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As it stands today outside of assault is kinda meh right now outside a few deathstar units. What changes can be made to it more viable
   
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Don't play 40k...

Or disallow Tau/Eldar/DE at any FLGS and simply only allow Orks

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Perhaps make charging 6+D6 inches?
Or maybe include more assault vehicles in armies?

There's a lot of things that can be done to make assault more viable. Let's see if we can get a decent discussion going here.

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Allow charging out of stationary vehicles?

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Allow charging out of stationary vehicles?


I think that'd be a good start. That or being able to assault if you've embarked out of a wrecked transport (you can't unless the wreck was an assault vehicle).

Also, I would reduce the amount of Overwatch. I like the idea of Overwatch, but some armies make so much use of it that it can completely tear you apart.

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Maybe a leadership test to perform overwatch? that way it's not a given
   
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Unfortunately that somewhat screws over low LD armies like Orks, while not really bothering those with higher leaderships (I.e Marines and Eldar)

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Best way to make assault viable is to tone down shooting. If assault units didn't get blown off the board before getting anywhere, then Assault would be much more viable


 
   
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Make Assaulting out of a non assault vehicle a disordered charge

As well as able to do so out of Reserves though it might be too strong.

maybe not out of a drop pod but make it a thing for jump packs since there is almost no reason to take them.


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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Random charge range and removing models from the front where some of the biggest assault killers when everything changed after 5th
   
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Little Rock, Arkansas

-pick a change to random assault range. I'm a fan of d6 + init. 2d6 with minimum 4", max 10" is good too.

-Change overwatch
Either to "If a unit overwatches, any weapons that fired during overwatch may not fire on their following shooting phase."
Or to "you may overwatch instead of shoot. If you do, the unit gains interceptor until the following turn. If it is declared as a target of an assault and hasn't fired, it may fire as if doing a normal shooting attack." Or something like that.
Get rid of the "shoot, shoot, suddenly-shoot-more-because-they're-charging, keep-shooting-without-missing-a-beat." Silliness.

-Fix assault from vehicles, especially blown up ones.
(Imagine this as a pen and paper game session
"Ok tom, As it creeps forward at combat speed, the rhino disintegrates around you from a dark lance. You pass all pinning and morale checks."
Tom: "Ok I'll charge."
"Nope can't. Dem rules."
"Now Jake, After cruising and going flat out, the land raider disintegrates around you . You pass all morale and pinning checks."
Jake: "Ok...I'll.....charge?"
"Yep the land raider had a door on the front before the entire thing vanished from around you, so that's legal."
Tom: "What if the rhino's door was facing the enemy? "
"Nope sorry Tom, Dem's the rules.

-Change the rules to be less schizophrenic about whether they want people to be able to do damage out of reserves or not. Either charges from reserve need to be in, (and not just on a formation here and there,) or massive firepower from pods and webways etc needs to get out. Either both should be welcome or neither should be.

-Another schizo section of rules to fix: anytime a charge is disallowed, it is disallowed period. Roll 6's all you want, you just can't do it.
Most the time shooting is disallowed, it's not ACTUALLY disallowed, it just becomes harder to hit things. You can still get lucky and shoot things to death after "being unable to shoot."

-Fix the horrible overcostedness of melee weapons. 25 points to hit almost as hard as a meltagun in combat while attacking last, or 10 points to just shoot a meltagun without taking attacks first... 15 points to make your standard strength melee into ap3. 15 points to shoot s8 ap3 from across the entire board with the option of doing small blasts if the situation calls for it.

-Fix the WS chart. Tau shouldn't be hitting marines on 4's.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/10 22:59:47


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Overwatch is honestly NOT that bad. It is more the issue of how painful it is to get into assault on top of it.

If it is easier to assault, why would I care if the opponent gets a few shots at me?

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Overwatch is honestly NOT that bad. It is more the issue of how painful it is to get into assault on top of it.

If it is easier to assault, why would I care if the opponent gets a few shots at me?


