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 Korinov wrote:
Jancoran, you've already stated in another thread that people in your meta are somehow unable to deal with your "unstoppable" IG blobs,


"I win games" and "I win tournaments" is only anecdotical evidence. .

Thats also actually not what I said. I said it had died once. And lets not bring that thread over here. Kay? BOTH of them were locked because of the unpleasant natur of the conversatyions that followed.

Winning tournaments is proof. What you have is theory. I'll take proof. Spanks.

You're winning local games to crap opponents, NOT tournaments. Nobody looks for topping lists at local games.

Akiasura wrote:


1) Why did your opponent bunch up his tanks ? Out of the three lists I see you mentioning, only 1 should have enough tanks that they can even be bunched up...

2) You had...1 lascannon on the field? The eye of night is a one use only weapon, so all you had was a single lascannon, and that got him moving? ....Why?

3. How did you take away the lion's share? The most damage the eye of night can do is d3 penetrating hits,

4. How much LoS blocking terrain does your meta have?

You are again confusing the two tournaments i went to. I already posted a clarification on that to separate the two.

1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

3) I hid. Like i said. I only needed to expose some of my Raptors, not all. So he shot me a lot but much of it wasted since he can only kill those he could see. Simple. It was the same point I made earlier: You can have all the shooting in the world but if i deny you significant targets... meh.

4. 25% or so. Not surprisingly. ENOUGHT to hide most of one unit. Lol. That's all I needed. And since there wasnt more, i didnt deploy the rest. Because that would have been giving up casualties for no gain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're winning local games to crap opponents, NOT tournaments. Nobody looks for topping lists at local games.

Oh? Ironically those same lists at major tournaments actually play most of their games at NOT- major tournaments, casual pick up games and local stores.

So really, that remark is... just... well...

And we've called you on your BS in multiple threads outside this one about that.

If CSM's were actually a good codex, you'd actually get results at those tournaments and other people would too. Nobody is, and it isn't like you found some secret NOBODY has seen before.

I will pay for your ticket to one of those tournaments just to see you proven wrong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And we've called you on your BS in multiple threads outside this one about that.

If CSM's were actually a good codex, you'd actually get results at those tournaments and other people would too. Nobody is, and it isn't like you found some secret NOBODY has seen before.

I will pay for your ticket to one of those tournaments just to see you proven wrong.

Okay. If you're buying, I'm going. Just make sure its the Bay Area Open. I have relatives down there i can stay with.

 Jancoran wrote:


1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

1) So... your final opponent list was a walker ork force?... Aren't ork walkers like the worst units on this latest edition? Nobody uses the gorkanauts, the killa kans are terrible now that HP were implemented and they have 2HP each, and Deff Dreads suffer from all the non-loyalist dread issues, no way to get them quick into combat.

2) Your opponent moved not due to fear of being shot by that 1 lascannon but because they are orks and they aren't a shooty army... like at all. However yeah if the orks were spamming walkers which is a terrible idea and had squads of 3 kans I'm sure the eye did tonz of dmg.

If an ork heavy walker list is what made it to the finals of a tournament (assuming you won) we can have a pretty good idea of your local meta.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

1) So... your final opponent list was a walker ork force?... Aren't ork walkers like the worst units on this latest edition? Nobody uses the gorkanauts, the killa kans are terrible now that HP were implemented and they have 2HP each, and Deff Dreads suffer from all the non-loyalist dread issues, no way to get them quick into combat.

2) Your opponent moved not due to fear of being shot by that 1 lascannon but because they are orks and they aren't a shooty army... like at all. However yeah if the orks were spamming walkers which is a terrible idea and had squads of 3 kans I'm sure the eye did tonz of dmg.

If an ork heavy walker list is what made it to the finals of a tournament (assuming you won) we can have a pretty good idea of your local meta.

Eh, Dread Mob can be good (most likely what the Ork Walker army was), but like you posted above, they can get killed/stuck easy.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

1) So... your final opponent list was a walker ork force?... Aren't ork walkers like the worst units on this latest edition? Nobody uses the gorkanauts, the killa kans are terrible now that HP were implemented and they have 2HP each, and Deff Dreads suffer from all the non-loyalist dread issues, no way to get them quick into combat.

2) Your opponent moved not due to fear of being shot by that 1 lascannon but because they are orks and they aren't a shooty army... like at all. However yeah if the orks were spamming walkers which is a terrible idea and had squads of 3 kans I'm sure the eye did tonz of dmg.

If an ork heavy walker list is what made it to the finals of a tournament (assuming you won) we can have a pretty good idea of your local meta.

Eh, Dread Mob can be good (most likely what the Ork Walker army was), but like you posted above, they can get killed/stuck easy.

