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So I used my ghostkeel for the first time yesterday and ram into a rules argument. I was playing a space marine player, and he managed to get only one of his 5 man squad within 12 inches of my ghostkeel. He claimed that because the UNIT was within 12 (not all the models, just unit), that I would not get my double cover save. I argued that its like rapid fire, if only one guy was within 12 inches only he would get to rapid fire, or in this case ignore the extra cover. Also for things like line breaker the WHOLE unit would have to be within 12. Now dropping from a 3+ save to a 5+ save is huge when you are facing down plasma with tactical doctrine rerolls. So which is it?

Cover saves are determined by model. What would you do if same model get normal cover and other cover grand by ruin(4+). Its the same so ghost outside 12" get 2+cover save

If there is no intervening terrain its 3+ not 2. The rule says the pods grant shrouded if you have stealth. So 5+ doubled is 3+.

If the ghostkeel rule refers to 'units', and not 'models', I would side with your opponent. He is correct that his firing unit is within 12" of your ghostkeel.

Other firing rules (i.e. rapid firing plasma guns) would apply of course. If the plasmagunner was more than 12" away from the ghostkeel, he would only get one shot, but if one member of the unit is within 12", that counts as his 'unit' being within 12".

Same with linebreaker - to my knowledge, if one boy of a 30-man ork boy squad is within 12" of your board edge, it counts as linebreaker.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
If the ghostkeel rule refers to 'units', and not 'models', I would side with your opponent.

It doesn't reference units nor models, only "attacks":

The cover save bonus for having the Stealth and/or Shrouded special rules is doubled for this model against attacks made at a range of greater than 12" {...}

I would agree with the OP - measure on a model-by-model basis, just like Rapid Fire.

 Quanar wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
If the ghostkeel rule refers to 'units', and not 'models', I would side with your opponent.

It doesn't reference units nor models, only "attacks":

The cover save bonus for having the Stealth and/or Shrouded special rules is doubled for this model against attacks made at a range of greater than 12" {...}

I would agree with the OP - measure on a model-by-model basis, just like Rapid Fire.

If it references attacks, I would then agree with the OP as well.

 Orock wrote:
If there is no intervening terrain its 3+ not 2. The rule says the pods grant shrouded if you have stealth. So 5+ doubled is 3+.

Right. They don't take away the original stealth, so the ghost keel has a 2+ in the open versus attacks >12" (+3 doubled is +6, but a1 always fails)

The distance between units is the shortest distance between any element of those units. The rulebook states that.

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Orock wrote:
If there is no intervening terrain its 3+ not 2. The rule says the pods grant shrouded if you have stealth. So 5+ doubled is 3+.

Right. They don't take away the original stealth, so the ghost keel has a 2+ in the open versus attacks >12" (+3 doubled is +6, but a1 always fails)

Grants shrouded INSTEAD, sorry I left out an important piece. Instead of stealth.

 Orock wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Orock wrote:
If there is no intervening terrain its 3+ not 2. The rule says the pods grant shrouded if you have stealth. So 5+ doubled is 3+.

Right. They don't take away the original stealth, so the ghost keel has a 2+ in the open versus attacks >12" (+3 doubled is +6, but a1 always fails)

Grants shrouded INSTEAD, sorry I left out an important piece. Instead of stealth.

Yes the Ghostkeel has his stealth turn into shrouded.

But the drones he has start with shrouded and as such get stealth added to their shrouded. and as such their stealth then confers back onto the ghostkeel giving the who unit +3 to cover (which is then doubled to +6)

You guys are misreading the Ghostkeel rules.

It already has Stealth. The drones give Stealth to those who don't have it, and Shrouded to those who have. In no way it REPLACES the original GK's Stealth, but add to it.

Ghostkeels have 2+ in the open against attacks originated farther than 12" of it; without the drones, Ghostkeels have a wimpy 5+ in the same situation.

The drones themselves have 4+ always (Shrouded they confer to themselves after getting Stealth from GK).

