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Aye, like dropping Berzerkers to A1 so they could toss in Rage and counterattack, effectively nerfing them for subsequent rounds of combat beyond the first, but letting the writers use the new 6E functionality in the first book of the edition.

It would be nice to actually not have to have a mostly cookie cutter chaos list for once. Where multiple builds are viable. A man can dream.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Yup, especially with the rate of the codex drops, things CERTAINLY changed.

But often change just for change's sake. It's seldom an improvement.

Again and predictably, we don't agree. I'm not really down on it like you. I don't get the negativity given how much we seem to care. Certainly enough to keep this forum alive and well.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

There is a feel that genestealers, lictors, and carnifexes (some of the more popular models) have been bad for a while now at their intended role (lictors are basically teleport homers).

Meanwhile, SM gained two deathstar units and a host of special characters ...but those who like Tau Empire over Tau are still suffering a bit since the kroot and vespids still aren't great (I remember when Kroot were really amazing, for a brief time).

I do not know if 7th will save GW or not, o.

Games Workshop is more than fine. For the moment. They took a huge hit and will keep doing so on Fantasy. However their 40K line has saved them.

Really? Did the new financials come out and were really positive?
I didn't see the latest report if so. The last report I saw was GW was losing revenue despite the new rapid releases. I didn't think they gave detailed reports of how fantasy compared to 40k is doing either.
Interesting if true though. I'm surprised there wasn't a thread about it.

 Jancoran wrote:

Tyranids (and Lictors particularly won the LVO) have won big time tournaments. So I disagree there.

There are a few things to look at here.
The Lictors didn't win it for the list. The major damage dealers were the mawlocs and flyrants, with lictors absorbing fire, acting as beacons, and running around being extremely annoying.
The Necrons book released around that time, and I don't believe the decurion was featured in the LVO. I believe the eldar and marines book came out much later. I think we can all agree the necrons, eldar, and marines have gone up in power quite a bit with their new book. The centstar is a deathstar that can tackle two units a turn anywhere on the map, and is relatively cheap, for example. Min size squads of bikers also do very well against MSU, while before MSU was a great counter to the huge deathstars that were common.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Tyranid codex as a whole was a bit surprising in how mild it was, though i dont feel it left it unable to compete (since some really value "big tournament" outcomes and we know it has done that). It just Reeeeeealy has to have three Flyrants if you dont Lictorshame someone. I am sad to say that Tyranids got boxed in to NidZilla. Having said that, they aren't so bad at it once they have their Flyrants. There's a guy here on Dakkadakka that plays the clock really well with his and wins a lot so it can play but... I really think Tyranid players are owed a little for their loyalty at this stage.

Which is no different from what I said. The vast majority of the tyranid codex is bad, with really flyrants, mawlocs, and a handful of other units being really good.
Compare this to the earlier era, where you had Nidzilla in force, mutations on everything, genestealer with brood lords (or just genestealers if you go back far enough)...the Nid codex loses variety in every iteration.
Which is all I was originally claiming. It can certainly compete using it's power units over and over. I just get worried, since the last two codex releases saw me shelfing more and more of the dex.

 Jancoran wrote:

Lol. I know I haven't been beaten by the Tyranids in quite a long time, not since the new codex came. The closest call was a Triple Flyrant list and it took me to the wire, because that Psychic Scream variant they have can do some serious and sudden damage to you when it rolls well and sometimes it DOES roll well. There's other reasons too: they have an interesting Null deployment they can do which keeps them in games surprisingly well. That build has also done well because it allows the Tyranid to absolutely massacre a given sector of the board that it wants to, instead of having to take the attrition battle from the word go. So yeah I've seen innovative Generals doing good things with them.

A triple flyrant list isn't really new or original. Spamming flyrants have been what you do with the nids codex shortly after it released.
If he won with a hormie horde or a old fashioned nidzilla list, that would be original and interesting. Or a genestealer list.

 Jancoran wrote:

Tyranids won the 2014 Elvensword Ambssadorial Tournament not so far removed from the releae of the most recent codex. So there's that also.