It can, but from what I've read around (got myself an ork army but really haven't played them enough) the 100 ork boyz or MAN's are the way to go at least at tournament levels.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

1) So... your final opponent list was a walker ork force?... Aren't ork walkers like the worst units on this latest edition? Nobody uses the gorkanauts, the killa kans are terrible now that HP were implemented and they have 2HP each, and Deff Dreads suffer from all the non-loyalist dread issues, no way to get them quick into combat.

2) Your opponent moved not due to fear of being shot by that 1 lascannon but because they are orks and they aren't a shooty army... like at all. However yeah if the orks were spamming walkers which is a terrible idea and had squads of 3 kans I'm sure the eye did tonz of dmg.

If an ork heavy walker list is what made it to the finals of a tournament (assuming you won) we can have a pretty good idea of your local meta.

No. He shot a lot. His army had a lot of STR 8 and other high str shots. Inaccurate but when they landed, it mattered. And best of all for him, He had a list I wasn't nearly as well prepared to deal with. Nor his previous oppponents.

there is a special formation that makes them quite mean.

And "fear" wasn't what I said. I said it got him moving. Its a shock to the system when that Eye of Night goes off just right. Lascannon was another way of saying: move it buddy before I cost you something you really care about"

As my strategy involved positional dominance and certainly was in no position to dominate him in close combat, which my army is normally good at, I had to play the long game. And so I did. And as usual the Chaos Marines managed to win it for me while I was busy absorbing him in endless melee's once the clock had moved enough for me to gambit the charges (which I kind of knew wouldn't go my way, but that was okay)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

1) So... your final opponent list was a walker ork force?... Aren't ork walkers like the worst units on this latest edition? Nobody uses the gorkanauts, the killa kans are terrible now that HP were implemented and they have 2HP each, and Deff Dreads suffer from all the non-loyalist dread issues, no way to get them quick into combat.

2) Your opponent moved not due to fear of being shot by that 1 lascannon but because they are orks and they aren't a shooty army... like at all. However yeah if the orks were spamming walkers which is a terrible idea and had squads of 3 kans I'm sure the eye did tonz of dmg.

If an ork heavy walker list is what made it to the finals of a tournament (assuming you won) we can have a pretty good idea of your local meta.

Eh, Dread Mob can be good (most likely what the Ork Walker army was), but like you posted above, they can get killed/stuck easy.

It can, but from what I've read around (got myself an ork army but really haven't played them enough) the 100 ork boyz or MAN's are the way to go at least at tournament levels.

Dread mobs are awesome. Cool special ability that comes with that.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

1) So... your final opponent list was a walker ork force?... Aren't ork walkers like the worst units on this latest edition? Nobody uses the gorkanauts, the killa kans are terrible now that HP were implemented and they have 2HP each, and Deff Dreads suffer from all the non-loyalist dread issues, no way to get them quick into combat.

2) Your opponent moved not due to fear of being shot by that 1 lascannon but because they are orks and they aren't a shooty army... like at all. However yeah if the orks were spamming walkers which is a terrible idea and had squads of 3 kans I'm sure the eye did tonz of dmg.

If an ork heavy walker list is what made it to the finals of a tournament (assuming you won) we can have a pretty good idea of your local meta.

No. He shot a lot. His army had a lot of STR 8 and other high str shots. Inaccurate but when they landed, it mattered. And best of all for him, He had a list I wasn't nearly as well prepared to deal with. Nor his previous oppponents.

there is a special formation that makes them quite mean.

And "fear" wasn't what I said. I said it got him moving. Its a shock to the system when that Eye of Night goes off just right. Lascannon was another way of saying: move it buddy before I cost you something you really care about"

As my strategy involved positional dominance and certainly was in no position to dominate him in close combat, which my army is normally good at, I had to play the long game. And so I did. And as usual the Chaos Marines managed to win it for me while I was busy absorbing him in endless melee's once the clock had moved enough for me to gambit the charges (which I kind of knew wouldn't go my way, but that was okay)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

1) So... your final opponent list was a walker ork force?... Aren't ork walkers like the worst units on this latest edition? Nobody uses the gorkanauts, the killa kans are terrible now that HP were implemented and they have 2HP each, and Deff Dreads suffer from all the non-loyalist dread issues, no way to get them quick into combat.

2) Your opponent moved not due to fear of being shot by that 1 lascannon but because they are orks and they aren't a shooty army... like at all. However yeah if the orks were spamming walkers which is a terrible idea and had squads of 3 kans I'm sure the eye did tonz of dmg.

If an ork heavy walker list is what made it to the finals of a tournament (assuming you won) we can have a pretty good idea of your local meta.

Eh, Dread Mob can be good (most likely what the Ork Walker army was), but like you posted above, they can get killed/stuck easy.

