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 MLaw wrote:

Bloodbowl - Fantasy Rugby

Ahem?

Blood Bowl is Fantasy NFL, you can't pass the ball forwards in rugby, there's no line of scrimmage, you can only tackle the ball carrier...

 Azreal13 wrote:
Bringing them back makes complete sense, other competitors have taken the risk and proven there is an appetite for these games, and GW is in a place to capitalise on that appetite like no other wargaming company.

It will be irrelevant if (insert game here) is the most expensive example of it's kind, as long as the quality of product on offer is sufficient for the price in most people's view, it will sell.

Where they'll fall over is the price.

If a gang of 10 Necromunda models (multi-part kit) costs US$80, then it doesn't matter how awesome Newcromunda is. If the entry price to Newheim is a $280 boxed set that has 25 minis and some cardboard terrain, then it won't matter if it's the greatest skirmish game ever written. If Newpic has the best 6mm minis made of all time it won't matter if a squadron of Land Raiders cost its (literal) weight in gold.

New Bowl.
Battlefleet Newthic.
Newkamorka
Newhammer Quest.
Newquisitor.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

But then, it will be near impossible to justify the quality vs cost.

I agree the weak link is potentially cost, but they have the potential to produce something that justifies a premium was essentially my point, whether they strike the balance is a big, but different, question.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The reason why I mentioned Judge Dredd and Star Wars is quell the myth that GW's games sell because they have a strong fluff appeal.

They do. Their two greatest things GW has at their disposal are:

1. Their in-house plastics manufacturing capabilities.
2. Their IP.

They do sell games because of their strong fluff appeal. To say anything contrary to that is to deny reality.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

Bloodbowl - Fantasy Rugby

Ahem?

Blood Bowl is Fantasy NFL, you can't pass the ball forwards in rugby, there's no line of scrimmage, you can only tackle the ball carrier...

Well..it aint NFL either.. you can't pass the ball once you're past the line of scrimmage.

So, does this notice of games coming up in the next couple years and the secrecy veil falling away lend credence to the New Line Cinema agreement? The one discussed before that NLC told them they had to stifle N&R during LotR and Hobbit for even their own lines after a LotR model was leaked early? Looks possible that GW was a victim too.

Damn, this new hard, white suit is uncomfortable. I don't like it.

 MLaw wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

Bloodbowl - Fantasy Rugby

Ahem?

Blood Bowl is Fantasy NFL, you can't pass the ball forwards in rugby, there's no line of scrimmage, you can only tackle the ball carrier...

Well..it aint NFL either.. you can't pass the ball once you're past the line of scrimmage.

It's a mighty site closer.

And with that we can hopefully move on, not worry about being super-awesome 100% right and get on topic, right?

Because I'm certainly still excited by the prospects of a revitalized SG!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Bringing them back makes complete sense, other competitors have taken the risk and proven there is an appetite for these games, and GW is in a place to capitalise on that appetite like no other wargaming company.

It will be irrelevant if (insert game here) is the most expensive example of it's kind, as long as the quality of product on offer is sufficient for the price in most people's view, it will sell.

Where they'll fall over is the price.

If a gang of 10 Necromunda models (multi-part kit) costs US$80, then it doesn't matter how awesome Newcromunda is. If the entry price to Newheim is a $280 boxed set that has 25 minis and some cardboard terrain, then it won't matter if it's the greatest skirmish game ever written. If Newpic has the best 6mm minis made of all time it won't matter if a squadron of Land Raiders cost its (literal) weight in gold.

New Bowl.
Battlefleet Newthic.
Newkamorka
Newhammer Quest.
Newquisitor.

Sorry, had to get that out of my system.

What world are you living in that 10 high quality models for a skirmish game don't cost $80? For that scale of game, that's kind of what you expect (that's pretty much on par with Malifaux, for example).

Considering what's in betrayal at calth for the price, I don't think we'll be looking at any enclosed box sets at $280.

Looking at blood bowl for example, in terms of third parties, 100 euros is pretty much the price you expect to pay for a full squad of 16. If GW do an excellent team, I'd probably pay a bit more than that.

Then you start to look at star players for $15-20 a pop.

On the prices.. they have been doing a good job on big box releases. Dark Vengeance, Stormclaw, Island of Blood.. even the Age of Sigmar box is an incredible value. When I bought the Mordheim and BFG boxes they were I think $85 on sale (it's been a while.. might've been $75 on sale). The games were still in production so that's not an e-bay purchase or anything. I bought the other games in pieces or traded so I don't know how much they were MSRP... though I could dig it up in White Dwarf if I was really curious.
That said
Betrayal at Calth is MSRP $150 with 30 marines, 6 terminators, and a Dread. That's a hefty box cost but compared to buying the models, even at discount, it's a bargain in GW terms. Not sure I'll be able to swallow $150 for a SG unless it's loaded to the gills with goodies.

 MLaw wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

Bloodbowl - Fantasy Rugby

Ahem?

Blood Bowl is Fantasy NFL, you can't pass the ball forwards in rugby, there's no line of scrimmage, you can only tackle the ball carrier...

