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Izural wrote:
So what I'm getting from this, is you would willingly shove all your IC's, in a T3 shell that has to footslog, with ML1 psykers. With only their t-shirts to save them?

Have you met our friend? I call him Will the Whirlwind.
He's AP5, Ignores cover and comes in squadrons!

You really need to ponder the unit a bit more. Whirlwinds can fire for as long as they are alive though. Which...you know... may not be long? After all, whatever the "perfect answer" is to the blob, his buddies are trying to kill. So there's that. Though I would be pleasantly amused to see a Whirlwind fielded in a Tournament. An unusual choice given the alternatives. But sure, it will try.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Well if he named the Thunderfire, you'd have even less ground to stand on.

Also good that you admitted that you're trolling.

I lost 2 games, with IG, in 6th edition. I played lots.

I've won 1 game in 7th, with IG. I've played lots. The codex lost key mobility options, everyone else is getting stronger, and the core rules more or less require highly mobile units to be able to actively achieve objectives.

The codex could work if you could determine your deployment zone before placing objectives. That's not the case. You can't cluster a whole bunch of objectives in your DZ, to ensure that you can defensively hold ground. It's what the Guard codex does, rather well, all things considered. But that does not win games, so Guard are relatively weak right now.

The codex isn't gawdawful, it's just got the tools for a different game. Like trying to carve wood with kitchen implements. It's not that the knives aren't sharp, but they aren't designed to shape wood, so you have a harder time accomplishing your goals. While other people have power tools designed to shape wood, you're stuck with knives and forks.

Imagine "8th Edition" in which you could plan on creating a defensive stronghold, and you win if you can hold your ground. The Guard codex would be pretty good. Think about the last time someone used fortifications. It's been a long time. I used them constantly in 6th. Stopped using them after two games of 7th. The codex could be strong, in a different edition. Just not 7th.

There's still blazingly gak options. Your argument doesn't work for CSM's and it doesn't work for AM.

 greatbigtree wrote:


The codex isn't gawdawful, it's just got the tools for a different game.

It's still really largely built around it's 5E iteration, and had adjustments made to account for perceived 5E balance issues, the problem being that it came out IIRC 6 weeks before 7E

Seekers + Herald pretty much auto-win vs. the supposedly "Deathblob" IG...

1. Herald challenges the offending Psyker w/Forewarning
2. Throw out a stupid amount of high WS & Initiative attacks
3. Profit?

No need even for Invis cheapness. Seekers could viably charge the blob within a single turn too due to their speed.

Hell, for real lolz, give the Herald the Doomstone and enjoy watching all those expensive characters explode!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Seekers + Herald pretty much auto-win vs. the supposedly "Deathblob" IG...

1. Herald challenges the offending Psyker w/Forewarning
2. Throw out a stupid amount of high WS & Initiative attacks
3. Profit?

No need even for Invis cheapness. Seekers could viably charge the blob within a single turn too due to their speed.

Hell, for real lolz, give the Herald the Doomstone and enjoy watching all those expensive characters explode!

Dude.
He has a whole army that can be killing things.
You're just not seeing it's genius.

I mean, 40 str 3 attacks? With re-rolls to hit and wound?
4 LCs?
3 ML 1 psykers?
3 Priests?
T 3 with a 4++ save (with a successful cast, but 3 psykers...)?
40 Lasguns?

All for the low low cost of 600+ points?
He has another 1200 points of army. It doesn't matter that you have another 1400 points of army, that 1200 will be killing stuff.



Seriously, a bunch of us have shown that the basilisk, LRBT, Rough Riders (which honestly shocked me) and this blob are pretty weak. They aren't going to listen to reason, so let's not address them directly.
I don't want a repeat of our discussion where my 20 scatterbikes went through mitosis and become 40, and that 20 bikes is list tailoring/netlisting but taking 15 to a tournament is original.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

Was he trolling you with well-written, well-presented and above all accurate arguments again?

Well guard is a turtle up type of army. Sit back behind cover and go to ground when getting fired at to gain those sweet cover saves.

And blow everything up with ur bigs guns. But yeah, objective wise I don't see them speeding across the board to apture objectives all over.

The IG aren't even good at turtling up. Our tanks are made of cardboard, and our infantry would have a better save if they ran around naked.

Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.


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 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

Oh fer gak's sake, the entire IG codex gets torn apart by the uncompetitive units of most other armies.

Lol.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.


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 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he hasn't. He listed a blob that was casually removed by several dexes.
He also doesn't take the IG to tournaments, so clearly he doesn't believe in it either.

