Daemons happy, (gaining killy assault things), but it doesn't magically make my Chaos Marines suddenly viable. (just proves that those units are currently in the wrong gakking codex!)

But then I guess my answer is to stop playing Tzeentch and instead play Tzeenurgle, because... "Reasons."

You evidently just don't have the will to make them good. If you will it, they won't suck. My will says my wife gets all my models, what a waste of a will.

nareik wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
Only Night Lords is merely the name attributed to his army, not his claim to fame. The point attributed throughout the threads on this forum to his army was that he can successfully field a winning CSM list. With such a claim, a lot of Nurgle was expected.

Hrm, when one talks about "winning with a Night Lords list", that usually carries some fairly strong preconceptions for most people about how the army is built and plays. Producing a min-max'd MSU nurgle army with a bunch of S&P units doesn't really fit that, it's not really what anyone (except Jancoran apparently) would consider "Night Lords" army list.

Nobody would ever look at that army list and think "oh yeah, that's probably a Night Lords army".

Not true, his list isn't far from what I'd expect from Nightlords.

Uses overwhelming force to win combats.

Plenty of Fear causers.

Other 'psychological' effects (dirge casters).

Ability to strike from 'nowhere' (jump, deep strike).

Even mutilators I think can fit the Night Lord theme (deep strike, fear, melee focused, obsessed with personal power, use chaos as a tool to master for their own gain instead of a religion (they eat weapon spirits)). I've never seen any fluff that states "mutilators are known to be used by xx force", but that doesn't imply they can't be justified in any army!

Point 1 is obvious BS, every army uses that. It's not a distinct characteristic of the Night Lords.

2 and 3 are distinct chracteristics attributed to the Night Lords.

Point 4 is far too broad and would only be a distinct characteristic if an army DIDN'T use it.

Oblits and Mutilator actually belong to their own cult by fluff and are mercenaries for hire. They don't really fit the fluff of Night Lords but as mercenaries they don't have too.

I'm not against his list. I think it would be hella fun to play against and if we lived anywhere in driving distance I'd love a game. The technicalities are what define the Legions and the cults. The distinctions that define the color scheme you use, not the other way around. Is it an awesome individual warband blending two distinct fighting styles into something greater than the originals? Hell yes! Is it a Night Lords list? No. Night Lords don't swing so far to chaos that they'd have marks. Once your Lords and the vast majority of your warband is heavily enough influenced by a specific god so as to show significant signs of corruption, they're no long part of the group. Is it a Nurgle cult list? Kinda but not really. Nurgle cult doesn't flow with this style of tactics. Think of it this way: Nurgle is all about decay, any mechanization beyond the basics will break down too quickly to be cost effective in its maintenance (lookin at you Raptors).

Are these just my personal opinions regarding a game of plastic people? Yes. My personal bias plays into this as I began playing 3rd edition. To me the distinctions matter. HOWEVER, it's just a game, play it your way. Like I said, it's sounds like a fun list to go up against, but it ain't Night Lords.

The problem I have the the posted Night Lords list and actually many others that use unbound or the formations is that it can actually be what ever you want to call them. The posted list could easily be called a deathguard list given how much mark of Nurgle it had in it.

And that is the problem. With out a recognized set of allowances and limitations anything can be called anything and it pretty much destroys the identity of a true Death Guard or Nightlords list. And thats the problem wtih 40K at the moment is that there is no real army definitions anymore. Its getting much harder to have an army identity. Before 6th edition if someone said they were showing up with a Night Lords army, I pretty much had a good idea of what I was going to face. Now, hell it could be anything.

Some forces rely on attrition, others sabotage, others through range.

Overwhelming force in one sided combats is how GW describe Night Lords style of battle. It might sound stupid but that is how the fluff is described now.

Your welcome to take 3rd ed fluff in preference, but that doesn't discredit other perspectives.

Oh and interesting reminder that oblits were a 0-1 elite. I guess pretty much every chaos army under 7th ed is unfluffy by the all powerful 3rd ed metric .