Again, no one is questioning the power of the tyranid codex. Flyrants are very good. That also would not include the newer codexes as well.
It's the vast majority of the codex that is bad, not the few units we see over and over.

 Jancoran wrote:

I don't care that Space Marines got {fill in the blanks} first. Necrons and Eldar did before that and everyone is getting similar things now so like i said: Just a matter of time. Don't let envy getcha down. Company Support Rule is really dumb. fortunately its easy to exclude them from tournament play. But I saw one played at a prep tournament I ran in September, where i allowed it. It got completely wrecked in its second game and eked out a tie in the third. Turns out, moving that much armor isnt as easy in reality as it looks on paper. =) And if kill points are an issue, as they were in the "Total War " Scenario I ran (which the players knew beforehand was a mission) well...

You say that, but for many dexes it's been since 3rd edition that they've had a good codex that allows a variety of builds. 10-15 years of waiting for a good codex to come back around, when many other armies, like eldar, keep getting really good dexes.
There is no guarantee that GW will fix the outstanding problems with many of the dexes. Many of these dexes are relatively new and were inferior to the dexes that came before them in many ways.

 Jancoran wrote:

Kroot? Sigh. Once they couldn't charge from outflank, it kinda ended that fun. Great unit til then. They did however improve it again, allowing Krootox to join the Kroot so I abuse that. Step 1: show up on the enemy's long board edge (yes, you actually can!). Step 2: fire Markerlights. Step 3: Fire STR 7 guns into rear armor. Step 4: Dodge Shrapnel. Hehehe. That trick never gets old. Nor less jarring to an unsuspecting enemy. They be like "Wait..whuuut?"

It's not bad, it's just no where near as good as going pure Tau is. They keep focusing on the suits and tau and forgetting the empire. I was really hoping for a fix for the kroot and vespids, and possibly a few more alien species as well.
I'll admit, I'm probably a rare Tau owner, who got into Tau more for the Empire part than the suits, so maybe I'm not the market and shouldn't expect anything. Tau are mostly in a good place.

 Jancoran wrote:

So give it time. All codex's will be updated. Don't panic.

Because the last few codex updates have worked out so well for nids and chaos....

TLR version;
I don't know why you mentioned the power of flyrants and the power level of the nid codex when they are spammed, that is not in question.
The issue with the nid codex is it doesn't represent a fluffy nid army, and most of the units in the dex are really bad.

Experiment 626 wrote:
GW seemingly comes across as not giving a rat's fart about Chaos more so in how they've consistently ignored our entire model line... Leaving Sisters aside for now, (as they are the true red-headed step-devil-child), only Chaos players get shafted when it comes to the timely updating of our model line.

- Our entire line is still firmly rooted in 3rd edition. Loyalists got plastic Assault Marines in 2000 - we waited until ****ing 2012 for the same!

Plenty of armies' core models go back to 3rd. Orks, elder guardians, imperial guard catachans.

Akiasura wrote:

TLR version;
I don't know why you mentioned the power of flyrants and the power level of the nid codex when they are spammed, that is not in question.
The issue with the nid codex is it doesn't represent a fluffy nid army, and most of the units in the dex are really bad.

Doesnt matter how. The Dex can compete. HOW is an entirely other discussion but anyone who says they "cant win" with the Chaos Codex or Tyranid codex is in fact wrong. Proofs been provided repeatedly for those who want to learn.

It is like i said originally: it isnt the Codex's fault that the collectors dont want to buy or else dont want to field the certain mode;s that the Codex most benefitted. There will always be winners nd losers nd near misses in every codex so its kind of just the way war games go.

 Jancoran wrote:

It is like i said originally: it isnt the Codex's fault that the collectors dont want to buy or else dont want to field the certain mode;s that the Codex most benefitted. There will always be winners nd losers nd near misses in every codex so its kind of just the way war games go.

You're certainly a perfect customer by GW's mindset, eh.

They owe their very existence to my purchases.

chaos space marines can do fine with forgeworld

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

TLR version;
I don't know why you mentioned the power of flyrants and the power level of the nid codex when they are spammed, that is not in question.
The issue with the nid codex is it doesn't represent a fluffy nid army, and most of the units in the dex are really bad.