What part of rear armor 10/11 and drop pods/Waveserpents/Melee attacks/Gauss ignores AV is confusing?

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Lol.

 reds8n wrote:
If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion then don't post.

Akiasura wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.


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 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he hasn't. He listed a blob that was casually removed by several dexes.
He also doesn't take the IG to tournaments, so clearly he doesn't believe in it either.

What part of rear armor 10/11 and drop pods/Waveserpents/Melee attacks/Gauss ignores AV is confusing?

The fact that its nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.


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 Selym wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Lol.

 reds8n wrote:
If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion then don't post.

Stop trolling.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.

Let's break this down.
AV14 spam with no Jink saves, what kind of saves do they get to make against Haywire attacks?

Because y'know, Haywire is a thing in this game. And it does make a mockery of AV14.

Whats the matter Wardian, dont like having your own methods used against you? Because I recall you quoting someone and answering it with that very same Reds8n quote.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Um... What? If Av14 spam is "made of cardboard", then everything else in the entire game is made of tracing paper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Just don't engage with him. He will absolutely not engage in any direct matter, he's had a pretty strong track record on several threads over the last couple weeks of making strong claims and statements and then spending multiple pages deflecting and refusing to actually engage in direct discussion.

Translation: he doesnt like it when people dont allow him to troll them.

Wait... are you seriously calling Vaktathi a troll?

He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he hasn't. He listed a blob that was casually removed by several dexes.
He also doesn't take the IG to tournaments, so clearly he doesn't believe in it either.

What part of rear armor 10/11 and drop pods/Waveserpents/Melee attacks/Gauss ignores AV is confusing?

The fact that its nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

What part is that?
We used averages, and without any support from the rest of the army. For example, the eldar scatbikes could have guide or a similar power cast on them and cause a lot more wounds to the blob. I even ignored the fact that it causes ID to anything with more than 1 wound if they are T3.
Scat bikes in numbers like 20 are commonly seen in eldar lists in the competitive scene. Even the person purposing it is taking 15 in a 1500 point tournament. It's not hard to imagine he'd up it by 5 more if the tournament was in the 1800 range, which was the point range we were discussing.

Seekers can make it into melee T1/T2 pretty reliably. Crazy fast and with a bucket load of attacks.

Wraiths are also fast and too tough for this unit to handle. Wraiths are probably the most commonly scene necron unit in the competitive scene. Most guns in the IG dex don't ID wraiths and they get an invul save, making them a pain to remove. Wraiths are also very fast.

3 units of drop pods are not uncommon either.

As for the tanks, drop pods will usually be able to target rear armor. You can bubble wrap to prevent this, but then you can't take the blob since it eats up too many points between that and the tanks.
Fire dragons don't need to target rear armor. It costs a lot of points to remove WS from the table, and most competitive eldar lists have 2 or 3 units of them. Most of the time by T2 they are unloading into your lines given their insane speed.
Melee attacks, especially from MC, can destroy most tanks as well, since the rear armor is so low.
Gauss really doesn't care about your armor. It destroys AV 11 as fast as AV 6,000. Only HP matters.
Grav weapons also don't care about AV. They can be deep strikes using Tiggy, and with split fire can remove 2 tanks a turn starting early game. It's very hard for IG to remove 2+ saves with a guy in the front casting invis or re-rolling his saves. They also have hurricane bolters to remove guard if they have to, and the re-rolling to wound on the grav guns means it's not terrible against IG (not great, but not god awful).

Nothing is exaggerated. You can make a case for being able to kill WS (though I'd like to know how, between jink, speed, toughness) but the rest pretty much just happen.

@Akiasura: Don't forget that the Slaany Herald that always comes with those Seekers can forcibly challenge out the most problematic character in the IG deathblob. Such as the specific Psyker w/Forewarning, and reliably butcher him. (6A base at WS7/Initiative crazy & ap2)

That's what really makes the Seeker unit an auto-hard counter to the blob, as its accompanying Herald is one of the only models in the game capable of reliably singling out a specific enemy character, who has no way to avoid the challenge.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

Experiment 626 wrote:
@Akiasura: Don't forget that the Slaany Herald that always comes with those Seekers can forcibly challenge out the most problematic character in the IG deathblob. Such as the specific Psyker w/Forewarning, and reliably butcher him. (6A base at WS7/Initiative crazy & ap2)

That's what really makes the Seeker unit an auto-hard counter to the blob, as its accompanying Herald is one of the only models in the game capable of reliably singling out a specific enemy character, who has no way to avoid the challenge.