Actually they are all just Iron Warriors / (insert favorite CSM faction here) hybrids. Iron Warriors had the restriction of the 0-1 oblits removed in 3.5

I think that most armies could benefit for more unit restirctions. There are some things that just get too powerful the more of them there are on the table. Its not good game design.

Also, on the note that oblits and mutilators are a cult...

I thought mutilators were completely different to obliterators on this?

Mutilators are simply melee terminators who have become way too obsessed with collecting weapons, so much so they fused with the weapons they collect and absorb their primitive weapon spirits, and can now manifest weapons at will (provided they didn't already manifest that weapon just a moment ago /sigh).

 Jancoran wrote:
Not intelligence. Willingness. Possibly ability. But mostly just willingness. How many "i just shelved mine when x codex came out" posts have I read? A lot. How many "My old list cant compete" posts? How many "Chaos doesnt have the formations to compete" posts when you can and will win without them? A lot. If you are winning, which of those resonates? None. Because despite all those posts, people ARE winning. Ask how. Dont ask "if" is my point of view. I want to hear more good ideas and less gloom

I've never given up on my CSM and still play at tournaments at my FLGS now and then, and get wins against the most powerful armies, but 100% of the time it is due to luck (great rolls, getting invisibility, getting cards on the maelstrom of war missions that I can complete by sitting there with my cultists) or because my opponent didn't pay attention to the objectives. That has nothing to do with how powerful the army is, in most of these wins I've ended about to be erased from the table, which is luck again since the game ends 1 turn before the enemy can finally destroy my army.

Winning a game doesn't change the fact that if being at equal power level a victory wouldn't have to depend entirely on luck or playing against people with a lot less experience on the game.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Except the Night Lords don like chaos, don't worship chaos, and don't even live in the Eye of Terror. Their gene seed is also surprisingly pure.

Then why not play Raven Guard?

 Selym wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Except the Night Lords don like chaos, don't worship chaos, and don't even live in the Eye of Terror. Their gene seed is also surprisingly pure.

Then why not play Raven Guard?

Because how the two former legions play as aren't identical. One likes to sneak in under cover, prepare a strike, and attack from all sides while the other is about overwhelming assaults and fear tactics. That's kinda like saying I want to play a good thousand sons army, so I better just play grey knights: its a vaguely correct alternative, but different enough that it is not helpful

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Not intelligence. Willingness. Possibly ability. But mostly just willingness. How many "i just shelved mine when x codex came out" posts have I read? A lot. How many "My old list cant compete" posts? How many "Chaos doesnt have the formations to compete" posts when you can and will win without them? A lot. If you are winning, which of those resonates? None. Because despite all those posts, people ARE winning. Ask how. Dont ask "if" is my point of view. I want to hear more good ideas and less gloom

I've never given up on my CSM and still play at tournaments at my FLGS now and then, and get wins against the most powerful armies, but 100% of the time it is due to luck (great rolls, getting invisibility, getting cards on the maelstrom of war missions that I can complete by sitting there with my cultists) or because my opponent didn't pay attention to the objectives. That has nothing to do with how powerful the army is, in most of these wins I've ended about to be erased from the table, which is luck again since the game ends 1 turn before the enemy can finally destroy my army.

Winning a game doesn't change the fact that if being at equal power level a victory wouldn't have to depend entirely on luck or playing against people with a lot less experience on the game.

I am sorry to hear you give yourself so little credit. Luck? If you say so. You'd know better than I how your games go. I don't attribute my wins to luck. Again: just my point of view.

autumnlotus wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Except the Night Lords don like chaos, don't worship chaos, and don't even live in the Eye of Terror. Their gene seed is also surprisingly pure.

Then why not play Raven Guard?

Because how the two former legions play as aren't identical. One likes to sneak in under cover, prepare a strike, and attack from all sides while the other is about overwhelming assaults and fear tactics. That's kinda like saying I want to play a good thousand sons army, so I better just play grey knights: its a vaguely correct alternative, but different enough that it is not helpful

Fair point. CSM as a whole needs a conceptual redesign. It's currently "C:SM -2".