It can, but from what I've read around (got myself an ork army but really haven't played them enough) the 100 ork boyz or MAN's are the way to go at least at tournament levels.

Dread mobs are awesome. Cool special ability that comes with that.

Jancoran, again, would love to see how your SoB and Night Lords lists fair against my local TFG Eldar player. Note, he isn't TFG for playing Eldar, but he only has setting, and that setting is bringing nothing but cheese. He often runs Taudar.

Being the best general ever won't help when you're going up against complete gak.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Jancoran, again, would love to see how your SoB and Night Lords lists fair against my local TFG Eldar player. Note, he isn't TFG for playing Eldar, but he only has setting, and that setting is bringing nothing but cheese. He often runs Taudar.

Being the best general ever won't help when you're going up against complete gak.

So... if I win it will just be anecdotal right? Lol. I mean that's the funny part. I can strike down an endless line of titans in the gamer community and its all for nought because someone who can't stand it will just call it "anecdotal" instead of according it its due.

What is his list by the way?

My Sisters of Battle did take out serious competition this weekend though. That was fun. But I digress.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Jancoran, again, would love to see how your SoB and Night Lords lists fair against my local TFG Eldar player. Note, he isn't TFG for playing Eldar, but he only has setting, and that setting is bringing nothing but cheese. He often runs Taudar.

Being the best general ever won't help when you're going up against complete gak.

So... if I win it will just be anecdotal right? Lol. I mean that's the funny part. I can strike down an endless line of titans in the gamer community and its all for nought because someone who can't stand it will just call it "anecdotal" instead of according it its due.

What is his list by the way?

My Sisters of Battle did take out serious competition this weekend though. That was fun. But I digress.

Depends. The first time I went up against him in a 2v2, it was a Wraithknight, Jetbikes, Wave Serpent, and Wraithguard at 1000 points each player. Recently, he ran min Tau 2 Riptides Allies to his Jetbikes + Wraithknight shenanigans in a 1850 tournament.

Second, man, if only there were some convenient three letter tournaments that are nationally for 40k play

 jreilly89 wrote:


Second, man, if only there were some convenient three letter tournaments that are nationally for 40k play

ITC? Yeah I ran 4 tournaments in the last four months and two of them were ITC. Another was the Elvensword Ambassadorial Tournament (winner had three Wraith Knights, other winner was also Eldar, though he easily could have lost two of his games). The fourth was just another tournament, a prep tournament for the Ambassadorial one.

Most of the tournaments here are ITC.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Jancoran, again, would love to see how your SoB and Night Lords lists fair against my local TFG Eldar player. Note, he isn't TFG for playing Eldar, but he only has setting, and that setting is bringing nothing but cheese. He often runs Taudar.

Being the best general ever won't help when you're going up against complete gak.

So... if I win it will just be anecdotal right? Lol. I mean that's the funny part. I can strike down an endless line of titans in the gamer community and its all for nought because someone who can't stand it will just call it "anecdotal" instead of according it its due.

What is his list by the way?

My Sisters of Battle did take out serious competition this weekend though. That was fun. But I digress.

To be fair, I consider anything at local level as anecdotal and not really worthy of evidence. High end tournaments and math are what decide the course of the game.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Depends. The first time I went up against him in a 2v2, it was a Wraithknight, Jetbikes, Wave Serpent, and Wraithguard at 1000 points each player. Recently, he ran min Tau 2 Riptides Allies to his Jetbikes + Wraithknight shenanigans in a 1850 tournament.

Yup so that sounds pretty competitive. Very normal list. Wraithguard are one reason why I like my Mutilators and Obliterators so much. Congratz. You get to overwatch...one...Mutilator... hehehe. WHACK.

Well against that list the Wraith Knight and Riptide would probably drop turn one. I guess it depends on if he has a ton o bikes or just min maxed bikes. But I'd probably get both in turn one if i go first. Considerably longer battle plan if he goes first (as i would then be outflanking).

But yeah I have seen those lists and fought them. My Tau Empire list in particular was successful against TauDar. Pathfinders, one with Dark Strider, took one down last time I played while my Stubborn troops swamped the Riptide. It was the bikes that did most of the damage in my last game. they actually were the threat in that case.

He sounds like he likes his big toyz.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


1) Why did your opponent bunch up his tanks ? Out of the three lists I see you mentioning, only 1 should have enough tanks that they can even be bunched up...

2) You had...1 lascannon on the field? The eye of night is a one use only weapon, so all you had was a single lascannon, and that got him moving? ....Why?

3. How did you take away the lion's share? The most damage the eye of night can do is d3 penetrating hits,

4. How much LoS blocking terrain does your meta have?

You are again confusing the two tournaments i went to. I already posted a clarification on that to separate the two.

Ah, I went off of the post where you listed the three armies you faced. I didn't see you mention an ork walker force.

