Hide And Seek: Tanith First and Only versus the Raven Guard

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**Anfauglir**

dusara217 wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
MkVenna may be a stick ninja, but he does get tired - he only killed about a hundred traitor guardsmen while holding a stairwell before he had to be pulled out or he'd have been overwhelmed.

lel, 'only'

I know, right. "Only" a hundred...

Grey Templar wrote:
The Tanith get slaughtered. With Plot armor they kill a few Raven Guard in the process. Without they never even see their attackers.

It isn't a battle, it's who spots who first/who can hide the best.

**changemod**

I think, given that really both sides involve veterans and plot armour and such, it comes down more to a matter of superior marine equipment than the gene enhancement gap.

**Ashiraya**

Grey Templar wrote:
The Tanith get slaughtered. With Plot armor they kill a few Raven Guard in the process. Without they never even see their attackers.

Grey Templar gets it. This is a curb stomp battle.

**Grey Templar**

Anfauglir wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
The Tanith get slaughtered. With Plot armor they kill a few Raven Guard in the process. Without they never even see their attackers.

It isn't a battle, it's who spots who first/who can hide the best.

Correct, its a massacre.

**dusara217**

Let's tally up the points here:
Experience-wise, each member of the Raven Guard has decades of combat experience under his belt, and Veterans have served for centuries. Whereas, Tanith First and Only that survive for decades are both a.)lucky as hellfire and b.) Veterans. Point for Raven Guard.

Stealth-wise, the Raven Guard have accomplished feats such as cramming an entire squad of fully armoured Space Marines into a tiny room during negotiations without them being detected as well as infiltrating an entire Company of Space Marines into an Iron Warriors fortress. Whereas Tanith sneak through camps and use camo cloaks to make it seem like they're wraiths to the other IG. I wanna say point Raven Guard.

Combat-wise, I shouldn't even have to go into this. Point Raven Guard.

Plot-armour-wise, the Tanith survive full frontal assaults against Chaos Marines and somehow evade both mindwiping and execution. Whereas Raven Guard somehow survive insurmountable odds. Gotta go with Tanith on this one.

So, let's see here... Raven Guard 3, Tanith 1. Raven Guard wins

**Ashiraya**

Every time people set up this kind of fight, I am reminded of this video.

**Wyzilla**

Bobthehero wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
Space Marines can hear your heart beating.

So just throw a hive of bees or three at them and the sound will make them go crazy, besides, that never prevented the Tanith from ambushing those 5 CSM in the book where they did it. Same with Auspex and all that.

The gene-seed implants allow Astartes to filter out noises they don't want to hear. So for example a in a subway full of mindless chatter, they can still pick out an individual. The Lyman's Ear is a magical thing.

**Bobthehero**

How would they know that this heartbeat belongs to a guardsmen with the means to kill a SM and not just another civilian hiding and who will be killed once the non hidden ones are.

**Wyzilla**

Bobthehero wrote:
How would they know that this heartbeat belongs to a guardsmen with the means to kill a SM and not just another civilian hiding and who will be killed once the non hidden ones are.

Their BPP would probably give them away, although at that distance autosenses should pick them up anyway.

**Furyou Miko**

I think that any civilian in a warzone with Marines is going to be most of the way towards a panic attack, lol.

**dusara217**

Furyou Miko wrote:
I think that any civilian in a warzone with Marines is going to be most of the way towards a panic attack, lol.

Or a Traitor Guardsman, for that matter.

**Psienesis**

Bobthehero wrote:
How would they know that this heartbeat belongs to a guardsmen with the means to kill a SM and not just another civilian hiding and who will be killed once the non hidden ones are.

Because the auto-senses and preysense auspex systems in the helmet provide a tactical overlay in the Marine's vision that reveals "oh, look, that guy's got a lasgun and the outline of IG kit behind that rock over there".

**Grey Templar**

Bobthehero wrote:
How would they know that this heartbeat belongs to a guardsmen with the means to kill a SM and not just another civilian hiding and who will be killed once the non hidden ones are.

And? The Space Marine just kills them both.