Doesnt matter how. The Dex can compete.

Of course it matters how it can compete.
If you got into nids for the swarm of bugs or genestealer cult, you are having a terrible time right now. The dex does not let you run that army, despite it being very iconic and strong in previous editions.
No one is claiming the Tyranid dex can't compete. People are saying that most of the codex is awful. Tournament lists seem to only support that.

 Jancoran wrote:

HOW is an entirely other discussion but anyone who says they "cant win" with the Chaos Codex or Tyranid codex is in fact wrong. Proofs been provided repeatedly for those who want to learn.

No one is saying they can't win with the Tyranid codex. Everyone is very much aware that you start with several FMCs, add some mawlocs, and flavor to taste because those units will be doing the heavy lifting.
As for the proof of Chaos codex winning, I don't remember any proof being offered that Chaos can go up against the power lists (Centstar, Decurion, Eldar) and win. Did someone provide some? I'd like to see how its done if so.

 Jancoran wrote:

It is like i said originally: it isnt the Codex's fault that the collectors dont want to buy or else dont want to field the certain mode;s that the Codex most benefitted.

Of course it's the codexes fault. The codex decides if the models you like are viable.
Are you saying 1k sons should just deal with it and buy nurgle, and their sour grapes aren't deserved? World Eaters? Horde nid players? Wych DE players?
These are people who had models invalidated by the current codex, where they were once viable (maybe not 1k sons....but they were better).

 Jancoran wrote:

There will always be winners nd losers nd near misses in every codex so its kind of just the way war games go.

Sure, no codex is perfect.
But eldar have, what, 3 units that are terrible? Maybe 4 or 5?
Nids and DE meanwhile have 5 units that are good.

You said you played warmachine. The factions in warmachine have some losers (MoWs, Kossites) but the majority of each faction is still playable. If you look at the WTC, you'll see a large variety of army choices that you don't see at the ETC 40k or other events.

A codex is bad for 1 of 2 reasons.
1) The majority of the codex is unplayable and flat out worse than the rest. Internally and externally, you are extremely limited in what you can use. It's even worse if the things you can use are not iconic of the army.
2) The codex has a low power level no matter what you do, and every game becomes a struggle if the opponent picks a better dex.

The worst codexes are a combination of both.

nareik wrote:
CSM gained lots of daemon engines and a few 'daemon' infantry. Also, the true daemon side of chaos has grown, even if it means the army is split across two codexes.

They also have KDK which means you can do some unprecedented tricks, like allying in a Herald. But despite all these unexplored options some real issues exist when playing 'weaker' armies in 40k, which explain why we don't see more surprises.

- financial and time investment to acquire and assemble the models
- opponents who resent playing an experimental list
- low volume of games due to time and space constraints
- players who are discouraged by failure, which is inevitable if experimenting
- negativity and condescension for playing X codex/unit with bad reputation

This isn't the fault of a codex itself, but it definitely discourages your average player from unlocking some of the less obvious synergies and builds available.

The Daemon Engines unfortunately largely are either very situational or painfully overcosted. Compare a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder to Maulerfiend at 125, a Forgefiend at 175, or worse, a Defiler at 200pts, and one can see where they have problems.

With regards to the more "unprecedented tricks", they're not unknown, in fact, most CSM armies that are placing in events do so through using things like daemon allies and the like. The problem is that then a lot of the time you're not really playing a CSM army, many such lists have very few or in some cases even no actual Chaos Marines in them (often things like Belakor plus Cultists and maybe a single CSM sorceror with a Baledrake plus gobs of Daemon allies). A lot of these tricks also just don't jive with lots of themes, particularly most Legions.

Competitive play is not about themes.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Daemon Engines unfortunately largely are either very situational or painfully overcosted. Compare a Chaos Daemons Soul Grinder to Maulerfiend at 125, a Forgefiend at 175, or worse, a Defiler at 200pts, and one can see where they have problems.