The havoc launcher is by far the best item in our codex.

Followed by scrolls of magnus (I use it all the time and love it)

Followed by Thousand Sons (because no one takes your list seriously)

 Konrax wrote:
The havoc launcher is by far the best item in our codex.

Followed by scrolls of magnus (I use it all the time and love it)

Followed by Thousand Sons (because no one takes your list seriously)

Havok launchers are cheap, but in no way great compared to most every codex choices for blasts.

Scroll of magnus is useful for small point games, or against armies with no psykers of their own. Personally I prefer it on a dark apostle tagteaming with a sorcerer of Tzeentch for boon of mutation.

And thousand sons are objectively worse then chaos space marines with a cheap sorcerer hanging out with them.they cost far to much with almost no benefit to that cost. Even if the opponent treats them like conscripts, they will still never kill enough to make up their points. If I was playing thousand sons I would rather have tzeentch generic marines and terminators to escort lots of sorcerers.

 Konrax wrote:
The havoc launcher is by far the best item in our codex.

Followed by scrolls of magnus (I use it all the time and love it)

Followed by Thousand Sons (because no one takes your list seriously)

I did an article on Tzeentch a while back:
Tzeentch stuff

 Jancoran wrote:

I am sorry to hear you give yourself so little credit. Luck? If you say so. You'd know better than I how your games go. I don't attribute my wins to luck. Again: just my point of view.

And on this day, we were so blessed by our 5th God of chaos... Jancoran... He who is clearly the best and brightest amongst the Dakka players. Who can refute an entire popular opinion by his force of will alone...

Seriously though, I love my CSM and have not / will not stop playing them, but statistically they are one of the weakest codex's out. Cut and dry stats they are worse point for point than their counterparts. Is it possible to win with them? Certainly. Are you going to have a good time vs. an optimized Eldar list? Probably not, unless you enjoy being turned into a fine mist by turn 3.

CSM have tons of options for modeling and painting, not to mention the possibility for homebrew chapters and warbands. To me CSM are good at bringing character and lore to the table. I have much more fun running my CSM than my Eldar, even though the win rate for both those armies could not be more different.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
The havoc launcher is by far the best item in our codex.

Followed by scrolls of magnus (I use it all the time and love it)

Followed by Thousand Sons (because no one takes your list seriously)

I did an article on Tzeentch a while back:
Tzeentch stuff

Some decent stuff in there.

The scrolls are awesome when I take my 270 point mega Sorc.

He has killed all sorts of things, and although he is expensive he either destroys himself or causes serious damage to the enemy.

Very fun to play to be honest.

 clamclaw wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

I am sorry to hear you give yourself so little credit. Luck? If you say so. You'd know better than I how your games go. I don't attribute my wins to luck. Again: just my point of view.

And on this day, we were so blessed by our 5th God of chaos... Jancoran... He who is clearly the best and brightest amongst the Dakka players. Who can refute an entire popular opinion by his force of will alone...

Seriously though, I love my CSM and have not / will not stop playing them, but statistically they are one of the weakest codex's out. Cut and dry stats they are worse point for point than their counterparts. Is it possible to win with them? Certainly. Are you going to have a good time vs. an optimized Eldar list? Probably not, unless you enjoy being turned into a fine mist by turn 3.

CSM have tons of options for modeling and painting, not to mention the possibility for homebrew chapters and warbands. To me CSM are good at bringing character and lore to the table. I have much more fun running my CSM than my Eldar, even though the win rate for both those armies could not be more different.

Overstating what I said and acting like I said it isnt cool.

I assume tongue in cheek so I'm not tooo offended. =)

The thing is, though, I built my Night Lords to defeat Eldar Wave spam originally and it oddly does pretty well against biker spam also. It takes one hard round of shooting and overwhelms the bikes, and then the Wraith Knight is left to do all the work and objective stealing but it cant be everywhwere at once, and i really can be. So I mean... i ant actually do much TO the Wraith KNight but his buddies? Oh, I can do something about them. And I do!

Don't give into despair. chaos isn't the dead meat its being made out to be.