Depends on the enemy army really. Overwatch from some marines is hardly notable. Trying to assault a tau gun line where everything is in support fire range is silly, and when you follow that up with them getting an unpenalized shooting phase after you fail the charge, it just rubs me the wrong way. My "you shouldn't get something for nothing" sense just starts tingling.

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That said, I think making it so that you have to sacrifice your shooting phase in order to take a Ld test to maybe be able to snap-fire at a unit charging you is an exceedingly bad trade.

WS does need a fix, but as I pointed out in another thread, making the armies who are awful at melee even more awful mostly doesn't fix the current issues. What should be fixed is units with decent but not awesome WS hitting gods-of-combat on 4+ - that really doesn't seem right. Fire Warriors hitting Assault Marines on a 4? Bah, they're going to die anyway. Assault Marines hitting Lelith Hesperax on a 4? Hmmm... That feels a little off to me. But in broad strokes, yes, fix WS.

And charging from blown-up vehicles? Yes. Everyone should be able to charge if their vehicle is wrecked/exploded, as long as they aren't pinned or Falling Back. Maybe make it Disordered unless you make a Ld check?

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Isn't the real issue with assault the fact that most assaulting armies rely on some type of vehicle to get into assault range and vehicle rules as they are now make it hard to get those assault units to the front line. I suppose the other issue is how to get beasts, jump, bikes and cavalry into assault without being killed in shooting.

Below are some suggestions to fix assault:

General Rule change - Units with cover saves cannot have those saves ignored by a weapon or ability when being shot at in overwatch. Those weapons can still fire but do not ignore cover. Abilities that reduce cover saves can be used. This is to simulate the unit being charged reacting out of survival instinct. +++Tau can't use marker lights to ignore cover, but supporting fire still gives them an advantage due to weight of fire. Lets armies with reducing cover by 1 rules like admech units with omnispex or luminagen still have a bit of an advantage.
ALL FLYERS CAN HOVER

Upgrades for all units that get themselves into assault range: - Cavalry and (jet)bikes generally have access to invulnerable saves, agile, skilled rider or turbo bosting or other abilities and the the subject of deathstars where they are getting FNP. I didn't see the, needing anything more.
Jink + Relentless
All Cavalry gain the above rules
Jink
All Beasts, jump units, Jet Pack get Jink

NEW RULE FOR BEASTS
Slink
Beasts cannot be targeted by shooting attacks until they are 12" away from the attacker - Signifies the beast stalking its prey, staying low to the ground and moving quietly.

NEW RULE FOR JUMP
Rapid Assault
Jump models can run 6+d6 and can still shoot. These shots would be snap shots. If they do not shoot they can Run and assault.

Drop Pods - Units can assault from Drop Pods.
++New drop pod rule: Furious Impact: - When drop pods land, units assaulting from that drop pod as well as all units within 6" of the drop pod are reduced to Initiative 1 regardless of unit rules or wargear, also assaulting forces receive a 5+ cover save in overwatch - cannot be improved. (signifies the dust and debris blasted out from a drop pod impact into the ground) - This lets drop pod armies assault but gives defenders some recourse.

All vehicles should be assault vehicles with out penalty
- Open topped vehicles should get some kind of bonus rule - "Rapid Egress" - units disembarking an open topped vehicles get +3 inches to charge range.

Give smoke launchers another purpose - "Fog of War" - Once per game, a vehicle that has a fog of war emitter, such as smoke launchers, can use the emitter in the assault phase to provide a defensive cover to the units assaulting from it. When "Fog of War" is activated, charging units get a 4+ cover save. This can be used even if the vehicle has already popped smoke. - THEN GIVE ALL ARMIES IN 40K a vehicles upgrade that has this ability and make it available to all TRANSPORT vehicles!