 Jancoran wrote:

1) The final opponent vs. my Night Lords was a walker heavy Ork force. It had lots of armor. Some of it quite large.

Oh.
Well, Orks are a bad dex, and the walkers are some of their worst units...so not surprised at all that you won then. More surprised that a tournament featured an Ork walker list and a CSM force at all, tbh.

 Jancoran wrote:

2) The Eye of Night, as you appear not to realize, is a large blast. it does D3 Penetrating hits to every model it hits. Couple that with a Lascannon and well... Damage. One use, but scary. Your incredulity was no doubt matched by my opponents. Yet...

I realize it. When I thought you were facing knights, it's hard to imagine getting more than 2.
A single lascannon will cause a pen hit to a knight, which can be blocked by the shield or just not roll high enough.
Against Ork walkers sure. Clearly I was thinking you were facing knights, since it was the only armor I saw mentioned in the 3 games you listed.

 Jancoran wrote:

3) I hid. Like i said. I only needed to expose some of my Raptors, not all. So he shot me a lot but much of it wasted since he can only kill those he could see. Simple. It was the same point I made earlier: You can have all the shooting in the world but if i deny you significant targets... meh.

4. 25% or so. Not surprisingly. ENOUGHT to hide most of one unit. Lol. That's all I needed. And since there wasnt more, i didnt deploy the rest. Because that would have been giving up casualties for no gain.

Right, against an incredibly slow walker force, with some of the worst walkers in the game, I'm no longer surprised you were able to hide.
If you had been able to hide from drop pods, teleporting centstars, and knights, I would be surprised.

Again, no one is surprised you beat the Ork dex. It's also in the running for one of the worst dexes around, and the walkers are some of the worst units in it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

To be fair, I consider anything at local level as anecdotal and not really worthy of evidence. High end tournaments and math are what decide the course of the game.

To be fair, I think that's faulty thinking.

You'd characterize Sisters of Battle as poor because there's only four of them in the big girlz tournament, with therefore four opportunities to win; and the Eldar as strong when they have 45 chances to win (as a codex). You'd ignore that the Sisters of Battle armies aren't being played by the top generals (and they were demonstrably not). You ignore that "44 of the 45 Eldar codex guys" didn't win and many of them, AT LEAST four, never played another Eldar player. Seriously? Your "selective math" is... Selective.

You can see why I don't particularly find this sentiment of yours to be an enlightened point of view. If codex's are all we looked at, the sheer opportunity is enough to propel some Codex's to a top spot (which ignores the Generalship utterly, which I don't understand at all). And more to the point: Top Generals need to represent the Codex in order for those standings to mean something. Not the other way around.

Someone, somewhere got in your ear and whispered "Netlist or die" and you believed it. Okay fine. Everyone is free to listen to the whispers of their choice, and we all do. I listen to the whispers of potential. I experiment and I learn. After winning, my opponent can console themselves by telling me "Well it's a good thing that was only an anecdotal loss. Shew".

Sure. That works. "Anecdotal"? Ha!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Ah, I went off of the post where you listed the three armies you faced. I didn't see you mention an ork walker force.

Well, Orks are a bad dex, and the walkers are some of their worst units...so not surprised at all that you won then. More surprised that a tournament featured an Ork walker list and a CSM force at all, tbh.

Right, against an incredibly slow walker force, with some of the worst walkers in the game, I'm no longer surprised you were able to hide.
If you had been able to hide from drop pods, teleporting centstars, and knights, I would be surprised.

Again, no one is surprised you beat the Ork dex. It's also in the running for one of the worst dexes around, and the walkers are some of the worst units in it.

Mm hm. So just to ferret out what you just said:

1. You arent fully reading the (multiple)posts wherein i clarified this and that is why the conversation left you behind. Yet you're responding which means you're busy with an agenda, instead of reading to meditate on things.
2. Which codex is supposed to win? Now ORKS is worse than Chaos? And I suppose Tyranids was and I suppose any other codex I beat was too?
3. You dont know what you're talking about. that formation for orks is actually great, and a hard counter for my army. You can SAY whatever you want to the contrary. but even managing the clock well as I did, the proof was in the pudding.
4. Who gives a rip what some OTHER force might have required of me. THIS was the challenge in front of me. THIS was the force that steam rolled through the first two opponents. So you can enter pretend land and say "some other force would have done better" but not so shockingly, you can't prove that nor say it and be fair minded. You also can't make the magical perfect counter to my army be the one that apperars at ANY tournament any more than they can at Adepticon. So I mean...

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

To be fair, I consider anything at local level as anecdotal and not really worthy of evidence. High end tournaments and math are what decide the course of the game.

To be fair, I think that's faulty thinking.