Yeah, I didn't want to include any support units despite the fact that, outside of necrons, stacking buffs is what makes the best codexes...well the best. Dexes like IG and Chaos Marines are filled with Skornergy.

Honestly I don't think the herald is needed, though he does seal the deal.
Does the power go away once the psyker is dead or would they still benefit from it? I know in 6th the blob losing their save giving person was catastrophic and happened immediately but I believe it's worded now that the buff would stay in place. Not sure though.

@ Typically Wardian,
My calculations included the 4++ save, and was causing roughly 23 or so wounds per turn. Without guide. With guide this gets worse, as the two main sources of damage loss are the hit chance and save.
Against the shooting units, their combat ability doesn't matter. They are too slow to catch scatbikes, for example, and with proper placement will only catch 1 squad of drop pod marines usually. Especially with a conga line placement like what is being advertised.

Against the CC units, Wraiths are simply too tough and cause too many wounds before they get to strike. Not charging cripples this unit (it almost cuts their attacks in half) and they are too slow to get the charge off against most armies combat units. Their low init also means they lose models before getting to strike, further reducing their attacks. Wraiths hit on 3's, wound on 2s, and the save is pretty good (it's the only reason they don't pretty much wipe after one turn). Guardsmen hit on 4's, wound on 6's (rerolling), need to get through 3++, then a 4+, and nothing they have stops that. The axes are slightly better, wounding on 5's. Each wraith has 2 wound, and for 600+ points you can get quite a bit of wraiths.

We aren't exaggerating, and I did take the stats of the models into account.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

You forget that the 4++ save is heavily reliant on you actually getting the power off. And depending on the army you face, that may be impossible with ML1 Psykers.

Yeah, that wonderful 4++ save which I can shut down on turn one with my Vindicare, and if your psyker does live I can just keep on denying.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

Even with the 4++ (which they don't reliably get) you're still going to remove masses of models against dedicated anti infantry tech.

I had the 4++ against those whirlwinds (in a squadron they got shred) and they got rid of 15-18 models with a single shot, and with barrage I was making a ton of LOS checks to try and save characters.

You're really not presenting an impossible to remove unit, I'm sorry. T3 4++ models are not magically difficult to remove. You need 100 wounds against those models to remove a 50 man blob, right? I can do that with ork boyz, whirlwinds, Thunderfires, bolters...they're a pain in the butt to remove; it's true. But there's almost nothing that DOESNT remove them. That's their real trouble.


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 master of ordinance wrote:
Yeah, that wonderful 4++ save which I can shut down on turn one with my Vindicare, and if your psyker does live I can just keep on denying.

Technically it's really long odds to remove a Prim Psyker in one turn with a Vindicare.

You'd have to roll the D3 shot, which is...50% to wound 50% to avoid LOS 66% to get a 2 or 3? I almost always find I'd rather take out priests with the Vindicare.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

A 4++ save doesn't help when you're only T3. You're going to be taking a ton of wounds, and you're only saving 50% of them.

'Cannot be made to fall back' doesn't matter when your opponent can just blow your super unit off the board.

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

And avoided any questions about how exactly it is incredibly survivable. Just told us to "Git gud".

 War Kitten wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

You forget that the 4++ save is heavily reliant on you actually getting the power off. And depending on the army you face, that may be impossible with ML1 Psykers.

Primaris Psykers can be taken at ML2, and you can have three of them. You have a very, very good chance of getting it.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

And avoided any questions about how exactly it is incredibly survivable. Just told us to "Git gud".

Well if you can't get a unit that tough to survive, you *do* need to "git gud".

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Except that when 50-60 models all have 4++ saves, masses of attacks and cannot be made to fall back, they really start to add up.

You forget that the 4++ save is heavily reliant on you actually getting the power off. And depending on the army you face, that may be impossible with ML1 Psykers.

Primaris Psykers can be taken at ML2, and you can have three of them. You have a very, very good chance of getting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
He is. Jancoran has shown you guys how the IG can be competitive, and you lot just ignore it and keep saying that none of it matters.

No, he didn't.

He gave us a ludicrously expensive melee unit with pitiful survivability, pitiful shooting and no way to realistically reach combat. Or even survive.

And avoided any questions about how exactly it is incredibly survivable. Just told us to "Git gud".

Well if you can't get a unit that tough to survive, you *do* need to "git gud".

How does a unit that is slow and needs to reach melee combat, and benefits in no way from cover, avoid scat bikes? How does such a large unit avoid pods? How does such a large unit avoid wraiths?
All these units have greater range and speed than the blob.