Update Vehicles Damange Table
Make the vehicles damage table 2 to 12. AP of Weapons changes - AP3 +3, AP2 +4 AP1 +5 - Roll 2D6
Roll:
2 Armor Deflection: Vehicles does not loose a hull point - Crew fights with increased zeal and their faith in their machine of war is renewed. In the vehicles next turn, as long as it does not take damage until then, the vehicle can move its maximum distance in the movement phase and shoot all of its weapons at full Ballistics skill in the shooting phase.
3-5 Light Damage: - Vehicle loses a hull point
6-7 Crew Shaken: - Vehicle can only fire Snap Shots until the end of its next turn.
8-10 Crew Stunned: - As Shaken, and can only move 6", and can only move in a 45 degree arc from front of the vehicle. Cannot pivot. - Zooming Flyers can only move 18” next turn and can only move in a 45 degree arc from front of the vehicle.
11-12 Weapon Destroyed:- One random weapon is destroyed. - Includes upgrade weapons. - Does not include out of ammunition weapons. - If no weapons, count as crippled.
13 Crippled: - As Stunned but the effects on movement last the rest of the game. If crippled again the vehicle uses the immobilized results.
14 Immobilised: - Cannot move or pivot any more. - Chariots count as Crew Stunned. - Zooming Flyers must d6 on this result. On a roll 6+ to count as Crippled Flyer, 4-5 the flier is drops to hover mode and acts as a crippled skimmer. On a 1-3 Crash and Burn. - Additional Immobilised results remove a hull Point.
15+ Explodes: - Vehicle is destroyed. - Nearby units suffer S4AP- for each model within D6” of the hull. - Remove the model. - Zooming Flyers will Crash and Burn.

Here are the probabilities of rolling each combination on 2D6
(combinations are out of 36):

Roll Comb. Prob.
---- ----- -----
2 1 2.8%
3 2 5.6
4 3 8.3
5 4 11.1
6 5 13.9
7 6 16.7
8 5 13.9
9 4 11.1
10 3 8.3
11 2 5.6
12 1 2.8

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2015/11/11 17:05:35


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Niv has a good set of suggestions. BA would still be bad, but at least better.

And yes, I would not play with a GM who didn't allow me to assault from a disintegrated Rhino but did allow assault from a disintegrated LR.
   
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Bodt

Remove the Assault Vehicle rule, just make everything an assault vehicle. maybe add a bonus for open-topped as described above.

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 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Remove the Assault Vehicle rule, just make everything an assault vehicle. maybe add a bonus for open-topped as described above.

I'm inclined to agree. Before overwatch was a thing (well, before it was a thing again) maybe being able to assault from vehicles was too strong, but not now.
At least give all armies access to at least one assault vehicle. Taking Bullgryns in a Chimera the other day and trying to get them into assault, but first having to have them jump out of their transport, in front of all the enemies guns for a turn while their target has time to move away? At no point did that seem to be a sensible option.
   
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 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Remove the Assault Vehicle rule, just make everything an assault vehicle. maybe add a bonus for open-topped as described above.


Pass leadership test and transport acts as an assault vehicle for that turn?

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 Bishop F Gantry wrote:
 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Remove the Assault Vehicle rule, just make everything an assault vehicle. maybe add a bonus for open-topped as described above.


Pass leadership test and transport acts as an assault vehicle for that turn?


iniative test. Makes logical sense

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 Bishop F Gantry wrote:
 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Remove the Assault Vehicle rule, just make everything an assault vehicle. maybe add a bonus for open-topped as described above.


Pass leadership test and transport acts as an assault vehicle for that turn?

Obviously I'd prefer without the leadership check, but hey, anything would be better than nothing.

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You guys are making WAY too much sense in here, just stop it right now.