Well..it aint NFL either.. you can't pass the ball once you're past the line of scrimmage.

It's a cross between rugby and American-rules football, but the fluff pulls most heavily from the latter. From Wikipedia:

Blood Bowl includes numerous tongue in cheek references to real life products and companies. The deity overseeing Blood Bowl is Nuffle - a pun on the pronunciation of NFL. The game spoofs at least four real-world trademarks, including McDonald's (McMurty's), Budweiser (Bloodweiser), Adidas (Orcidas), and Gatorade (Kroxorade). Many team names in the game's background are spoofs as well such as the Orcland Raiders (Oakland Raiders) and the Darkside Cowboys (Dallas Cowboys). Famous sporting personalities are parodied as well, with the most famous (and oldest) coach in Blood Bowl's background being Tomolandry the Undying (Tom Landry), and one of the most recently added stars being the Ogre thrower, Brick Far'th (Brett Favre).

decker_cky wrote:
What world are you living in that 10 high quality models for a skirmish game don't cost $80?

*cough*

There is no reason a box of 10 Necromunda gangers, who would be on the same scale as Guardsmen, should cost more than a Tactical Squad box.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

decker_cky wrote:
What world are you living in that 10 high quality models for a skirmish game don't cost $80?

*cough*

There is no reason a box of 10 Necromunda gangers, who would be on the same scale as Guardsmen, should cost more than a Tactical Squad box.

You really need to look around a bit. Try buying 10 gangers from Heresy (they have some Delaque types). 25 of them will run you 92 GBP while on Mad Robot when he has his Van Saars available, it'll presumably be about $40. Raging Heroes sees what is basically an Escher Gang going for $122+. Prices are all over the place right now. I don't think $80 for JUST a gang will work but if it's a rulebook and 2 gangs for $120, I think people will bite.

EDIT:
Wait.. what?!?!?! Tactical Marines are how much now?!?!?

There's always a certain price vs percentage of force dichotomy.

You need lots more models in 40K, so the price needs to (should?) be lower, but if I were buying essentially a whole gang for Newcromunda or Modernheim, then if it were say, £40, but had kit options etc, it would feel better value, as it was a whole "army."

I'd even consider £50 if there were a LOT of options.

Aussie prices for Tactical Squads. $62 AUD, not USD.

Still depressing, though.

 MLaw wrote:
You really need to look around a bit. Try buying 10 gangers from Heresy (they have some Delaque types). 25 of them will run you 92 GBP while on Mad Robot when he has his Van Saars available, it'll presumably be about $40. Raging Heroes sees what is basically an Escher Gang going for $122+. Prices are all over the place right now. I don't think $80 for JUST a gang will work but if it's a rulebook and 2 gangs for $120, I think people will bite.

Individual metal miniatures from boutique modelling companies are in no way representative of mass produced plastic kits. Even the Raging Heroes boxed plastics don't compare to what GW can do with their production capabilities.

I own a lot of the Heresy miniature not-Delaques. They're worth the money. I bought a Pit Slave Gang and a Cawdor gang off eBay. Cost a fortune. Still worth it. But GW doing new ones would be different.

Furthermore, an Escher Gang from Raging Heroes isn't an Escher gang. It's completely unrelated models used to substitute in for models that are hard to come by. It is a false equivalency to say that the cost of them is in any way indicative of what GW gang prices would be.

It would be nice if these threads didn't always degenerate into whining about prices. Is there really anything left to say?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.

People rarely stop selling something because it is too successful (Flappy Bird aside), but that doesn't mean that something being dropped from a range automatically means that it sells badly. There are all sorts of reasons that companies can choose to drop popular products from their range, not least simply because of their chosen business strategy. (See WotC dropping Star Wars Miniatures despite it for a time outselling D&D, so that they could refocus their resources on D&D and MtG).

When the games that later became the 'Specialist' range were released, GW's standard business model was to run with their two core titles, and a third game that would be supported for a time and then replaced. It didn't matter how popular those third games were... once they hit the point where the next game was imminent, the current one would be dropped if it hadn't faded away on its own already.


The Specialist catalogue no doubt sold worse than the individual games did the first time around, but that would be down emtirely to lack of ongoing support and the fact that they were direct-only. Bringing back those games as rotating splash releases with updated rules and miniatures would, I suspect, do far better than adding a 'Specialist' tag on the website and then largely ignoring it did.

Off topic: Lots of things have stopped selling/companies have gone under because something was too successful. It can be a business killer to get too much success before you're able to handle it. Don't think that's what happened with the specialist games of course, but general statement.

On topic, all this is great news and I expect it will take several months to start seeing anything from it, but I'm excited.

Skipped the last 8 pages so idk if this has come up.

So i spoke with my local manager today, he got the memo, trouble is it says they will be looking into bringing back the older games.(as well as making new ones)

So someone could decide they are not viable and we wont see them again.

I want to be excited, but I'm really expecting nothing more than half-assed rules/support combined with a hefty price tag because nostalgia.