 Orock wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:

 Orock wrote:
If there is no intervening terrain its 3+ not 2. The rule says the pods grant shrouded if you have stealth. So 5+ doubled is 3+.

Right. They don't take away the original stealth, so the ghost keel has a 2+ in the open versus attacks >12" (+3 doubled is +6, but a1 always fails)

Grants shrouded INSTEAD, sorry I left out an important piece. Instead of stealth.

um no lol. Reread the rule. It gets both stealth AND shrouded. the "instead" indicates that it gains shrouded in place of gaining stealth, since it already has it

 Orock wrote:
So I used my ghostkeel for the first time yesterday and ram into a rules argument. I was playing a space marine player, and he managed to get only one of his 5 man squad within 12 inches of my ghostkeel. He claimed that because the UNIT was within 12 (not all the models, just unit), that I would not get my double cover save. I argued that its like rapid fire, if only one guy was within 12 inches only he would get to rapid fire, or in this case ignore the extra cover. Also for things like line breaker the WHOLE unit would have to be within 12. Now dropping from a 3+ save to a 5+ save is huge when you are facing down plasma with tactical doctrine rerolls. So which is it?

A Attack is made by a Unit. During a attack the single Models shoot. So as a Attack is a Unit activity id' say that you have to look at the entire Unit. As the BRB tells us the distance between units is meassured between the closest Models of each unit.
Thus the firing unit is less than 12' away. So the Attack is from less than 12" so no double for you.

 _ghost_ wrote:

 Orock wrote:
So I used my ghostkeel for the first time yesterday and ram into a rules argument. I was playing a space marine player, and he managed to get only one of his 5 man squad within 12 inches of my ghostkeel. He claimed that because the UNIT was within 12 (not all the models, just unit), that I would not get my double cover save. I argued that its like rapid fire, if only one guy was within 12 inches only he would get to rapid fire, or in this case ignore the extra cover. Also for things like line breaker the WHOLE unit would have to be within 12. Now dropping from a 3+ save to a 5+ save is huge when you are facing down plasma with tactical doctrine rerolls. So which is it?

A Attack is made by a Unit. During a attack the single Models shoot. So as a Attack is a Unit activity id' say that you have to look at the entire Unit. As the BRB tells us the distance between units is meassured between the closest Models of each unit.
Thus the firing unit is less than 12' away. So the Attack is from less than 12" so no double for you.

Your a bit late. Its already been proven to be the opposite.

Could you be so kind and quote me this part ? i read through the thread and well. i couldnt see it.

While the attack can be made within 12", the cover save is made by model. So models further than 12" will get the double bonus,

 Vector Strike wrote:
While the attack can be made within 12", the cover save is made by model. So models further than 12" will get the double bonus,

Cover saves are made on a model by model basis. Now prove how that matters to this case.

Fragile wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
While the attack can be made within 12", the cover save is made by model. So models further than 12" will get the double bonus,

Cover saves are made on a model by model basis. Now prove how that matters to this case.

The wording for ghostkeel's ability is "is doubled for this model against attacks made at a range of greater than 12". Attacks are PER MODEL basis, not per unit. Thus, individual models within 12" would be the only ones to negate the ability. The rest of the unit would not.

Fragile wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
While the attack can be made within 12", the cover save is made by model. So models further than 12" will get the double bonus,

Cover saves are made on a model by model basis. Now prove how that matters to this case.

Nah. I came looking for how it works and found the overwhelming majority answer. Play it wrong if you want, I'm good.

 Orock wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
While the attack can be made within 12", the cover save is made by model. So models further than 12" will get the double bonus,

Cover saves are made on a model by model basis. Now prove how that matters to this case.

Nah. I came looking for how it works and found the overwhelming majority answer. Play it wrong if you want, I'm good.

Majority answer isn't related to the correctness of that answer. In this case cover is on a model by model basis for the TARGET unit. It receives cover if it gets cover from at least one model in the firing unit. It must have the same cover save from all attacks from a particular unit. So where is the attack coming from? Well from the unit (shooting attacks are a unit level choice see step 1 of the shooting phase), is the unit more than 12" away? Unfortunately not so no double cover save. You're stuck with 4+ unless there is some intervening terrain or you're in area terrain in which case it is a 2+. If you're not getting a 2+ cover save with this guy it is entirely your own fault, no need to try to change the rules to get one when you shouldn't have.