Seriously though, great ideas, I might try out a few during some Beerhammer games. I'm kinda bummed that the current edition is so focused on shooty armies that get to make free shooting turns on overwatch with absolutely no penalty to shooting during THEIR turn. It really does downplay assault, almost to the point of "well why bother assaulting,we'll just have a Mexican standoff 1" away from each other"

 GoonBandito wrote:
Best way to make assault viable is to tone down shooting. If assault units didn't get blown off the board before getting anywhere, then Assault would be much more viable

The main army I play against is Tau, and even trying to get into combat with Firewarriors makes it almost not worth it. The amount of S5 rapid fire shots they get is ridiculous, and even more so with an Ethereal.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/15 05:23:55


 
   
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Another problem is the disparity between effectiveness of shooting vs assault. Even the best assault units generally hit on no better than 3s, while average shooting units hit on 3s with 2+ to hit being a possibility for some. Furthermore the proliferation of high rate-of-fire low-AP weapons has made things like thunderhammers and power axes unnecessary. Shooting doesn't need base contact to deal damage. And with all this, shooting units are still cheaper. For example, a dreadknight does 5 AP2 attacks that generally hit on 3s and wound on 2s on the charge for roughly 175 pts (no gun), while a centurion devastator does 5 AP2 attacks that also hit on 3s and against 2+ save units wound on re-rollable 2s for 80 pts. There are a lot of other factors like cover and sweeping advances, but on the whole shooting units do more damage per point than melee units.

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There are some balancing factors, though: being shot at doesn't stop you from shooting (barring kills, of course, but assault also kills things, so that comes out in the wash), but if you get assaulted, you cannot shoot or charge any other units, even if the enemy unit inflicts no damage at all. Sweeping advance is quite significant also - you can lose one model in combat and then have an entire unit deleted. Shooting generally can't do that.

That said, I agree that the game is generally slanted in favor of shooting, perhaps too much so. Tau are a little bit of an odd example, though - they're the closest thing to entirely helpless in CC. They have bad WS, bad initiative, bad S/T (except suits) and usually only a small number of attacks. They get steamrolled even by units that aren't really assault units (like Kabalite Warriors or Termagants), so they pretty much have to be able to shoot assault units to death before they arrive, or else they spend the rest of the game asking the assault army player which unit to remove.

That said, it's a little too easy to shoot assault units off the table with armies that aren't so helpless in melee, like Necrons, Space Wolves, Eldar, Tyranids and so forth. A lot of the suggestions here make good sense. Removing Overwatch wouldn't help very much, though: you'd still have difficulty getting most assault units in range without being shot to death first.

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I will get lynched for this, but....

The rules between assault and Shooting are fairly well balanced, it is the cost of the respective options that cause the power gulf between them. In the other thread I asked about the cost of a Lascannon as compared to a power fist. The Lascannon should cost more, or the power fist less, or a combination of the two. The best way to fix the disparage between the two is to actually use a system for giving the models a point cost rather than the "it just felt right" model GW uses.

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I think the best way to fix assault is these 3 things:

1:Remove some of the randomness of charge with something like 6 + d6 inches. I used to like the idea of 3+d6 for units that moved 6inches and anything faster getting 5+d6 inches. Relentless adds an inch. Slow and purposeful subtracts an inch. But that just makes certain things too good.

2:Allow disordered charges from transports. Allow charges from assault vehicles regardless of access point.

3:Fix the weapon and in some cases troop costs of melee/assault weapons/troops. Most of them overly costly. Seriously, power weapons, fists, T hammers, L claws, ect are for the most part overpriced. By about 5 points I'd say. There are a few weapons that are fine, but those ones are usually ridiculously good/versatile.

I think if you did these three things assault and shooting would be dead equal, and would open up the game list variety even more.

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Allow charges out of non assault vehicles, but deduct their charge roll by 3"

Charges should be 6+D6 or just 12 again anyway. If that were the case, change the deduction to 6 for the rule above.

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Units may make a disordered charge the turn they arrive from reserves.
Units may only snapfire the turn they arrive from reserves.

Hey, look. Equality.
   
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Bodt

raverrn wrote:

Units may only snapfire the turn they arrive from reserves.


Oh man, Space Marine players would fill their pants if they did this

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 KharnsRightHand wrote:
raverrn wrote:

Units may only snapfire the turn they arrive from reserves.


Oh man, Space Marine players would fill their pants if they did this


I wouldn't. I already rarely use reserves.
   
 
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