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Make it an 13/12/12 4Hp Jump pack walker
That should fix it.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Make it an 13/12/12 4Hp Jump pack walker
That should fix it.

As stated several times, the vehicle rules aren't good, don't accurately represent the actual battlesuits, and would actually make it HARDER to kill.

Give grav weapons to IG and CSM, and we're good to go on the Tau front.

 McNinja wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Make it an 13/12/12 4Hp Jump pack walker
That should fix it.

As stated several times, the vehicle rules aren't good, don't accurately represent the actual battlesuits, and would actually make it HARDER to kill.

I still think that multi wound models should have a critical hit table similar to vehicles it would fix a lot. It would not only close the gab but also end the whole my foot is in cover ruling.
This thing and all the other walker-monsters are clearly a vehicles with pilots, no mather how much you big suits fans like it to be a living thing
And I'm 100% sure that at least my armies have less difficulties killing walkers / vehicles then they have in killing monsters. I have never instagibbed monsters with a bunch of melta (bombz), while vehicles explode all the time/

 Korinov wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:The Riptide should be a Monstrous creature because its supposed to move and behave more like a less extreme version of Michael Bay's transformers as opposed star war's AT-AT or AT-ST.

notredameguy10 wrote:Dreadnoughts are slow, lumbering machines. Riptides are quick, mobile, assault units and thus should not be labeled the same

At the end of the day a Riptide is a giant robot with a humanoid pilot inside. I don't see why it should be labeled any different than a IG Sentinel. Both of them should be walker vehicles. The higher mobility and agility of the Riptide can be easily represented ingame with better movement abilities and certain perks (i.e. can only receive shots at the rear if inmobilised).

I understand Tau players simply do not want to part ways with their cheese, but no matter how you look at it, either all of the giant robots are walkers or all of them are MCs. Specially when MCs have far superior rules if compared with equivalent vehicles.

By your definition wraithknights and dreadknights should be vehicles as well as they both have a humanoid pilot.

Also as a Tau player I do not see the riptide as cheese, however I will say a riptide with FNP rolling for the 3++ every turn is cheese, hence why I don't take stim injectors.

Please don't generalise all Tau players as reluctant, stubborn, cheese abusing monsters.

By your definition wraithknights and dreadknights should be vehicles as well as they both have a humanoid pilot.

Jup I completely agree they should be walkers. It not just tau

 oldzoggy wrote:

By your definition wraithknights and dreadknights should be vehicles as well as they both have a humanoid pilot.

Jup I completely agree they should be walkers. It not just tau

So do you think the riptide, wraithknight and dreadknight should be vehicles or super heavy vehicles?

Everyone has ways of killing things like landraiders these days, they'd need saves and special rules and things like that to compensate for not being monstrous creatures.

Taffy17 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

By your definition wraithknights and dreadknights should be vehicles as well as they both have a humanoid pilot.

Jup I completely agree they should be walkers. It not just tau

So do you think the riptide, wraithknight and dreadknight should be vehicles or super heavy vehicles?

Everyone has ways of killing things like landraiders these days, they'd need saves and special rules and things like that to compensate for not being monstrous creatures.

Yes I think so , and no they would not need any saves or special abilities to compensate it. Walker Gun platforms approximately the cost of expensive landraiders should be just as easy to kill if not easier to kill.
There is no reason at all that your ~200-300 point model should have more guns and be tougher then an landraider or an Ork walker costing approx the same points.

Ok, so say you make a riptide an AV12,12,12 walker with a 2d6 jump move and the ability to fire in any direction alongside its current stat line things like heavy bolters can no longer hurt it, plasma guns wound it on 5s instead of 3s but also have a chance to insta kill it.

I don't really think its fair that it's immune to small arms fire but i also don't believe it should be quite so vulnerable to anti tank.

Maybe you could introduce a rule called 'tough' which -1 from the vehicle damage table result and also give it some kind of repair/it will not die.

I think this may be too complicated though, maybe it'd be easier to just introduce a Monstrous creature damage table?

If you exceed the number required to wound a MC role on this table adding one for AP2 and 2 for AP1.
-5 is shaken
-6 is stunned
-7 loose an additional wound in addition to stunned
-8 loose 2 additional wounds in addition to stunned

You could use this for GMCs as well

Making any of our suits a walker would either remove it from the game because it can be glanced to death via small arms with little effort or it would become broken as hell because it would be immune to small arms.