**Bobthehero**

He's too busy killing someone else

**Wyzilla**

Bobthehero wrote:
He's too busy killing someone else

Unless humans have suddenly developed flesh resistant to explosive rounds, the people he's "busy" killing died a half second ago.

**Bobthehero**

There's a lot of people, can only kill so much at the time. And cover is still a thing.

**Tactical_Spam**

EngulfedObject wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
I would have to say the Tanith, mostly because I'm a big fan of the book series and firmly believe that those guys can apparently hide from anything and not get caught.
I'm currently reading the series and enjoying it, but let's face it, the Tanith's modus operandi is basically to creep stealthily forward and engage from the front at first sight of the enemy while a few squads slip past enemy lines.

They're pretty badass but the way Dan Abnett writes their engagements, they should be long dead by now (remember, they are light infantry):

Attacking CSM head-on: check
Attacking superior forces head-on: check
Attacking heavily armored forces head-on: check
Trench warfare: check
Siege warfare (as in standing on the walls, repelling enemy attacks): check
Assaulting fortifications: check
Bayonet charges: check

That's only by Book three (Necropolis).

He also wraps them in a thick layer of plot armor. Corbec and 60 men caught in the open and engage 200+ heavily armored Zoicans? Next scene, Corbec and most men intact moving up. Zoicans? Dead.

Or scenes like

Spoiler:

Nacedon, where 10 Tanith plus a few wounded Bluebloods fight off an enemy assault of several hundred. They basically defend a farmhouse that is surrounded by woods using lasguns and flamethrowers. Chaos couldn't just blow it up instead of zombie rushing it? Okay.

Or

Spoiler:

where a single squad gets an entire Chaos army to suicide.

They get caught up in impossible fights all the time and just fight in the open until they prevail or reinforcements arrive. Not the best way to operate as light/stealth infantry.

And finally, let's face it: they're only human. Raven Guard are more than human. Growing up on a difficult-to-navigate forest world does not make you superhuman (even though DA might think they are, with Tanith apparently having defeated CSM in close combat one-on-one and lived, and with M'koll outstealthing a DE Mandrake - haven't gotten to that part yet though).

You forgot the part where M'koll kills a Helbrute with a lasgun

**Furyou Miko**

A lasgun and an entire field of poisoned spike-spitting cacti that react to sound, and the lasgun was destroyed in the process dying a heroic warrior's death.

**Bobthehero**

And the dread was blinded, too, I think

But apparently, dreads aren't that much of a problem for IG (see: Cadian Blood)

**Ashiraya**

Furyou Miko wrote:
A lasgun and an entire field of poisoned spike-spitting cacti that react to sound, and the lasgun was destroyed in the process dying a heroic warrior's death.

C-C-C-CACTALITY!

**Wyzilla**

Ashiraya wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote:
A lasgun and an entire field of poisoned spike-spitting cacti that react to sound, and the lasgun was destroyed in the process dying a heroic warrior's death.

C-C-C-CACTALITY!

"C"

Ashi you had one job.

**Ashiraya**

Ah, of course.

KACTALITY!

**Grey Templar**

Now I want a 40k Street Fighter game.

**Ashiraya**

Grey Templar wrote:
Now I want a 40k Mortal Kombat game.

Don't we all!

The knockdown-heavy gameplay would look a bit odd with Astartes though.

**Furyou Miko**

If you take the characters' actual weights into account, Mortal Kombat's floor game doesn't really work anyway..

**Ashiraya**

Well, no, but consider the fact that a Marine can be many times their weight and you really start to push it.

**Bobthehero**

Send Ogryn, laugh at puny marines.

**EngulfedObject**

Bobthehero wrote:
Send Ogryn, laugh at puny marines.

There are no Ogryn in the Tanith 1st, and this is about stealth, which Ogryn kinda suck at.

At this point you're trolling.

**Bobthehero**

Talking about the Mortal Kombat game.

**Tactical_Spam**

Ashiraya wrote:
Ah, of course.

KACTALITY!

K-K-K-K-KACTIBREAKER