The more I look at it and the more I think about it, the more I believe the current Chaos codex (or at least, most of it) was probably designed with 5th edition in mind, and was just released after 6th edition dropped. The Fiends would have been neat with 5th edition rules. Really hard to crack considering how durable vehicles were back then (most of the time) plus 5++ save and IWND.

This has been talked to death already around the forums, but really the Chaos dex is just stuck in 4/5th edition. The only thing that was truly fit for 6th edition was the Baledrake, and mostly because it was an autoplay unit. Also Nurgle because Nurgle is basically fit for everything.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Competitive play is not about themes.

No, but fair play should be. In a friendly match, I could bring out the cheesiest CSM combo possible, and still have the odds stacked against me when fighting a thematic sub-optimal list from another codex. No matter what Jancoran says, the codexes should be a lot closer to eachother in terms of power. And all codexes should make at least most of their units somewhat viable. We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

Maybe Jancoran should make a BA thread. That would be amusing for all.

See if he can survive the arguments from the tide of angry BA players? That would be funny.

Honestly everyone should just put him on their ignore list, so he has nobody to talk down to from his competitive throne.

One thing I do wish would change for the better is the possessed vehicle rules. Eating up occupants is fine as long as its not a requires upgrade, but decreasing BS is stupid. It should instead just ignore crew shaken, and maybe give a possessed table like 1-2:gives vehicle invuln 6+ or improves invlun by one/3-4: gives weapons on vehicle rending and vehicle stealth/5-6: acts as a fast assault vehicle. Random for sure, but would actually be taken for once

autumnlotus wrote:
Honestly everyone should just put him on their ignore list, so he has nobody to talk down to from his competitive throne.

One thing I do wish would change for the better is the possessed vehicle rules. Eating up occupants is fine as long as its not a requires upgrade, but decreasing BS is stupid. It should instead just ignore crew shaken, and maybe give a possessed table like 1-2:gives vehicle invuln 6+ or improves invlun by one/3-4: gives weapons on vehicle rending and vehicle stealth/5-6: acts as a fast assault vehicle. Random for sure, but would actually be taken for once

I would love marks for tanks that are possessed.

MoT, +1 Invul save or 5++ Save. Weapons gain Soul fire
MoN, 1 additional HP, weapons gain poison
MoS, can move an additional 3", sonic weapons mountable
MoK, becomes assault tank, tank shock bonus of some sort.

nareik wrote:

Plenty of armies' core models go back to 3rd. Orks, elder guardians, imperial guard catachans.

Please show me another army that has 17/25 of their units with 3rd edition models. While our Termies and basic CSM were redone for the early 4th ed codex, the models themselves are still firmly rooted in the much earlier 3rd ed style designs.

nareik wrote:
There have been variant models for space marines for a long time. One of the reasons there are so many 'not space marines' space marines codex. Really chaos is one of these.

Razorbacks aside, the Land Raider issue is a special kick in the face to Chaos players. Loyalist players keep getting new toys. Chaos players get all, except for the worst of the worst of the Loyalist stuff.

nareik wrote:
The best thing about chaos is there is every reason to use the loyalist kits. Not so much the other way around. From this perspective chaos have spacemarines +1 kit options!

Yeah, I'm so glad to see my "extra" Chaos kits chalk full of those amazingly cool options I can't actually use!
Loyalist kits are not +1 options for Chaos players. They're a constant reminder that we're not good enough to deserve our own proper kits, and instead get to pay the special "Chaos tax" just to access our most basic options.

Again, show me another army that has to spend additional money just to get their hands on their basic upgrade options.

nareik wrote:
Actually there are Forgeworld upgrade kits too... In fact there are forgeworld options for chaos terminators too, now I think about it.

Thanks for pointing that yet again, we're special and get to pay the "Chaos tax" just to have access to our basic stuff.

nareik wrote:
CSM gained lots of daemon engines and a few 'daemon' infantry. Also, the true daemon side of chaos has grown, even if it means the army is split across two codexes.

No - I'm talking specifically about our actual "Armoury" page. Ours has only continually shrunk since 3rd edition. Loyalists keep getting more and more new toys though.