You'd characterize Sisters of Battle as poor because there's only four of them in the big girlz tournament, with therefore four opportunities to win; and the Eldar as strong when they have 45 chances to win (as a codex). You'd ignore that the Sisters of Battle armies aren't being played by the top generals (and they were demonstrably not). You ignore that "44 of the 45 Eldar codex guys" didn't win and many of them, AT LEAST four, never played another Eldar player. Seriously? Your "selective math" is... Selective.

I don't think Sisters of battle are weak, they are just very limited in what is good and possible with their dex. They lack options.
I think this is overall, a common sentiment from most 40k players, even on this board. We had a thread a while ago about the weakest dex, and people were quick to point out those who claimed it was sisters were wrong. They have some really strong stuff.
In many ways, they remind me CSM (really want to do a mono-build and not deviate), their mono-build just happens to be a lot stronger than CSM.
Was the sisters army the one who faced the Centstar, Knights, and Daemonkin list?

 Jancoran wrote:

You can see why I don't particularly find this sentiment of yours to be an enlightened point of view. If codex's are all we looked at, the sheer opportunity is enough to propel some Codex's to a top spot (which ignores the Generalship utterly, which I don't understand at all). And more to the point: Top Generals need to represent the Codex in order for those standings to mean something. Not the other way around.

There is certainly some truth to that.
I don't know if you play WMH, but the best Skorne player around is this one guy (Wyatt, I think) in america. There is another amazing player among the Aussies.
Recently, in the world wide tournament, the great skorne player made it to the top ten teams. He had a 100% win rate, and was the only skorne player in that top ten.
So, if you look at the top players out of all the top players (you need to win tournaments just to make an appearance at this event), Skorne seems amazing. If you look at all of the players present, Skorne looks terrible. Which is the truth? Statistics is more complicated than that, though WMH is a vastly more complex game than 40k.

So while I certainly see your point that less generals means less chances to win, it also means less chances to lose. If a win/loss percentage was computed, Eldar would probably be closer to 50% than most of us would think they would be, simply because they are extremely popular right now. Any eldar/eldar game results in a win and a loss, dragging the average down.
Every win for CSM counts for a lot, since they are such a small pool.

There is also the old adage "Where there is smoke, there is fire". If you aren't seeing a dex at all in the top tables (or really small amounts for the drake or something similar) there is probably a reason for that. You can't say for sure, but it's worth investigating.

 Jancoran wrote:

Someone, somewhere got in your ear and whispered "Netlist or die" and you believed it. Okay fine. Everyone is free to listen to the whispers of their choice, and we all do. I listen to the whispers of potential. I experiment and I learn. After winning, my opponent can console themselves by telling me "Well it's a good thing that was only an anecdotal loss. Shew".
Sure. That works. "Anecdotal"? Ha!

All losses are anecdotal. It's not just yours. You are just the only one using wins as an argument and ignoring math.
For example, in 5th edition, I was pretty much undefeated with Chaos. I was playing several games a week, against people that were traveling to some of the larger tournaments. My meta was very cutthroat.
I did well because I abused the strengths of the dex and because we still had some great builds available. Like now, we were extremely limited, but we were very strong within those limitations. A lot like sisters of battle actually.
This was backed up by the fact that I could take a plague marine and compare him to a lot of other options available to other dexes and see it was a good buy. Not the best, but still really good.

But I would never claim that Chaos was a power dex of 5th. SWs got a lot more options than we did (and a lot of melee CSM players moved to this dex), and GK were even worse. I beat these armies all the time, but my dex was weaker. Simple math proved that. The match up was 60-40 against me, which isn't a big deal (if you play fighting games, it's like picking a Tier 2 fighter against a Tier 1, unless that Tier 2 is a counterpick).

What people are saying now is that the Chaos Dex has a 80-20 matchup against the power builds, and a 70-30 against the top dexes. Probably 60-40 against the mid tier dexes, and is okay against the other bad dexes.

Akiasura wrote:

Was the sisters army the one who faced the Centstar, Knights, and Daemonkin list?

I don't know if you play WMH, but the best Skorne player around is this one guy (Wyatt, I think) in america. There is another amazing player among the Aussies.
Recently, in the world wide tournament, the great skorne player made it to the top ten teams. He had a 100% win rate, and was the only skorne player in that top ten.
So, if you look at the top players out of all the top players (you need to win tournaments just to make an appearance at this event), Skorne seems amazing. If you look at all of the players present, Skorne looks terrible. Which is the truth? Statistics is more complicated than that, though WMH is a vastly more complex game than 40k.

All losses are anecdotal. It's not just yours. You are just the only one using wins as an argument and ignoring math.


But I would never claim that Chaos was a power dex of 5th.

What people are saying now is that the Chaos Dex has a 80-20 matchup against the power builds, and a 70-30 against the top dexes. Probably 60-40 against the mid tier dexes, and is okay against the other bad dexes.