Riptide being less than 13/12/12 would remove its front-line tank role, and being at that value would make it even more tanky than it already is. Yes it gives it Explode! problems but how often does that actually happen anyway? I see vehicles of all armors often and i rarely explode any of them, even with a hammerhead. None of them have an invul save either, and the Riptide would still have its 5++ with nova to 3++. Do you really want a 13/12/12 walker with a 3++ walking around?

Theres a reason Tau suits werent walkers and shouldnt be walkers. I stand by what i said earlier that the problem is the IA not the riptide itself.

I see vehicles of all armors often and i rarely explode any of them

If this is true then I don't believe that you actually own and or play with your 4000 points of orks (or tau.. )

Oh nooo, a unit that can be defeated by using weapons on it that designed to kill it? What a horrifying idea!

The idea that a model need some kind of additional save beyond its standard defenses is just obscene - what makes this thing more worthy of a save than a Dreadnought, or a Predator? Because it's big and looks cool? That was the Dread in earlier editions, and look where we are now.

Things die in this game. All the time, by the turn, you'll lose more and more units, with you having little say in it. That's why people take many units in twos or threes, and why Squadrons make pretty good sense for the most part - your models isn't meant to survive. If they do, congratulations, you were good enough to keep it safe. Otherwise, it's just the reality if it. It's the game.

Some people really gotta try playing Orks

So when it comes down to it, giving the Riptide 12/12/12 and 5 HP should be around fair. It'll be targetted by any heavy weapon in the game, but that's the price you pay for bringing an overly large model - if you wanted stealth, why didn't you pick Crisis Suits? Besides, the Riptide was designed to draw fire, so have that.

If it should have ANY extra defenses, it should be something for the Shield - maybe a native 6++, combined with it reducing all damage by 1 S in the Front and Side archs?

IA is the worst problem, but the Riptide is still too durable for its points.

 oldzoggy wrote:

I see vehicles of all armors often and i rarely explode any of them

If this is true then I don't believe that you actually own and or play with your 4000 points of orks (or tau.. )

What does that have to do with explode results? Even destroyer weapons need a 5+/6+ to explode a vehicle and only have 1 chance at it, theyre more likely to glance it to death with the excess damage.
MANz missiles are the only thing i have that usually causes an explosion, and their track record is still vastly in favor of glanced to death vs exploded.

My siggy numbers are a tally of what i have. Ive never played beyond 3000pts, i just can because i like mixing things up so i own more than i need for a 2k game.

@OP have you tried optimizing your list with some daemon cheese? What about that cover buffed flying blood thirster swinging a D weapon? Dead riptide every turn...

Vineheart01 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

I see vehicles of all armors often and i rarely explode any of them

If this is true then I don't believe that you actually own and or play with your 4000 points of orks (or tau.. )

What does that have to do with explode results? Even destroyer weapons need a 5+/6+ to explode a vehicle and only have 1 chance at it, theyre more likely to glance it to death with the excess damage.
MANz missiles are the only thing i have that usually causes an explosion, and their track record is still vastly in favor of glanced to death vs exploded.

My siggy numbers are a tally of what i have. Ive never played beyond 3000pts, i just can because i like mixing things up so i own more than i need for a 2k game.

Agreed. Tau have alot of weapons that can glance vehicles to death reliably. 3 good shots is better than 1 lucky shot, and we can get probably 12 str 7 twin linked shot compared to 2 str 10 shot which is worse when a space marine battle company can be deployed in a normal pointage game. The game is structured to the point where reliable glancing hits is way better at the moment.

@oldzoggy, I think you're probably the one who don't play as much as @vineheart

And trust me as a tau player when I say there are more than 3 ways to nullify riptides.

I just remind you that you have force weapon.

i think the main reason these giant suit types are being labeled as MC is because they really are that, they are larger versions of the infantry, wraithknights are extra big wraith units, dreadknights are extra big marines, riptides are extra big crisis, but here the thing, demons princes are just big demons, tyranid MCs are just bigger bugs, they all have the same thing in common. they are meant to handle like bigger versions of infantry. Walkers are not, they are meant to handle like clunky machines.