 Orock wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
While the attack can be made within 12", the cover save is made by model. So models further than 12" will get the double bonus,

Cover saves are made on a model by model basis. Now prove how that matters to this case.

Nah. I came looking for how it works and found the overwhelming majority answer. Play it wrong if you want, I'm good.

Play it wrong? How do you know how I play it. Cover saves are made model by model. That is true and while it sounds all pretty, it has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. There is no mechanism to determine where a particular shot inside a group comes from. The only thing you have is "measuring distances rule"

Distances between models and all other objects (which can be other models, terrain features and so on) are always measured from the closest point on one base to the closest point on the other base. Distances between units are always measured to and from the bases of the closest models in each of the units (see the diagram below).

You can stick to your Model by Model and "its like Rapid Fire" argument, but currently you have nothing RAW to go with.

As i already said. During the shooting phase you make shooting attacks. The Ghostkneel Rule reffers to these Attacks. As lons as there is any Model of a firing unit is within 12" then the attack is within 12"

Also keep in mind that the Rule of the ghostkeel doesn't determine if a single model has a cover save at all. It cange a possible cover save for the entire unit.

So how can you stuck to your " its like rapid fire" reading at all?
Where is your RAW basis to this?

_ghost_

I may be mistaken, but I am pretty sure it's a model by model basis. So the guy inside the bubble would ignore the buff, but the guys outside would not.

I don't have the GK rules with me at the moment but I do have a BRB on my phone. There's even an illustration of orks being shot at by marines with 3 different cover saves. It is under the heading "Units in Cover" in the "Shooting Phase" section. Sorry no page number.

I think what our OP friend is saying that it's "similar to rapid fire" is that from his point of view (getting the buffs vs some of the squad and not from the guy within 12"), that the guy inside 12" gets 2 shots that ignore the buff and the guys outside get 1. He's using this as an allegory to a "Model by model" shooting argument to support his case. Maybe that's what he's talking about....

Anyhoo....
HIWPI: GK gets buffs vs the SMs outside of the 12" bubble. And that they don't get to charge since they rapid fired of course.

Cover is model by model for the TARGET, you determine if that model receives cover from a UNIT.

doktor_g :

sure. cover saves are resolved individualy by models.

But the Ghostkeel rule does reffer to the entire "Attack" if they were meant to your "bubble" solution then the rule should have a writing that reffers to "shots" you get my point?

I don't see why some are having such trouble here.

You take your marines firing at the GK and count how many are within 12.

Then you count the ones outside 12.

Roll the attacks and saves from each group separately, adjusting the saves appropriately.

We've always done this in every game before this rule came up. In a similar vein of logic, we know an attack with melta that isn't in half range isn't going to get a bonus because other models are within that range.

 obsidianaura wrote:
I don't see why some are having such trouble here.

You take your marines firing at the GK and count how many are within 12.

Then you count the ones outside 12.

Roll the attacks and saves from each group separately, adjusting the saves appropriately.

We've always done this in every game before this rule came up. In a similar vein of logic, we know an attack with melta that isn't in half range isn't going to get a bonus because other models are within that range.

That's not how cover works at all. You don't split attacks you work out cover from the firing unit as a whole, so if you get cover from one member of the shooting unit you get cover. If you're within 12" of one member of the shooting unit you are within 12".

So say you're playing against someone who has shrouded/stealth and you have 1 man in range of the unit and the rest not, the whole firing unit ignores?

What are you on about? Why would being within 12" have any impact on stealth or shrouded?

 FlingitNow wrote:
What are you on about? Why would being within 12" have any impact on stealth or shrouded?

In the case of the ghostkeel it says they lose the cover within 12. However re reading it it says any MODEL within 12 ignores, not unit.