Our 'best' upgrades are still stuck at Plasma guns & Autocannons. Even freaking Dark Eldar & Sisters of Battle have had more new upgrade options than we have!

nareik wrote:
Fair point, I suppose. Except you can buy some cultist options boxed and the basic CSM kit was designed to also represent chosen. Also, these options are available through the DV box / ebay (obviously). Chosen always seemed to me to be a conversion opportunity to create a unit of individual, characterful models.

The basic Chaos Marine is in no way meant to also build Chosen. It barely allows you to build even a basic CSM squad for feth's sake! (again, the newer Tactical Marine kit puts it to outright shame)
Or let's put it this way: we don't even have a single plastic combi-weapon component yet!!
We at least finally got plastic Lightning claws thanks to Warptalons now existing, but still, even despite having what's likely the smallest armoury in the entire game, we still have sizable chunks of it missing.

nareik wrote:
Although some of your claims have some basis, many seem rather insubstantial from my perspective. Sure the army doesn't get quite as much attention as all the other space marine armies added together, but no army does. Not even codex space marines.

It would be fairer to compare the treatment of chaos marines to another space marine variant, or even the non space marine armies, to see if chaos marines are being neglected. I would be fairly optimistic for a miniature reboot, but I feel we would loose out on some of the elements of the current kit that I particularly like (bolters being separate from arms).

That said, your attitude is a perfect embracement of the anti-establishment resentment that perfectly embraces the outlook of chaos marines, so I applaud your grasp on the mindset of this faction you want to enjoy so much!

Why should Chaos players be the only group that can't viably build their own army out of their *gasp* own model line?

I know Loyalist elitism enjoys trying to gloss our situation over and say, "rubbish, just add spikes to our toys", but that's not a solution. All its doing is proving that Chaos Marines especially have the worst model line in the entire game, as we're forced to build the bulk of our options from other army's model lines!
Do you honestly see Eldar players or Ork players having to cannibalise the Tau model line just to get their basic toys? Since when are Tyranid players having to go buy Dark Elf monsters to convert their big beasties?

Chaos Marine players though are like a second class all on our own, simply because our kits are either massively incomplete, missing entirely, or else are still half-useless 'direct-only' upgrade kits.

 Selym wrote:
We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

My car should get better gas mileage too. And girls should date me for my personality. What do you want me to say man? If you want a fair and balanced competitve game, spend that ~£35 on Starcraft.

In the meantime, you deal with things as they are. This KDK list did very well at NOVA, looking for ally potential is probably better than arguing about GWs financials or insulting people on dakka.

http://www.spikeybits.com/2015/09/khorne-places-5th-daemonkin-nova-battle-reps.html

Another perspective is that by keeping the upgrade packs out of the main box set actually saves chaos players for paying a 'tax' on unwanted pieces.

Further exploring your ideas of 'paying tax', most space marine armies pay an elite tax. Chaos elites are no different. 10 death company vs 10 BA tacticals is comparable pricewise to 10 noise marines vs 10 chaos marines.

Yes, the models are older, yes you do have to use the internet to buy upgrade kits, but the legion cult units aren't a tax. Especially not berserkers!

For a long time Orks had to loot other model lines. Still do for the Looted Vehicle option. Also, according to the internet, plenty of Eldar players are using Tau models . But seriously, Chaos space marines are a variant of space marines, it is far more comparable to Dark Angels having to loot the space marine line for tactical marines and scouts (or shock horror, buy another DV box) than Eldar looting Tau.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Selym wrote:
We're paying ~£35 per codex, for feths sake.

My car should get better gas mileage too. And girls should date me for my personality. What do you want me to say man? If you want a fair and balanced competitve game, spend that ~£35 on Starcraft.

It sounds like your happy/content with the fact the game is unbalanced... I mean, it's not asking for the moon here. Just a more balanced game. I see no logical reason why we would not want GW to try and make a better balanced game, it would benefit everybody.

I love playing my CSM but can acknowledge that they are certainly point-for-point worse than many of the current codex's out today.

nareik wrote:
Another perspective is that by keeping the upgrade packs out of the main box set actually saves chaos players for paying a 'tax' on unwanted pieces.