As far as fixing the riptide? honestly just reducing the IA's range and losing ap2 without nova or just losing the IA altogether and add a nova charge profile onto the cannon and increasing the price a little is all that is needed. Although i do kind of like the long winded risk reward dude. It made sense while I was reading it.

And what about Daemon Engines? There really is no reason behind the difference besides 'GW thought it'd be cooler' or 'MCs are better'.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And what about Daemon Engines? There really is no reason behind the difference besides 'GW thought it'd be cooler' or 'MCs are better'.

^ This. It is just because it is better and tau and eldar are armies played by players who like to have models who are really good.
I suspect that this is secretly the real reason why tau and eldar are that much more powerful the last years then lets say orks.
There are different kinds of players and there are different kinds of armies suited for them. How powerful an army is might as well be taken into account for that.

On exploding stuff and the way I play.
True my orks have not left my shelf in half a year but. I play quite a lot both on vassal transporting digital orks is that much simpler, and in the real world mostly small games with inq + imperial allies.
It is rare to not see a single vehicle explode in a game.

Things that I use to kill stuff with.
Drop pod Melta guns.
Melta bombz on henchmen and tank busta's
Power klaws, power fists, High str ap2 deamon swords, and thunder hammers (not that often but it happens)
servitor ap1 claws ( this rarely happens )

Things I do not use to kill vehicles
Bolters, rokkits or anything else that has a crappy Ap. Why? it is just wasted on them, that stuff should shoot at other things such as marines.

Armies I face regularly.
Necrons
Tau
Marines
Guards
Eldar
Tyranid
Orks

Now lets go deeper into that.
Necrons -> All most all open topped
Tau -> Almost never brings vehicles, its just suits in a corner
Marines -> rhino's and landraiders are closed but drop pods are open
Guards -> Transports closed but all most all artillery is open
Eldar -> closed and usually too fast or protected by shenanigans to get to it,
Tyranids -> No vehicles
Orks -> All most all open topped

If I would have to guess I would say that approx 60% of the games I play with vehicles my opponent has some open topped ones.
Now lets do the math on them.

Open topped +1 & Ap1 +2 = +3
So on a 4+ those weapons roll an explode result. This happens a lot in my games.
So I would say that In approx 40-50% of all my games vehicles explode not counting my own trukks and drop pods.
And I'm quite sure that If someone truly played orks he or she would not take the stance that vehicles are never to explode since somehow ork transports always seem to do

In most of the cases, it's easier to wreck the vehicle than to explode it.
Especialy, if you are SM player.

Quite frankly i think they should do away with the ease of glancing to death on vehicles. Vehicles have less wounds than pretty much any MC, or equal to. That makes no sense when even a Landraider is easier to glance to death than a Flyrant is to kill most of the time (assuming you have the guns that can hurt a landraider that is).

Old vehicle rules were dumb. Glances rarely did more than piss a vehicle off and you were more likely to render it useless than explode it to kill it. They needed some kind of HP system, but what they added was worse.
Vehicles should have like double the HP they have right now - all of them. Except Landspeeder-esk ones, where they get +1 instead (i say this because my Piranha wall is a thorn as it is, giving them 4HP would be kinda....unfair lol).

A damn vehicle should be the hardest thing to kill without an Explode! lucky roll in the game, not one of the easiest. I consider Rhinos easier to kill than Marines and that simply should not be.
Heck, even Super Heavy Vehicles arent that hard to kill because they have the same amount of HP as GMCs have wounds give or take one. GMCs dont have EXPLODE! D3 extra damages to worry about, yet SHVs do and dont have extra HP to compensate? Doesnt make any sense. You can in theory kill any super heavy with 3 lascannons (that i know of anyway, i dont know the stats of the few gigantic ones that dwarf the imperial knight/titans) and, again, that should NOT HAPPEN.

And @oldzoggy, i use vehicles all the time as Tau. Its quite rare to see me without my hammerhead, skyray, 2 devilfish, and my 5man piranha wall. Im one of the tau players that wish they went more towards the vehicle side of the army and focused on Rail-based weapons rather than suit side based on Ion weapons....purely because i find them cooler lol. Love my suit models, but i like to think of them as a crucial asset not the core of the damn army.

