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Saying it doesn't meet his criterion is a junk excuse on your end. You know damn well what a battle report should encompass.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


Well, technically you said dominion and not dominions, so you certainly suggested one squad. I think I showed one squad couldn't do it with a reasonable chance of success
Or did you mean something else?
.

Dominion is plural also.

Here is a sentence to illustrate this point: "The Dominion in the force do well".

I wasn't aware they gave out the conjugation for these things, and to be honest, I can't say I care much (science professors usually have a negative opinion of philosophy majors and english...anything really, ime). It was a bit tongue in cheek, I'll make sure to include a emoticon for you next time so you don't take it so personally (I saw the unedited version).

Are you going to point out the flaw in the math now?

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura 669194 8254883 wrote:
I am trying to be civil here, .

We disagree on this point. Probably why I have taken the liberty of perhaps needling you too harshly? My apologies.

I haven't insulted you at any point, unless you consider a casual meta an insult. You can't say the same however.
Let's try to be a bit more civil.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


If you could link to a single battle report of you facing Decurion... etc...etc... .

I did provide some. They dont meet your criterion. Sorry. Repeating the request mwont make me more able to say yes. And you've asked several times. I have the ones I posted. That's all.

Okay, I just wanted to clear. You made it seem like it was there but I was incapable of reading it/finding it.

While I appreciate you telling us about some of your other battles (and honestly, your meta sounds a lot more fun than mine) it doesn't really have anything to do with what was originally claimed; CSM need to spam nurgle to be competitive, and even with nurgle spam, can not compete against the top armies and their power builds.

EDIT

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

...you didn't write a report when you faced what is highly regarded as the toughest match ups for the CSM codex?
If you didn't, just say so.

I did. Multiple times now. Go back and read the multiple times if you like. There isn't one. I don't write these things for everry game I play! Sheesh. Do you?

No, but I'm not asking for all your games to be recorded. I asked for a single example against any of the power builds currently in the meta, since you said you faced them in your meta. I also don't use my personal examples as arguments for why a unit is good without detailed examples of what strategies I used and how the math plays out. If you're going to do that, it helps to have a battle report. Otherwise it's just a claim no one can look at.

Since your blog advertises itself as being unorthodox tactics that work, I thought you might have an example of how to take on the power builds people are currently having issues with so we can see what you are doing. If you don't, that's fine, but you'll have to give detailed examples of what strategy you used or show some math that supports you before most of us will believe you.

So, to sum up, Jancoran uses a crap list against poor opponents and claims its competitive. He then says he has proof, but fails to supply any battle reports that actually tell or show anything. He also refuses to say how he manages these amazing feats of crap units killing far superior ones.
Give facts and evidence and maybe people will take you seriously.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Saying it doesn't meet his criterion is a junk excuse on your end. You know damn well what a battle report should encompass.

Wait... Haven't you heard? Wins don't prove nuthin'!!! A batrep is just a much longer version of "I won".

Oh man. And you know what else? Batreps are suuuuuuper "anecdotal" too.

I'll be sure to get that batrep done right away though.

 Arkaine wrote:

They can't copy your strategies without a full batrep to dissect what makes you win. The arguments are in order to force you to disclose in full easily digestible detail how to make a better CSM army. Best way to get a MtG player to share his secrets is by insulting his deck. You already listed the army itself, now they keep fighting to understand what they are supposed to do with it to win. The ones who already know how to play the game have left the topic after seeing the list, having decided for themselves whether you were right or not long ago. All that remains are those hunting effective strategies. The quest for knowledge leads fanboys to become rabid.

You mean like this post from page 4 or so? Wherein I explained how it kinda works? Because I did actually post this along with quite a few other comments about its use. Its not as if i didnt take the time.

Heres the post:


Well Im definitely not offering up a "win all the time" promise here. No army can have that so you will suffer defeats no matter what you do.

But here is the Night Lords list I have been slowly marinating into form. this is the final form as it stands now and its pretty optimized for what it attempts to do.