Again, yes, the Sisters took on the Centstar, the Crazy War Convocation and the DaemonKin+Castigator.

I do play Warmachine. I dont find it comparable to 40K for a lot of reasons that i wont derail us on. Its just a completely different type of game altogether.

All losses arent anecdotal. they are losses. and the wins, consequently are wins. And thats' that. Math wont change it.

As for "Power dex" i do not think i am guilty of suggesting that it is. or isn't. It is a codex. You can win with it. You can compete with it. Statements that you cant are in fact false. Demonstrably false. And really that carries weight. theory doesn't.

I already pointed out the issue with Sisters of Battle. All the miniatures are expensive and old to get ahold of, and the codex is very ridiculously mono build. In that way they're like a more expensive version of Tyranids. Nobody hates Sisters because they're not competitive. Rather, they're just above mediocre and entirely boring. Somebody gave you a graph in one of the locked threads you chose to ignore. Maybe go read that and learn something.

Your "potential" argument is also flawed, and people in the Yugioh/MTG community would it utterly ridiculous that you would bring it up.

It isn't selective math. You've just become so accustomed to a meta where everyone is so poor or runs junk lists (especially that Wraithknight story you told, where nobody in their right mind would do something so blasted stupid and bonkers) that YOU think you're enlightened. I've attended MANY local tournaments too, and have won them. Yet I don't have to try and tout that as a reason to listen to me, as I've got math and common sense backing me up instead.

So yes, somebody needs to just kick your ass at Vassal and call it a day. If I have my laptop fixed at any near point in the future, it will be me.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I already pointed out the issue with Sisters of Battle. All the miniatures are expensive and old to get ahold of, and the codex is very ridiculously mono build. In that way they're like a more expensive version of Tyranids. Nobody hates Sisters because they're not competitive. Rather, they're just above mediocre and entirely boring. Somebody gave you a graph in one of the locked threads you chose to ignore. Maybe go read that and learn something.

Your "potential" argument is also flawed, and people in the Yugioh/MTG community would it utterly ridiculous that you would bring it up.

It isn't selective math. You've just become so accustomed to a meta where everyone is so poor or runs junk lists (especially that Wraithknight story you told, where nobody in their right mind would do something so blasted stupid and bonkers) that YOU think you're enlightened. I've attended MANY local tournaments too, and have won them. Yet I don't have to try and tout that as a reason to listen to me, as I've got math and common sense backing me up instead.

So yes, somebody needs to just kick your ass at Vassal and call it a day. If I have my laptop fixed at any near point in the future, it will be me.

"Expense", and "mono-build" aren't arguments against competitiveness. So... what was your point?

Your only statement is "meta sucks". Weak sauce dude. But I am looking forward tothe BAO. PM me so we can arrange that ticket. I got no problem with competing on your dime.

 Jancoran wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Ah, I went off of the post where you listed the three armies you faced. I didn't see you mention an ork walker force.

Well, Orks are a bad dex, and the walkers are some of their worst units...so not surprised at all that you won then. More surprised that a tournament featured an Ork walker list and a CSM force at all, tbh.

Right, against an incredibly slow walker force, with some of the worst walkers in the game, I'm no longer surprised you were able to hide.
If you had been able to hide from drop pods, teleporting centstars, and knights, I would be surprised.

Again, no one is surprised you beat the Ork dex. It's also in the running for one of the worst dexes around, and the walkers are some of the worst units in it.

Mm hm. So just to ferret out what you just said:

1. You arent fully reading the (multiple)posts wherein i clarified this and that is why the conversation left you behind. Yet you're responding which means you're busy with an agenda, instead of reading to meditate on things.

No offense, but you are very hard to follow and in multiple threads. I mostly reply when I'm at school in a lab waiting for an experiment to die down, or when students are taking a test.
It'd help if you were a little clearer and DIDNT do THIS all THE time.

 Jancoran wrote:

2. Which codex is supposed to win? Now ORKS is worse than Chaos? And I suppose Tyranids was and I suppose any other codex I beat was too?

You didn't read what I said. At all, so I'll spell it out for you.
Orks are in the running for the worst dex.
Orks, BA, CSM are probably the worst dexes in the game. Many of their options are limited and their overall power is awful, even with their best builds.
IG and DE are above them. A lot of their options are bad but they seem to be slightly better against the better dexes (though not much worse).
So if you went up against a bad build (walkers and their LoW are some of the worst units in their dex) with the powerbuild from an equally bad dex...yeah. I'd expect you to win.

What was the tyranid list, or was that posted too?
Before you comment, Tyranids are a bad codex.
Not in terms of power level (their best builds are quite strong, and can compete with the top dexes and their builds pretty well) but a ton of their options are awful.
So a good build from tyranids can beat most of the CSM dex, but a bad build from dex (say a genestealer spam army) would be an even fight.