 MLaw wrote:

EDIT:
Wait.. what?!?!?! Tactical Marines are how much now?!?!?

Check the flag. You're using USD, he's linking you to the Australian site. (For extra coronary action, check the New Zealand site where they're 75 New Zealand dollars)

Edit: tentatively excited by this. I've been looking for a Necromunda style small skirmish game, so if Necromunda itself comes back (with campaign rules) I'm in whole hog.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If Newpic has the best 6mm minis made of all time it won't matter if a squadron of Land Raiders cost its (literal) weight in gold.

This was an issue with the last version of Epic, too. One of the models, the metal Thunderhawk Transporter was so effing expensive for misshapen bar of "not-lead" that people in AMERICA began spincasting copies. Not Russia, not China, but America. Seriously, you have got to be pricing out past Saturn's orbit if recasting by Americas can be profitable. And we're not even talking about the nicer looking FW version, either. And GW wondered why it didn't sell well.

I own well over 1200(yes. 1200+) blood bowl/fantasy football figures.
i would love to buy more. i just have to wonder how much a modern gw team would cost these days. when the last "new" gw teams were released, vamps, pro elves, last humans, they were, iirc, $50 or so.
and also, most teams these days are between 60-80usd. while there are indeed teams in the $100usd area, there are far more at the lower price.
black scorpion has some very nice teams for about $35usd.

Well we'll see what GW will do, just re-issues of the old game or a restart.

As a BFG fanboy, i will hope they will come out with a new boxed set, Admech vs Necrons? Eldar vs Space marines? Dark eldar vs imperials? Space marines vs Tyranids, Orks Vs Chaos or Squats Vs Slann? Just kidding oh and the tau they could use a redesign of their ships.

Chances of a re-issue of inquisitor will be slim, i think, i liked the 54mm figures, but a re-release for 28/32mm would be better

 Breotan wrote:
This was an issue with the last version of Epic, too. One of the models, the metal Thunderhawk Transporter was so effing expensive for misshapen bar of "not-lead" that people in AMERICA began spincasting copies. Not Russia, not China, but America. Seriously, you have got to be pricing out past Saturn's orbit if recasting by Americas can be profitable. And we're not even talking about the nicer looking FW version, either. And GW wondered why it didn't sell well.

Actually, yes, you are correct. The barrier to entry on Epic was shockingly bad.

 Bottle wrote:
Andy Chambers cited Gorkamorka as the worst game he created at GW. I wonder if that attitude exists still in GW HQ because Gorka never made it to "specialist game" status like the rest.

He also cited BFG as his best work at GW.

I'll probably be in the minority on this but I really didn't enjoy any of the specialist games. The mordheim/gorkamorka/necromunda rulesets weren't very good IMO and I owned one of them. Blood Bowl was cumbersome and boring (owned it) and Space Hulk really didn't feel like what I wanted from marines although there were some good mechanics in it (owned it). I never played the epic stuff so I can't comment on that but BFG was 1500's ships in space water and a much worse game system than other space ship rulesets of its time (although the minis were nice). I'm glad for other folks but personally none of the specialist stuff appealed to me. The only things I'd be interested in would be in Forgeworld started remaking their resin stuff as I'd like to pic up a few things for a hobby project I thought of 15 years ago that never got off the ground.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
I can't get Space Marines anywhere else.

Of course you can.





You can even get them in 6mm

but can you get space marines in 15mm?

bound for glory wrote:
I own well over 1200(yes. 1200+) blood bowl/fantasy football figures.
i would love to buy more. i just have to wonder how much a modern gw team would cost these days. when the last "new" gw teams were released, vamps, pro elves, last humans, they were, iirc, $50 or so.
and also, most teams these days are between 60-80usd. while there are indeed teams in the $100usd area, there are far more at the lower price.
black scorpion has some very nice teams for about $35usd.

I love me some bloodbowl (as my picture may imply) but cannot imagine having 60+ teams (based on rough numbers of 16 players and 4 staff per team) at any one time.

I tip my hat to you, and probably try to sneakily offer you some Southern Shrike Bowl miniatures to fuel your addiction hobby.

decker_cky wrote:
What world are you living in that 10 high quality models for a skirmish game don't cost $80? For that scale of game, that's kind of what you expect (that's pretty much on par with Malifaux, for example).

There's no reason why a 10 man House Cawdor/Redemptionist gang needs to cost more than a 10 man Kabalite Warrior or Wych squad. I'd argue the same is true of House Escher, at least - a good plastic kit would sell a ton to people wanting to bulk out their TGG Jailbirds with cheaper plastic rank and file on top of the usual fans, I'm sure. It's only once you hit the gangs that cannot be slotted straight into 40K or don't have a dedicated fanbase in their own right that the question of whether there is enough demand to support the plastic kit is not an unequivocal "Yes!"

decker_cky wrote:
Looking at blood bowl for example, in terms of third parties, 100 euros is pretty much the price you expect to pay for a full squad of 16. If GW do an excellent team, I'd probably pay a bit more than that.

Try these, for 35 USD.