Why not just double the hull points of all vehicles excluding super heavies? I they'd be a heck of a lot harder to glance to death, but still possible, and anti armour weapons would have a much bigger place.

At the same time you could add in a (gargantuan) monstrous creature damage table like this...
If you exceed the number required to wound a MC role on this table adding one for AP2 and two for AP1.
-5 is shaken
-6 is stunned
-7 loose an additional wound in addition to stunned
-8 loose 2 additional wounds in addition to stunned

And now the difference between a LR and a Baneblade is 1 HP...

If you up the HP of some vehicles, you're gonna need to do it to all/most of them, even SH.

Superheavies need it as much as regular vehicles. Like i said, you can theoretically kill a superheavy in 3 shots but aside from Str D or ID you literally cannot kill a GMC with less guns than it has wounds. And it has just as many wounds as a SHV has HP.

Now i think 18hp would be a bit bonkers, so maybe +1/2 to supers rather than double. 13/14hp is a lot to go through, pretty much requiring the additional Explode! damage to take down. May not seem like much more than an 8HP Landraider or 10HP Gorkanaut, but remember those two die to 1 explode result while the Baneblade doesnt.

And now im getting off topic lol this is about the Riptide not vehicles.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Superheavies need it as much as regular vehicles. Like i said, you can theoretically kill a superheavy in 3 shots but aside from Str D or ID you literally cannot kill a GMC with less guns than it has wounds. And it has just as many wound as HP.

A Punisher Gatling Cannon can theoretically do 20 wounds to a GMC... So... Not literally...

Ap1 causes an additional wound to monstrous creatures, ordinance causes d3 wounds if they fail a save.

Ooh, nice

Now, if the Vanquisher could just be Ap1 Ordnance, and if LRBT could have LB back...

I don't think you can say the riptide is bad and other things like the Wraithknight aren't. If your fixing one you have to fix the other.

Also is the problem monstrous creatures being good or vehicles being bad?

I just think don't let it take FNP and people will be more reluctant to use the nova for the 3++ meaning its easier to kill. You could also reduce the IA range to 30". There you go, the riptide is suddenly what its supposed to be.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Quite frankly i think they should do away with the ease of glancing to death on vehicles. Vehicles have less wounds than pretty much any MC, or equal to. That makes no sense when even a Landraider is easier to glance to death than a Flyrant is to kill most of the time (assuming you have the guns that can hurt a landraider that is).

Old vehicle rules were dumb. Glances rarely did more than piss a vehicle off and you were more likely to render it useless than explode it to kill it. They needed some kind of HP system, but what they added was worse.
Vehicles should have like double the HP they have right now - all of them. Except Landspeeder-esk ones, where they get +1 instead (i say this because my Piranha wall is a thorn as it is, giving them 4HP would be kinda....unfair lol).

A damn vehicle should be the hardest thing to kill without an Explode! lucky roll in the game, not one of the easiest. I consider Rhinos easier to kill than Marines and that simply should not be.
Heck, even Super Heavy Vehicles arent that hard to kill because they have the same amount of HP as GMCs have wounds give or take one. GMCs dont have EXPLODE! D3 extra damages to worry about, yet SHVs do and dont have extra HP to compensate? Doesnt make any sense. You can in theory kill any super heavy with 3 lascannons (that i know of anyway, i dont know the stats of the few gigantic ones that dwarf the imperial knight/titans) and, again, that should NOT HAPPEN.

And @oldzoggy, i use vehicles all the time as Tau. Its quite rare to see me without my hammerhead, skyray, 2 devilfish, and my 5man piranha wall. Im one of the tau players that wish they went more towards the vehicle side of the army and focused on Rail-based weapons rather than suit side based on Ion weapons....purely because i find them cooler lol. Love my suit models, but i like to think of them as a crucial asset not the core of the damn army.

I agree with a lot of this. I would still think that Explodes! should to D3 HP (in addition to the one HP made by penetrating), so a lucky roll of 6 won't remove a model like a Land Raider immediatly. Also, 8 HP for a Land Raider may be too much - 6 would do.

Rest - Completely agree. The thin Tau suits should be the glass cannons, and the tanks the... Well, tanks.