Further exploring your ideas of 'paying tax', most space marine armies pay an elite tax. Chaos elites are no different. 10 death company vs 10 BA tacticals is comparable pricewise to 10 noise marines vs 10 chaos marines.

Yes, the models are older, yes you do have to use the internet to buy upgrade kits, but the legion cult units aren't a tax. Especially not berserkers!

For a long time Orks had to loot other model lines. Still do for the Looted Vehicle option. Also, according to the internet, plenty of Eldar players are using Tau models . But seriously, Chaos space marines are a variant of space marines, it is far more comparable to Dark Angels having to loot the space marine line for tactical marines and scouts (or shock horror, buy another DV box) than Eldar looting Tau.

Show me where Eldar have to loot another army line for access to Scatterlasers or missile launchers. Show me where Ork players have to use Oblits to build Lootas. Show me where Space Marines have to buy Tau kits to access Grav guns...

You know what Chaos Marines can't do? That's right, we can't build basic heavy weapons out of our own damn model line. (okay, we can buy a 4x Autocannon squad for the astonishingly great buy of $200!)
You know what we have to do to get Lightning claw Termies? Yep, we have to buy multiple $30 kits per model, or else buy Loyalist Terminators.

No other army has to put up with this kind of neglect... Just Chaos players, because apparently we're extra special.

I showed you ork players have to loot wagons for looted wagons. Not even in the codex either, similar problems to CSM there. They have upgrade kits for ard boyz. They have to loot other ranges for their buggy weapon options.

Its only recently citadel started doubling up heavy options for devestators. Besides, forgeworld sell really nice autocannons. Lightning claws are available in a dreaded upgrade pack too... wait, not any more. Well, I guess your stuck with conversion/kit bashing/forgeworld with that one.

There is rumour of one army that has to put up with this kind of neglect and more... Squats! Squats have it worse! All they get a cursory mention at the back of the brb box in the abhumans section and that's it.

Even worse, if you want chaos squats not only are they unmentioned, but you FIRST have to convert your models into squats AND THEN convert those squats into chaos. Actually, I suppose that proves you are right. Chaos players, squats in particular, do have it worst!

 clamclaw wrote:
I see no logical reason why [GW shouldn't] try and make a better balanced game, it would benefit everybody.

Because then they couldn't sell new models using OP silliness like Formations and SHV/GC rules.

I get where you're coming from in desiring a more balanced game, but 40k has never been balanced and I doubt it ever will be. As they say, 'hope is the first step on the road to disappointment!'

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm going to repeat myself for the last time... bla bla

I was ignoring you because you have terrible research skills. Here is Sean's writing on how the list developed. At the very least, thank you for promising it's the last time you'll repeat yourself.

So with that in mind the list starts to develop, obviously the theme is once again surprise were here so death leaper formation is in, to augment that push as many other lictors as I can in so we end up with 8. From there 3 mawlocs are an easy addition, I already had 2 and so spent a lot of discussion and introspection whether to add a 3rd or go with something else like a carnifex or tyranofex as I had some in boxes I had won in the intervening years... but the 3rd mawloc was a better fit in every way so conceded to the better choice there. I already had one flyrant built and ready(sexy forgeworld one) so thats easy and again I conceded that in this instance its probably not necessary to try and reinvent the wheel, double flyrant is pretty darn solid and nothing else in the slot is fast enough or fits into the list as well. In some test ideas I had ravenors and shrikes in the fast slot and liked them as light lictors... but that involved buying and painting the models so I looked at my case and said well genestealers are kinda like that too.... plus they are already painted. The bastion is just so useful for the comms and line of sight blocking that its an auto take, because you never know if the tournament you are going to will have enough good terrain.

From there you have to start looking at a little psychology too... the whole list is crazy and its nickname is #LictorShame... mainly as a goof ball idea that people would be ashamed to admit defeat to not only Tyranids but also these tyranid models in particular. So my friend suggested that since I had a few points to spare I might as well toss in some spore mines because it was just one more hilarious unit to add to that psyche out moment when opponents read your list at the table. Then once we got the list on the table we quickly realized that the crazy theme and list was actually gelling together even better then I had expected... I had ideas that it should work, but to see it not only work but really work well gave me a lot of confidence to bring it to 11th company. SO much confidence that I was telling a lot of people that I was going to win the event, and even stealth posted the list on here to kinda put it out there before the event so that when I did win I could point back and say I warned people it was coming.