Essentially the Rhinos hve Dirge Casters to stop s much overwatch as they can from things like Dark Angels and Tau Empire. They provide cover if destroyed or immolbilized. i try to jet them up to the 30 inch mark ASAP.

The Raptors bounce behind them, moving and runing to keep up with the Rhinos in round one. Both units are fearless (I learned over the course of time not to leave this to chance) with their respective Chaos Lords. Thoe lords are more than fast enough to keep up obviously.

The other units are MEANT to deep strike, raining in from all angles and making escape impossible, forming my box of doom, so to speak. I have on occassion deployed the Obliterators but the range on MOST of their weapons isn't excellent so I definitely lean more often to deep striking them into position.

The Chaos Marines will often be deployed in reserve to wait for objectives til after the enemy has been tenderized. On occassion i will actually mount them in the rhinos. Objective placement largely determines that for me.

So that is the basic setup.

The Chaos Lord has the Eye of Night. If the enemy has his armor close together, he will pay dearly. Large blast on BS 5. Does D3 penetrating hits (ignores cover) against the targets hit by it. It's a nice way to start the festivities. He also carries the Hand of Darkness. It replaces his attacks with one attack, but that one attack is Instant Death, Armoudbane, fleshbane, STR 8, AP 1 and is generally really really unpleasant. He can frustrate you at times. I had the chance to ill BOTH Dreadknights in a list the other day and he flubbed both rolls over two different combat phases and eventually bit it. I still won 20-5 but that was a bitter pill! Still, most of the time he's hitting on 3's so it works more often than it doesn't.

The second Chaos Lord is just happy to be here. i would generally want him to be my warlord since the other one is bound to be in danger. it's his middle name.

Heldrakes are great against Hive Tyrants (and the like) with their extra cool Vector Strikes and obviously the flamer needs no introduction. With the saturation level generally good, the Heldrake enjoys a bit more of a lifespan than they typically will. It has won some games for me with its ability to hover. that plays pretty big in a list like this where so much of your list is upfield that the backfield Chaos Marines need a little help sometimes on objectives when they come in.

Anywho Night Lords isn't one of the most powerful builds in 40K, but it does work. Its main struggle comes against AV 14, ince it isnt a melta fest like so may lists. It has some but its not prolific so we do al or most of our damage in the close combat phase. That actually works just fine. But its worth noting that a unit of 3 Space Marine Dreadnoughts is going to challenge us. I fought a guy with 9, plus two land Raiders and it was tough to get close (so i didnt). I ended the game killing one tactical marine (which sent his unit flying off the board to be fair from my Mutilator) but that was it. Yet i still tied the game and should have won (Needed just one hull point off the Land Raider, nd couldnt get it despite never losing my Obliterators). A little bad luck and a lot of good planning put me in good position even in that matchup.

So speed and maneuverability are the keys for this force. It can scatter from threats it needs to get more time against and it can bull rush those it can handle. it traps the enemy "over yonder" and doesnt let them out of our box, which makes objectives happen.


Night Lords Total Roster Cost: 1996

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

76pts 1 Obliterator (Mark of Nurgle)

75pts 4 Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

75pts 4 Chaos Space Marines
1 Aspiring Champion
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

80pts 4 Chaos Space Marines [Black Legion] (Veterans of the Long War)
1 Aspiring Champion (Veterans of the Long War)
40pts 1 Chaos Rhino (Dirge Caster)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

61pts 1 Mutilator, (Mark of Nurgle)

130pts 1 Chaos Lord (Nurgle, Jump Pack, Sigil of Corruption, Powerfist+ Combi Melta)

285pts 1 Chaos Lord (HQ) [Black Legion], 160 pts (Mark of Nurgle + Blight Grenades+ Melta Bombs + Sigil of Corruption + Combi-Meltagun+ Veterans of the Long War) + Chaos Bike + 1 The Eye of Night + The Hand of Darkness

330pts 13 Raptors (Mark of Nurgle) + Meltagun x2
1 Raptor Champion (Melta Bombs + Mark of Nurgle + Power Axe x1)

330pts 13 Raptors (Mark of Nurgle) + Meltagun x2
1 Raptor Champion (Melta Bombs + Mark of Nurgle + Power Axe x1)

170pts 1 Heldrake

I can't believe this argument is still going on. Why do people even entertain this? Dude says that Chaos is a competetive army that can win major tourneys.... Proceeds to post a list with 3 units of Mutilators, one of the worst units in the book. He's obviously trolling or making stuff up. Next thing you know he will post his list where he spams Warp Talons and Thousand Sons.