 Jancoran wrote:

3. You dont know what you're talking about. that formation for orks is actually great, and a hard counter for my army. You can SAY whatever you want to the contrary. but even managing the clock well as I did, the proof was in the pudding.

If it was a hard counter, why did you win? Do you know what a hard counter means?
And any army that spams 2HP walkers that rely on cover saves is not a hard counter to someone that has the eye of night. You have a 66% per walker to kill each one, and with how cheap they are he has to cluster them up. You could do some serious damage from T1...which is what happened...
if anything, you are a hard counter to him.
And no offense, but hard countering the CSM dex doesn't make you a good formation. Being hard countered by the BL supplement, though, is just awful. You'll notice most of the good dexes and formations and armies don't rely on tanks to do the heavy lifting (except one, where they are free).
Any army that loses to cents and scat bikes (being av 11 with 2 HP is terrible) isn't a good army in this meta. Tau and Necrons would love to see the wall against them as well.

 Jancoran wrote:

4. Who gives a rip what some OTHER force might have required of me. THIS was the challenge in front of me. THIS was the force that steam rolled through the first two opponents. So you can enter pretend land and say "some other force would have done better" but not so shockingly, you can't prove that nor say it and be fair minded. You also can't make the magical perfect counter to my army be the one that apperars at ANY tournament any more than they can at Adepticon. So I mean...

I haven't suggested any army against this.
If you mean the IG blob, I suggested 20 scat bikes at 1850. Considering you posted a build for eldar that consisted of 15 scat bikes at 1500, I don't feel that was list tailoring or excessive.
Honestly though, looking at this list, I think a teleporting centstar with a strong biker force and some pods would walk over it. It's a pretty standard SM tournament build (didn't you say you faced a Centstar with another army?).

If you want to claim a force is competitive, it should have a gameplan that isn't scooping against the stronger commonly seen lists.

Hehehe. So uh... Now its confusing to read DakkaDakka posts you responded to? Eh...

Your opinion of codex power values is... fine. It wont save you. So opine away.

The Tyranid list wasn't difficult. I already said what it was: Genestealer cult. and I didn't struggle with it other than insofar as it was hard to kill since he had larger units of them than normal but other than that it was just a matter of time.

And you... literally...havent spent any time with my list if you think that Dread mob wasnt a hard counter. So whatevs. Akiasura, I wish you good luck in your classroom.

And you're muddying the waters here: The Sisters of Battle fought what all would consider very competitive builds and it was only pointed out to you because of your constant and unjustified attack on our meta. I'll avoid the gratuitous name cropping just because it will only diverge us further. Pretty sure you'd know them.

I think the main problem, Jancoran, is that you haven't shown how a CSM is equal in power to Eldar, C:SM and Necrons.

If they aren't on an even level, then, given that players are equal skill, the Eldear, marines and Necrons should win more often.
Do you deny this?
If you do, then I think that what you're saying is that power levels of different codexes aren't that big of a factor in determining the winner.
Is that closer to what you're saying?
Because I'm having a hard time understand exactly what you're trying to state. Can you say it simply and directly?

I didn't read all the 10 pages, but, I think, what Jancoran try to explain isn't that Chaos is "top-tier" ,"godlike" "good" or whatever, but just, even if it is a bit more difficult than with others, still able to win tournaments.
So it's not complete trash/garbage, as one can do good things wiht this codex.
Contrary of what people seems to say (like it's totaly unplayable).

 Jancoran wrote:
Hehehe. So uh... Now its confusing to read DakkaDakka posts you responded to? Eh...

To be sure, I just re-read what I had originally quoted.
You merely state it was your game on saturday, and that you played your CSM army. You never mentioned the opponent.

 Jancoran wrote:

Your opinion of codex power values is... fine. It wont save you. So opine away.

I wasn't aware I needed saving, but okay.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Tyranid list wasn't difficult. I already said what it was: Genestealer cult. and I didn't struggle with it other than insofar as it was hard to kill since he had larger units of them than normal but other than that it was just a matter of time.

I'd honestly be surprised if anyone struggled facing genestealers, since they are terrible and have been for some time now.
As an owner of a nids army since third, I can tell you...genestealers have fallen a long way from the terror they once were. They are so bad now, I haven't played them more than once in any edition since 5th. Now the nids codex is all about FMC spam with some other MCs backing it up. I preferred the horde from last edition, but eh.

 Jancoran wrote:

And you... literally...havent spent any time with my list if you think that Dread mob wasnt a hard counter. So whatevs. Akiasura, I wish you good luck in your classroom.