But the overriding idea of the list is to push the boundaries of competitive 40k. Because I feel that a lot of times there isnt enough belief in some forgotten units... but the right combos and outside the box thinking can create powerful builds that dont strictly come out of analyzing the most points efficient models and highest math hammer based attrition.

He can say whatever he wants, but what matters is what actually happened. And what I said is what the Lictors ended up doing. So I'd have to say YOU are the one with gak research skills.

Oh I agree completely. Very convincing argument there.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
I see no logical reason why [GW shouldn't] try and make a better balanced game, it would benefit everybody.

Because then they couldn't sell new models using OP silliness like Formations and SHV/GC rules.

I get where you're coming from in desiring a more balanced game, but 40k has never been balanced and I doubt it ever will be. As they say, 'hope is the first step on the road to disappointment!'

They could spend their money on a better game from a company that actually cares. Pretending 40k doesn't have problems like you're doing helps no one.

Akiasura wrote:

No one is claiming the Tyranid dex can't compete.

Good. problem solved then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

People are saying that most of the codex is awful. .

No codex lacks a poopy option or two. But I see a multiplicity of lists showing up and multiple have won. I'm surprised as anyone. But it goes to show: Codex's don't win anything. So why do we sit here and talk about them as if they could?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
I see no logical reason why [GW shouldn't] try and make a better balanced game, it would benefit everybody.

Because then they couldn't sell new models using OP silliness like Formations and SHV/GC rules.

I get where you're coming from in desiring a more balanced game, but 40k has never been balanced and I doubt it ever will be. As they say, 'hope is the first step on the road to disappointment!'

They could spend their money on a better game from a company that actually cares. Pretending 40k doesn't have problems like you're doing helps no one.

Good thing I never claimed that or you'd have a point. Lol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

nareik wrote:
CSM gained lots of daemon engines and a few 'daemon' infantry. Also, the true daemon side of chaos has grown, even if it means the army is split across two codexes.

They also have KDK which means you can do some unprecedented tricks, like allying in a Herald. But despite all these unexplored options some real issues exist when playing 'weaker' armies in 40k, which explain why we don't see more surprises.

- financial and time investment to acquire and assemble the models
- opponents who resent playing an experimental list
- low volume of games due to time and space constraints
- players who are discouraged by failure, which is inevitable if experimenting
- negativity and condescension for playing X codex/unit with bad reputation

This isn't the fault of a codex itself, but it definitely discourages your average player from unlocking some of the less obvious synergies and builds available.

Yeah i think the money thing has more to do with this nerd rage. Most opponents are happy not to see the netlist show up to their table and though no loss is preferable, there is at least a sense that they didn't have to play "that other BS" in their minds anyways. My Night Lords list for example is fairly unique and so people are actually kind of excited to see how it works.

Time is also a concern. I mentioned much earlier in the thread that if a Chaos player plays three times a week as I am wont to do, they are going to have more time to develop these strategies and see the proof of their labors. Having already acknowledged that, it doesnt justify nerd rage like this. If anything, a person with far less experience ought to be quite keen on learning new things through other peoples example. Even as much as i am able to play, I am still here on DakkaDakka (admittedly my least favorite place to go, but its prolific so theres that) because every now and then i run into someone with a really fascinating concept, and it could be with a totally different army but it inspires me for mine.

Or I could do what some do: nerd rage and tell everyone how the world is about to end if we do anything outside the box. "Netlist or die! Adepticon or bust!"

The codex obviouly provides the tools. Some tools are quite expensive for their role. some are okay. Some are downright steals. But that isn't as important as what you plan to do with them. that is what matters. And as long as you can execute the stratregy, even an overpriced toy can prove its value.

So That is how i look at things. I dont get wrappd up in all the negativity. Winning is its own justification. As napolean famously said: Success requires no explanation. Failure allows for none.