I have about 50k points worth of Chaos models... I've played Just about every possible combo in a CSM army. Is it possible to win with? Absolutely. You are at a MAJOR disadvantage in the major tourneys though. Playing with CSM is playing on hard mode.
What does CSM do good? Well, for me, it taught me to really learn the rules and concentrate on tactics.... Even if you play a perfect game with CSM, against the top tier armies, chances are you will lose. You just can't bring the bodies or the firepower of the top tier armies. If you bring some Forgeworld, you have a much better chance, but you're still at a disadvantage.

Single mutilators have a place in an army with multiple deep strikers that's ran out of heavy slots. Not saying its mathematically winningest, nor other units can't do a similar niche though. Lets not go into that tangent?

Mutilators are an Elite slot

 Arkaine wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Other links are in the sig. he couldnt be bothered to scroll down like five pics to find the one of my army vs. Decurion but he's going to read an entire batrep? I have my doubts.

They can't copy your strategies without a full batrep to dissect what makes you win. The arguments are in order to force you to disclose in full easily digestible detail how to make a better CSM army. Best way to get a MtG player to share his secrets is by insulting his deck. You already listed the army itself, now they keep fighting to understand what they are supposed to do with it to win. The ones who already know how to play the game have left the topic after seeing the list, having decided for themselves whether you were right or not long ago. All that remains are those hunting effective strategies. The quest for knowledge leads fanboys to become rabid.

Can't tell if this is sarcasm or straw-manning to the extreme

As always it's interesting to see what people will argue about on the internet, so minor nitpick here, but assuming that the Sisters of Battle Dominions are named after the Angelic Choir (not unreasonable, I think, given their ostensibly religious flavouring and the fact that they also have a unit called "Seraphim") Dominions in that case are usually pluralized with an "s", to the best of my knowledge, as in "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

Anyway...

I'll conclude by asking - why is this argument still going on? If Jancoran is massacring every opponent he comes across with a super mega awesome Night Lords army of doom more power to him. The fact remains that the Chaos Space Marines codex is presently both one of the oldest and least effective books currently available, and one player having success with it is not really indicative of the opposite. It would be equally ludicrous to suggest that the Eldar are underpowered and in desperate need of a buff because there's one player on the internet who claims to be doing very poorly with them.

 godardc wrote:
I didn't read all the 10 pages, but, I think, what Jancoran try to explain isn't that Chaos is "top-tier" ,"godlike" "good" or whatever, but just, even if it is a bit more difficult than with others, still able to win tournaments.
So it's not complete trash/garbage, as one can do good things wiht this codex.
Contrary of what people seems to say (like it's totaly unplayable).

this....also as a long time csm geneal I can also attest to beating numerous power lists because of band wagon jumping generals. you know, TFG who jumps from net list to net list, army to army looking for tne "i win" button instead of becoming proficient with an army. knowing your own armies strengths/weaknesses and identifying proper target priority can go a long way in any meta.

 quickfuze wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I didn't read all the 10 pages, but, I think, what Jancoran try to explain isn't that Chaos is "top-tier" ,"godlike" "good" or whatever, but just, even if it is a bit more difficult than with others, still able to win tournaments.
So it's not complete trash/garbage, as one can do good things wiht this codex.
Contrary of what people seems to say (like it's totaly unplayable).

this....also as a long time csm geneal I can also attest to beating numerous power lists because of band wagon jumping generals. you know, TFG who jumps from net list to net list, army to army looking for tne "i win" button instead of becoming proficient with an army. knowing your own armies strengths/weaknesses and identifying proper target priority can go a long way in any meta.