What about what I detailed was wrong?
The eye of night is a large blast that ignores cover causing d3 penetrating hits. It can be fired from across the table, and with a lord firing it, scatters very little on average.
A dread mob is a horde of Av 11 HP 2 walkers that rely on the KFF and cover to survive.
You ignore their one method of living to reach your lines in melee (since they aren't great in shooting, nor really fast they need to get to CC where they are actually good) and on a 66% chance kill them. On a 33%, you leave them as easy pickings.
A dread mob doesn't have the firepower required to kill rhinos when spammed, since it has a decent amount of high strength in accurate shooting. For transport removal, you really want Str 6-7 spammed like crazy, and hopefully it's accurate.

Again, you were more of a hard counter to his list then the other way around. Case in point, you won, and did a lot of damage right at the start. A hard counter to your list would be the teleporting centstar, since everything in your army has a good save, it ignores your higher toughness, and you can't hide from it no matter how fast you are, and I don't think it cares much about your CC punch.

Your list is bad because the competitive builds don't care about anti-tank only fire, and generally run GMC's or really tough fast troops, and your list can't stop it.

 Jancoran wrote:

And you're muddying the waters here: The Sisters of Battle fought what all would consider very competitive builds and it was only pointed out to you because of your constant and unjustified attack on our meta. I'll avoid the gratuitous name cropping just because it will only diverge us further. Pretty sure you'd know them.

Name away then. It would only help your case.
Again, it seems very strange that an Ork Dread Mob and a Centstar would be seen in the same meta if both players are competitive. A centstar, scat bike spam, necron anything, tau anything pretty much walk all over a dread mob without trying.
If you are going to claim CSM are good, put them against the better builds. Not the dread mob and a genestealer cult

 MWHistorian wrote:
given that players are equal skill

I think there's 2 arguments going on. One where we assume player skill matters, and one where it's assumed player skill is irrelevant.

In terms of TT results, the latter is clearly not the case

Yoyoyo wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
given that players are equal skill

I think there's 2 arguments going on. One where we assume player skill matters, and one where it's assumed player skill is irrelevant.

In terms of TT results, the latter is clearly not the case

That seems to be kind of strawmanning the argument. The argument isn't "Skill means absolutely nothing." Jancoran is claiming that there's NO or very little gap in performance between CSM lists and top-tier tournament cheese. The argument is: "can ANY purely CSM list regularly compete with one of the top-tier, cheese filled tournament lists (Necron Decurion, etc?) and win a reasonable percentage of games? How do CSM stack up against 2nd tier lists? What does the skill gap need to be between the commanders before the CSM commander can win regularly?" Now, we haven't done a very good job of establishing what that reasonable percentage is, but given that we've seen ZERO official CSM tournament winners or even top tenners in tournaments big enough to have results published online... I'd say it's a tough sell that CSM are tournament competitive. Jancoran only has his personal experiences to back his claim, without any hard evidence or anyone else to support them.

Let me put it another way: when I'm choosing allies for my daemons and I need to choose between my Traitor Guard and CSM, I choose Guard every time. ing IG. Not exactly renowned in current meta. But they look awesome compared to CSM. That should tell you something right there.

On another note, SoB's are nowhere near as bad as some people seem to think they are. MSU and Excorcists pack a pretty decent punch. Not great, but not horrible.

Sisters of battle are trash, but in the perspective of options and HQ survivability. It's very sad when their army is essentially Space Marines -3, and costs you higher then FW army prices. Literally: I took my future sisters army savings and bought word Bearer legion model upgrades, and saved loottts of money.

Back on daemons taking CSM: what do daemons need to have a balanced army? In my experience its more covering mid range fire as well as high S long range weapons. That's easily solved with traitor guard, either as IG or Renegades and Heretics. Want chaos marines specifically? Take a corrupted legion from 30k, and watch them actually Get Things Done

autumnlotus wrote:
Sisters of battle are trash, but in the perspective of options and HQ survivability. It's very sad when their army is essentially Space Marines -3, and costs you higher then FW army prices. Literally: I took my future sisters army savings and bought word Bearer legion model upgrades, and saved loottts of money.

Back on daemons taking CSM: what do daemons need to have a balanced army? In my experience its more covering mid range fire as well as high S long range weapons. That's easily solved with traitor guard, either as IG or Renegades and Heretics. Want chaos marines specifically? Take a corrupted legion from 30k, and watch them actually Get Things Done

This actually sucks because I've considered a SOB army after I do my Dark Eldar. The fact that I could start a FW 30k army for cheaper is just depressing. To get back on topic though. CSM can still build a relatively mean list. It just can't compete with the new shiny shiny that is the Necron-Tau 7.5 codices, which is rather sad, CSM probably should be a top army. Veterans of 10k years of warfare and they get ROFLstomped by most everybody.