It's not about him winning against others, it's the ludicrous claims he makes. Is it possible to win with CSM? Sure. Saying you're going to beat every Eldar cheese list out there with your less than efficient list is dubious.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
He's obviously trolling or making stuff up.

Be careful when you say that, mods are giving out bans for calling Jancoran a troll these days.

Those lone Mutilators functioned a lot like Lictors in that battle report vs 6th Ed Mechdar. Cool to see!

I don't give a rat's fart about how well, if at all, CSM's can compete in the top end "Tournament" optimisation style of game play... Personally it's not my cup of tea.

Can Chaos Marines cope with the most rank levels of supreme gouda? Not at all. We're over 3 years behind the times, with a play style & options that are still stuck in 3rd/early 4th edition. Without extreme luck, bad play by opponents, highly favourable missions & house/comp rules, Chaos in general just isn't at the same level as the new Decurion/Gladius/Hunter Cadre levels of madness.
Daemons can still pull their own, if you enjoy being heavily restrictive in your lists building. IA:13 helps the Mortal cause some. Khornekin has the Gorepack & army-wide FnP and can pull some tricks with MSU shenanigans.

Overall though, Chaos on the whole is in a crap spot of having the fewest toys nowadays when compared to everyone else.

I still have plenty of options with my Daemons in general sure, but that's where it really ends...
Getting the Forgeworld stuff shipped to Canada is ludicrously expensive. Chaos Marines haven't seen a single new weapon upgrade option in over 15 fething years! They're the blandest, most stale army going. (outside of Sisters - yet even they've had more upgrade options than Chaos Marines have had!!)
We still don't have proper options for Radical Inquisitors and Traitor Guardsmen.

I just want to see Chaos Marines get some new toys... Heavy/Hand flamers, our own unique Grav equivalents, more heavy weapon options in general, new Termie heavy weapon(s), some new choppy tools such as Eviscerators, 'Unholy' Relic blade equivalents, etc...
Alongside our own Rhino AND unique Land Raider varients, as well as some added polish to our daemon engines.

It really feels like what we're honestly "best" at right now, is being the oldest & crappiest model line available! I want to see us brought out of 2001 and into 2015/16 dammit!!

Yoyoyo wrote:
Those lone Mutilators functioned a lot like Lictors in that battle report vs 6th Ed Mechdar. Cool to see!

The lictors existed as 50 point Locator Beacons for Mawlocs, which pulled the weight of the list with the Flyrants.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

Is it possible to win with? Absolutely. .

Which is what I have been saying. Others have expanded what Im saying to be a lot more grandiose but as you see in this post, I dont make wild claims or primacy. I simply said what you just said.

Lol.

All the rest was just explanation and defense of that point.

 jreilly89 wrote:


I
Is it possible to win with CSM? Sure.

Exactly. All these "ludicrous claims" are just me telling you what has happened. I have not engaged in any hyperbole. I just told you that you can win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Those lone Mutilators functioned a lot like Lictors in that battle report vs 6th Ed Mechdar. Cool to see!

They surprise me with how useful they turned out to be. they are a necessary ingredient for this list becaue a second cad would tax me another Chaos Marine squad

It is entirely possible to win any game with a single marine, how possible you ask? Well in an 1850 game against a top tier army I would say it is less than .1%.

The whole argument is irrelevant, I've beaten decurion lists that are competitive with my Chaos army.

How many attempts did it take to finally win? Approximately 8 games...

I think the issue really is that in order for the game to even have a hope of being called balanced, you should have no less than a 25% chance of winning assuming average rolls being used regardless or Army composition.

What we are seeing is not even close to that.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Mutilators are an Elite slot

I'm confused by this post. It's so self obvious I feel I must be missing something?

 Konrax wrote:
It is entirely possible to win any game with a single marine, how possible you ask? Well in an 1850 game against a top tier army I would say it is less than .1%.

The whole argument is irrelevant, I've beaten decurion lists that are competitive with my Chaos army.

How many attempts did it take to finally win? Approximately 8 games...

I think the issue really is that in order for the game to even have a hope of being called balanced, you should have no less than a 25% chance of winning assuming average rolls being used regardless or Army composition.

What we are seeing is not even close to that.

The only way I had won games is list tailoring. Which was encouraged by friends I play with due to the lack of updates. They are currently playing Dark Angles, Necrons, Tau and Eldar. I won two games out of an entire weekend of gaming we had recently and even then it was but the skin of my teeth and a SUPER lucky soul blaze roll that took off the last HP for a Slay the warlord and capping a objective. Tzeentch blessed me that day.

From Friday to Sunday night I played around 12 games. The rest of the games were a joke.

You should at least have a reasonable chance at winning a game against an equally competitive build.

I dislike list tailoring but my group usually self caps the cheese unless we are having a power cheese game.

CSM is hardmode if you go pure.

There are a few gems in the codex, even under rated ones like deep striking lone mutilators, but they aren't enough to carry the codex to victory.

Yea- my bad. I realize now what you were saying... I misread it , thought you were saying it was good to fill in a HS slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:
Mutilators are an Elite slot

I'm confused by this post. It's so self obvious I feel I must be missing something?

Misread what you were saying- my bad

 Vash108 wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
It is entirely possible to win any game with a single marine, how possible you ask? Well in an 1850 game against a top tier army I would say it is less than .1%.

The whole argument is irrelevant, I've beaten decurion lists that are competitive with my Chaos army.

How many attempts did it take to finally win? Approximately 8 games...

I think the issue really is that in order for the game to even have a hope of being called balanced, you should have no less than a 25% chance of winning assuming average rolls being used regardless or Army composition.

What we are seeing is not even close to that.

The only way I had won games is list tailoring. Which was encouraged by friends I play with due to the lack of updates. They are currently playing Dark Angles, Necrons, Tau and Eldar. I won two games out of an entire weekend of gaming we had recently and even then it was but the skin of my teeth and a SUPER lucky soul blaze roll that took off the last HP for a Slay the warlord and capping a objective. Tzeentch blessed me that day.

From Friday to Sunday night I played around 12 games. The rest of the games were a joke.

Unfortunate. Sounds like a change of strategy might help. You play Tzeentch, which I know is a real low model count, so it can be a tougher matchup. Do you have your list? I am curious to see it since there are sooooo few Thousand Sons players.

Oh yea, they would be terrible to fill HS with. Not bad for a cheap distraction unit that can potentially hurt anything though.

Cheapest way for CSM to man a gun emplacement with BS4 too :p.

 Konrax wrote:


There are a few gems in the codex, even under rated ones like deep striking lone mutilators, but they aren't enough to carry the codex to victory.

Good thing they aren't alone!






Automatically Appended Next Post:

nareik wrote:
Oh yea, they would be terrible to fill HS with. Not bad for a cheap distraction unit that can potentially hurt anything though.

Cheapest way for CSM to man a gun emplacement with BS4 too :p.

Hilarious. Hadn't thought of it (Probably because i rarely if ever have the gun emplacement) but that is true!

See ive also.had some weird experiances with csm. Ibe noticed if i go pure Nurgle i lose alot more than when i go undivided lulz

@Jancoran: is there a way to get Cursed Earth into your Night Lords list? You've got so many Daemon and DS'ing units I wonder if it might come in handy. Meanwhile you've already got a threat overload theme going on, so at worst the Summoning primaris will pull fire off the Oblits and Mutilators.

Your list really looks a lot like Lictorshame, in terms of dangerous single-models with good deployment options, and unappetizing Obsec. You can't replicate the Flyrants, though the Eye of Night Chaos Lord and Heldrakes are kind of close to Mawlocs. Or maybe I have an active imagination but whatever.

I'm trying to brainstorm: in the CS supplement you could get a Malefic Sorc with Prophet of the Voices, an Obsec Possessed Retinue, and an extra Mutilator and Oblit to saturate the field with. That means you've now got mobility + exposure issues to solve with the Possessed. So maybe a Bastion with Comms and an Escape Hatch? Maybe summon a Herald with the Grimoire, if you generate Sacrifice?

You'd have to swap out the PF Lord, the Raptor squad and CSM squad and Rhino. In return you get the Prophet Sorc, 10x Obsec Possessed, an Oblit, a Mutilator, and a Bastion with Comms and the Hatch. I'm not sure if this is actually viable, as the Possessed random table and Psychic generation will probably undermine planning. But hey maybe there's some ideas you can use. I mean, Lictorshame started out as epic trolling and won LVO. So maybe even though 4x Mutilators, 4x Oblits and 10x Possessed looks ridiculous and terrible, you can get some cool ideas working that nobody else has thought of yet. And if it's got any potential you can work in heavy hitters like Be'lakor and Fateweaver, I don't think that's going against your creative ethic. Just some thoughts away from the usual drama.

You do have an active imagination because I told you what the Lictors actually did in that Tyranid list...

Yoyoyo wrote:
@Jancoran: is there a way to get Cursed Earth into your Night Lords list? You've got so many Daemon and DS'ing units I wonder if it might come in handy. Meanwhile you've already got a threat overload theme going on, so at worst the Summoning primaris will pull fire off the Oblits and Mutilators.

Your list really looks a lot like Lictorshame, in terms of dangerous single-models with good deployment options, and unappetizing Obsec. You can't replicate the Flyrants, though the Eye of Night Chaos Lord and Heldrakes are kind of close to Mawlocs. Or maybe I have an active imagination but whatever.

I'm trying to brainstorm: in the CS supplement you could get a Malefic Sorc with Prophet of the Voices, an Obsec Possessed Retinue, and an extra Mutilator and Oblit to saturate the field with. That means you've now got mobility + exposure issues to solve with the Possessed. So maybe a Bastion with Comms and an Escape Hatch? Maybe summon a Herald with the Grimoire, if you generate Sacrifice?

You'd have to swap out the PF Lord, the Raptor squad and CSM squad and Rhino. In return you get the Prophet Sorc, 10x Obsec Possessed, an Oblit, a Mutilator, and a Bastion with Comms and the Hatch. I'm not sure if this is actually viable, as the Possessed random table and Psychic generation will probably undermine planning. But hey maybe there's some ideas you can use. I mean, Lictorshame started out as epic trolling and won LVO. So maybe even though 4x Mutilators, 4x Oblits and 10x Possessed looks ridiculous and terrible, you can get some cool ideas working that nobody else has thought of yet. And if it's got any potential you can work in heavy hitters like Be'lakor and Fateweaver, I don't think that's going against your creative ethic. Just some thoughts away from the usual drama.

Very constructive and you brought up something I had not seen before there in the Cursed Earth Department.

Lictorshame is an extremely analogous army build really. The similarities are in its strategy but it also does indeed look a bit like mine in makeup. Hadn't considered that connction but you're not wrong. And it did indeed win LVO. The form isn't the same even though the function is.

Why a full 10 Possessed? Are you doing that because they are Daemons also and would become hard to kill with Cursed Earth? I can see why that would be attractive. Getting them into position migh have been at a fairly steep cost to the list though right? I mean what you're proposing is pretty interesting. I know it would not be a Night Lords army of course at this point, but an entirely different army build. Nonetheless, if it's effective, who cares.

I'll have to ponder that. What is its answer to a Wraith Knight? Wraith Knights can be defeated in two ways. First the ycan be given no target and then swamped with Fearless stuff after the game is too far advanced for it to kill them all and still matter on objectives. the second is to actually kill it (der). Either way neuters its effect to one unit potetnially. How does this list of yurs propose to do that? The speed of the army would not be as great, obviously so getting away from the faster enemies or getting to them is an issue.


anywho, interesting ideas.

The GW logo now has a Chaos star in it. C... Could this be? Are the dark god about to bless us?